How can we reconcile the argument of intelligent design with supposed design flaws?

[oldcelt]

There is certainly an element of chance in the outcome of events but to attribute all events to purposeless processes is self-contradictory. It would imply that all our conclusions lack a rational foundation and they too are fortuitous. :dts:

Omniscience+omnipotence+creative power= no element of chance.

John

 

[Peter_Plato]

So, let’s redefine reality to avoid the obvious.

John

The “obvious” is that suffering can, at times, be insufferable. That does not mean that suffering defines reality – far from it, in fact.

No one is seeking to “redefine” reality, just insisting that reality not be limited by the personal experience of suffering – which isn’t the defining characteristic of reality, even though to a person weakened by suffering it may take on that appearance.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Appeals that no reward can overcome suffering is an appeal to emotion and also an appeal to the limits of imagination, treating imagining as the same as conceiving.

No one suffered more than Job, except Jesus on the cross.

Job and Jesus might appear to have been victims of useless suffering.

But Job is rewarded for his suffering. Jesus is resurrected from the dead.

Those who see only useless suffering and count that as the be-all and end-all of a deeply flawed creation can only do this if they believe there is no light at the end of the tunnel.

Atheism is the philosophy of no light at the end of the tunnel.

 

[oldcelt]

No one suffered more than Job, except Jesus on the cross.

Job and Jesus might appear to have been victims of useless suffering.

But Job is rewarded for his suffering. Jesus is resurrected from the dead.

Those who see only useless suffering and count that as the be-all and end-all of a deeply flawed creation can only do this if they believe there is no light at the end of the tunnel.

Atheism is the philosophy of no light at the end of the tunnel.

Then there are those of us who believe the world is simply how it developed. It isn’t flawed, it just is the way it is. Suffering is an unavoidable consequence of having been born, though the severity in each case is random.

John

 

[Aloysium]

Because suffering is personal, it is not additive.
All the suffering of the entire universe boils down to the suffering of one individual.
The person who took on all humanity’s suffering is the Son of God.
Those who suffer will find repose in His most sacred heart.
Through Him we transcend the pain and are resurrected to a new life, here and in eternity.

 

[tonyrey]

Omniscience+omnipotence+creative power= no element of chance.John

Every physical universe has its limitations because sooner or later its immense complexity is bound to lead to unfortunate coincidences.

 

[tonyrey]

Then there are those of us who believe the world is simply how it developed. It isn’t flawed, it just is the way it is. Suffering is an unavoidable consequence of having been born, though the severity in each case is random.

John

The flaw in that argument is that it is self-destructive. If our conclusions are inevitable there is no guarantee they are true. There are far more ways of being mistaken than hitting the mark…

 

[tonyrey]

Appeals that no reward can overcome suffering is an appeal to emotion and also an appeal to the limits of imagination, treating imagining as the same as conceiving.

It is also based on the hedonistic assumption that suffering is the worst of all evils

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Because suffering is personal, it is not additive.
All the suffering of the entire universe boils down to the suffering of one individual.
The person who took on all humanity’s suffering is the Son of God.
Those who suffer will find repose in His most sacred heart.
Through Him we transcend the pain and are resurrected to a new life, here and in eternity.

Light at the end of the tunnel!

 

[oldcelt]

Every physical universe has its limitations because sooner or later its immense complexity is bound to lead to unfortunate coincidences.

I think I will just refer all of you back to Meltzerboy’s post.

John

 

[oldcelt]

The flaw in that argument is that it is self-destructive. If our conclusions are inevitable there is no guarantee they are true. There are far more ways of being mistaken than hitting the mark…

Tony,
You know, that in my belief system, nothing is inevitable. It is under the Christian God that such a thing becomes problematic.

Be well,

John

 

[GEddie]

Thank you Meltzerboy. God is a great forward thinker and I am not a design fault!!!

Almost all the other posters have been finnicking about somebody else’s world (Pelagians all).

Methinks, Meltzerboy, you have a strength that we goyim do not: namely, the age-old Jewish talent for arguing with God; we don’t have that; in 100 generations since the life of Yeshua Ben Joseph, the best we have come up with is “shut up and be humble.”

And are surprised when that doesn’t do much good.

Shalom!

ICXC NIKA

 

[tonyrey]

The flaw in that argument is that it is self-destructive. If our conclusions are inevitable there is no guarantee they are true. There are far more ways of being mistaken than hitting the mark…

If nothing is inevitable there is no reason for anything, everything is absurd and in Hamlet’s words “the rest is silence”… Nevertheless I wish you well too, John.

 

[meltzerboy]

Methinks, Meltzerboy, you have a strength that we goyim do not: namely, the age-old Jewish talent for arguing with God; we don’t have that; in 100 generations since the life of Yeshua Ben Joseph, the best we have come up with is “shut up and be humble.”

And are surprised when that doesn’t do much good.

Shalom!

ICXC NIKA

Who can be better or more worthy of arguing with than G-d?

 

[tonyrey]

Tony,
You know, that in my belief system, nothing is inevitable. It is under the Christian God that such a thing becomes problematic.

John, On what ground do you base your assumption that nothing whatsoever is inevitable?

 

[oldcelt]

John, On what ground do you base your assumption that nothing whatsoever is inevitable?

For something to be inevitable…except for something like death…would require an outside influence that is capable of great cruelty. Since I have never observed anything that I would categorize as divine intervention, I choose to believe in a creator that set the whole thing in motion and let the chips fall where they may.
What I do observe seems to fit very well with random chance…to whom we are born, where, our general health, etc., with a great deal of what occurs in our lives associated with total free will. I can no longer envision the God I was force-fed in my youth.
Each of us makes a choice regarding our beliefs regarding a creator. After extensive reading and contemplation, I arrived at my beliefs. I feel quite confident that you did much the same…we just arrived at different conclusions about the unseen.

John

 

[inocente]

How can we reconcile the argument of intelligent design with supposed design flaws?

Just take the argument to its logical conclusion.

Every minute of every day, somewhere a child below the age of three dies of diarrhea. What was he designed to do? To break his mother’s heart. What was his mother designed to do? To have her heart broken.

Some people are designed to ignore that suffering. Others to smother it with platitudes. Still others to excuse it. Everyone fulfills their own design objectives. There are no design flaws. Taken to its logical conclusion, the intelligent design argument is nihilism perfected. We’re all robots driven by fate to fulfill our personal design specifications.

Or perhaps God isn’t in the image of a human designer, and we’re more than form following function.

Or was I designed to say that?

 

[tonyrey]

For something to be inevitable…except for something like death…would require an outside influence that is capable of great cruelty.

Do you regard all suffering as avoidable? Why is death an exception?

Since I have never observed anything that I would categorize as divine intervention, I choose to believe in a creator that set the whole thing in motion and let the chips fall where they may.

Was it inevitable that the Creator set the whole thing in motion?

What I do observe seems to fit very well with random chance…to whom we are born, where, our general health, etc., with a great deal of what occurs in our lives associated with total free will. I can no longer envision the God I was force-fed in my youth.

Each of us makes a choice regarding our beliefs regarding a creator. After extensive reading and contemplation, I arrived at my beliefs. I feel quite confident that you did much the same…we just arrived at different conclusions about the unseen.

I respect your freedom to choose your beliefs, of course, there is no evidence but freedom has been by produced by inanimate molecules which lack intelligence and the ability to believe, let alone choose what to believe. There is no need to go in details because the immense gulf between mind and matter is insurmountable.

 

[oldcelt]

Do you regard all suffering as avoidable? Why is death an exception?The suffering that is caused purely by our own stupidity could be avoided, i.e. unnecessary war, murder, injustice.

Was it inevitable that the Creator set the whole thing in motion?I don’t think so

I respect your freedom to choose your beliefs, of course, there is no evidence but freedom has been by produced by inanimate molecules which lack intelligence and the ability to believe, let alone choose what to believe. There is no need to go in details because the immense gulf between mind and matter is insurmountable.

Actually, there is quite a bit of visible, tangible evidence for the evolutionary process; a process that eventually resulted in sentience. Like all other searches, it takes time, effort, and a final decision by the searcher as to what makes the most sense and best fits the evidence. I moved away from a omni this omni that creator, because it does not fit the evidence, to me.

John

 

[Charlemagne_III]

I respect your freedom to choose your beliefs, of course, there is no evidence but freedom has been by produced by inanimate molecules which lack intelligence and the ability to believe, let alone choose what to believe. There is no need to go in details because the immense gulf between mind and matter is insurmountable.

Mystery of mysteries.

Amen.