How can we reconcile the argument of intelligent design with supposed design flaws?

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oldcelt said:
Total knowledge of all design flaws, all future suffering of each individual, the fate of each individual. Why would a loving God create an individual only to have it be born with a terminal and hideous illness?
That is the burden of omniscience…if a deity possesses it and takes an active role among its creation, there has to come a great deal of responsibility. Add in all the other omnis ascribed to the Christian God, and it makes for a very difficult defense for much of the suffering we see in this world.
Remove omniscience and direct involvement, and it makes a great deal more logical sense…at least it does to me.

John
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Seems that these are more human issues than Gods.
 
tonyrey said:
Irrefutable. It is easy to criticise but to create a universe so immense and full of opportunities for development, fulfilment and enjoyment is a far more formidable exercise. Negativity leads precisely nowhere!
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Exactly. A positive mindset is required for solving problems. As far as “design flaws,” I can only say that I know people who have various conditions. Creation itself fell into a certain state.

“For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others–and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.” Matthew 19:12 NIV

Man was created in a state of perfection. Then he fell.

Ed
 
DCNBILL said:
Seems that these are more human issues than Gods.
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I fail to see how since the Christian God created all with perfect foreknowledge of the outcome. On items such as war and injustice, we agree…aside from that, it would fall at the feet of the creator…if I still believed in one with all the various omnis.

John
 
God could have sufficient reasons for allowing flaws in his creation
 
oldcelt said:
I fail to see how since the Christian God created all with perfect foreknowledge of the outcome. On items such as war and injustice, we agree…aside from that, it would fall at the feet of the creator…if I still believed in one with all the various omnis.

John
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Do you not find it amazing that all the cells in your body want to serve you? These cells don’t exist for their own sake but for a higher purpose. Your thoughts are not edifying brain cells. It’s not like your millions of brain cells have thoughts of their own. Yet, you exist as a single mind despite having millions of these cells. Just who is the you they are serving?
 
fisherman_carl said:
Do you not find it amazing that all the cells in your body want to serve you? These cells don’t exist for their own sake but for a higher purpose. Your thoughts are not edifying brain cells. It’s not like your millions of brain cells have thoughts of their own. Yet, you exist as a single mind despite having millions of these cells. Just who is the you they are serving?
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DNA is the operating system of life. It gives instructions to all the component parts of a life-form regarding each one’s role. This has already been observed, and we have only just begun to understand its complexities.

John
 
Charlemagne_III said:
Mystery of mysteries. 👍

Amen.
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Regardless of what we believe we all implicitly trust our mind rather than our brain to reach our conclusions. There is no evidence whatsoever that electrical signals alone are sufficient to explain consciousness and understanding.
 
oldcelt said:
DNA is the operating system of life. It gives instructions to all the component parts of a life-form regarding each one’s role. This has already been observed, and we have only just begun to understand its complexities.

John
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Is it likely that such an immensely complex system of communication is fortuitous?
 
oldcelt said:
DNA is the operating system of life. It gives instructions to all the component parts of a life-form regarding each one’s role. This has already been observed, and we have only just begun to understand its complexities.

John
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So are you saying DNA is the real you? Is DNA thinking your thoughts? Doesn’t DNA serve a higher purpose to? It serves you just like the cells.
 
oldcelt said:
Then again. He may not.

John
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Is it likely perfection could exist in a physical universe?

385 God is infinitely good and all his works are good. Yet no one can escape the experience of suffering or the evils in nature which seem to be linked to** the limitations** proper to creatures: and above all to the question of moral evil.
 
tonyrey said:
👍 Incisive and conclusive!
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It is not thinking for me, but it is like the Windows or Mac OS for life. All life has it, and it performs the same function: getting disparate parts to function for the greater good. Do I think that consciousness is in there somewhere? Probably
One thing for certain, the more complex the animal, the more complex the DNA.
 
tonyrey said:
Is it likely perfection could exist in a physical universe? No

385 God is infinitely good and all his works are good. Yet no one can escape the experience of suffering or the evils in nature which seem to be linked to** the limitations** proper to creatures: and above all to the question of moral evil.
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oldcelt said:
DNA is the operating system of life. It gives instructions to all the component parts of a life-form regarding each one’s role. This has already been observed, and we have only just begun to understand its complexities.

John
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The higher the degree of complexity the higher the improbability of a fortuitous origin…
 
fisherman_carl said:
Do you not find it amazing that all the cells in your body want to serve you? These cells don’t exist for their own sake but for a higher purpose. Your thoughts are not edifying brain cells. It’s not like your millions of brain cells have thoughts of their own. Yet, you exist as a single mind despite having millions of these cells. Just who is the you they are serving?
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They don’t want to serve anyone. Each cell, indeed every single component of you, finds itself in a situation where it survives. They don’t want to survive. They just happen to be in a fortuitous position. Those that aren’t, don’t survive.

They serve no teleological purpose.

Your amazement that the cells ‘serve some purpose’ is akin to being amazed that fish can breathe under water.

And your brain cells? Well a computer is one of the simplest machines ever invented. It just sorts things into yes or no. A one or a zero. It couldn’t be any simpler. It’s just the speed at which it does it which is impressive. Have enough ‘gates’ and you can do anything (assuming the software is up to the task).

Your brain is just a computer. It takes in information, stores some of it, sorts it and give a result. What it stores is you. When it gives a result, that is you thinking.

it’s not even very efficient. But it serves it’s purpose. Just remember GIGO.
 
Bradski said:
And your brain cells? Well a computer is one of the simplest machines ever invented. It just sorts things into yes or no. A one or a zero. It couldn’t be any simpler. It’s just the speed at which it does it which is impressive. Have enough ‘gates’ and you can do anything (assuming the software is up to the task).
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If the computer was one of the simplest things ever invented, that does not stop us from recognizing that it was invented (intelligently designed).

But the computer was invented by stages of reasoning … not by irreducible complexity.

The first living organism did not appear in stages, but appeared all at once … irreducibly complex.

The complexity of the first living organism was therefore intelligently designed.

Even Francis Crick was incredulous, when he discovered DNA, that it was not planted here on Earth by aliens who first seeded life here because it seemed so highly improbable to him that it could have come into existence by mere happenstance.
 
Bradski said:
They don’t want to serve anyone. Each cell, indeed every single component of you, finds itself in a situation where it survives. They don’t want to survive. They just happen to be in a fortuitous position. Those that aren’t, don’t survive.

They serve no teleological purpose.

Your amazement that the cells ‘serve some purpose’ is akin to being amazed that fish can breathe under water.
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It doesn’t amaze you? You should be flabbergasted that the human body works so well and so consistently. Especially when you believe the cell has no higher purpose then to exist in a fortuitios situation. Explain to me how you have a rational center of conscious thought from independent lucky cells?
And your brain cells? Well a computer is one of the simplest machines ever invented. It just sorts things into yes or no. A one or a zero. It couldn’t be any simpler. It’s just the speed at which it does it which is impressive. Have enough ‘gates’ and you can do anything (assuming the software is up to the task).
Click to expand...
Your brain is just a computer. It takes in information, stores some of it, sorts it and give a result. What it stores is you. When it gives a result, that is you thinking.
Click to expand...
it’s not even very efficient. But it serves it’s purpose. Just remember GIGO.
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I don’t buy the argument that the brain is a computer. Now, in some ways the brain may be compared to a computer. But, they are very different. A brain is far superior to a computer. For one a person who has a brain is alive. Whereas a computer is simply materials that are being manipulated by a human mind to serve a function, like any man made machine.
 
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