How can we reconcile the argument of intelligent design with supposed design flaws?

[CHRISTINE77]

Adam Sandler definitely by chance, but Helen Mirren by design.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

The usual cliché from the anti-design folks is that things only appear to be designed.

How is it not just as valid to offer that things only appear not to be designed?

 

[Aloysium]

. . . do you think that God created the universe without designing it?

My view is that the beginning was not that different from every other moment in time.
The same way that the universe took shape a “day” at a time, ontologically we have layer atop of layer.
The entire structure of the universe exists, brought into being by Existence itself.

Its central purpose, reflecting the nature of its Creator, is love.
We are created to be other to God and unite with Him in Love.

This drama of our lives takes place within a physical universe of which we are a part.
Among the other parts, interwoven with other elements of the environment, ever changing, are living beings and quasi-living structures like the virus.

God’s design most assuredly, as a part of His creation, includes the Zika virus.
This does not constitute His main purpose, although it does plays a role in His purpose, as Fred points out above:

I don’t think we can say that God . . . deliberately designed this particular mosquitoe . . . this mosquitoe is one of the works we have to do by eliminating him. . .

 

[inocente]

The simple answer is that Design does not imply the total absence of flaws.

Sorry. that may be a simple answer to you but it doesn’t tell me anything. I’m trying to understand what you think was designed and when you think it was designed, so will you please tell me?

 

[inocente]

So you don’t like to answer questions? Just ask them?

You told me to refer to Genesis, which sounded like you’re a young earth creationist who interprets Genesis literally. I wanted you to confirm or deny that, which is why I asked you “So do you think God is still designing? For example, is the zika virus God’s design?”

So please say to what extent you take Genesis literally, and whether you think God is still designing. I’m just trying to understand the explicit hypothesis that you’re putting forward.

So do you think that God created the universe without designing it?

I believe God is greater than what we can conceive, and thinking of Him as a designer belittles Him.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

The simple answer is that Design does not imply the total absence of flaws.

A design without flaws is what you get in heaven.

A design with nothing but flaws is what you get in hell.

A design with virtues and flaws is what you get on earth.

We have to live with that and learn to choose heaven over hell.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

I believe God is greater than what we can conceive, and thinking of Him as a designer belittles Him.

Yes, God is greater than we can conceive, but he tells us a little about himself in Scripture.

We are told in Genesis he designed and created the universe. I believe this.

Why can you not say outright you also believe it?

After all, we have to talk about God in language that makes sense.

If you believe God did not design and create the universe, just say so.

I don’t see how it belittles God to say he designed and created the universe.

Please don’t hide behind the agnostic you are trying to become.

 

[tonyrey]

Design does not imply that everything

Value and significance are not determined by size or quantity. Positive aspects of reality like the beauty of a butterfly and the harmony in nature are designed. Negative aspects like disease and disasters are caused by unfortunate coincidences like exposure to radiation or being in an earthquake zone.

 

[inocente]

I don’t think we can say that God sat down one evening, and by candle light, took out his pen and deliberately designed this particular mosquitoe and said “Ah, there at last I’ve got them.”

I think what we can say is that we were removed out of Paradise and were warned that our work and life would be stressful and by the sweat of our brow. And now this mosquitoe is one of the works we have to do by eliminating him. God never forbade us to work hard and make our life better. He just said it would be hard.

I’m just trying to find out what posters mean by intelligent design. Just a straightforward statement of what they think was/is designed, whether the design took place over a period, and so on.

I mean I’m very clear on what I believe - that nothing in nature was designed. I’d have thought people who disagree should be equally able to clearly and succinctly state what they believe.

 

[openmind77]

In your opinion are all things by chance?

Is your post above by chance or by design?

My post is definitely my design - I don’t want to blame anyone else for it.

I think only the initial framework of creation is by design (the laws of physics, laws of thermodynamics, the five basic elements of nature etc), the rest of creation is by chance. Of course, God may intervene occasionally - for instance to get rid of dinosaurs.

However, if you think everything is design, what is the purpose of creating something like the zika or HIV or smallpox virus?

 

[CHRISTINE77]

My post is definitely my design - I don’t want to blame anyone else for it.

I think only the initial framework of creation is by design (the laws of physics, laws of thermodynamics, the five basic elements of nature etc), the rest of creation is by chance. Of course, God may intervene occasionally - for instance to get rid of dinosaurs.

However, if you think everything is design, what is the purpose of creating something like the zika or HIV or smallpox virus?

How can we know? Perhaps it is so mankind will try to find an answer to the problem of the flaws, or there may be a very important purpose for viruses and sicknesses that we are unaware of. You can be sure everything on this earth is here by design. God made it all.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

However, if you think everything is design, what is the purpose of creating something like the zika or HIV or smallpox virus?

Might as well add to that … What is the purpose of creating death?

To keep us on our toes preparing for eternal life?

 

[Charlemagne_III]

My post is definitely my design - I don’t want to blame anyone else for it.

Good idea. If any part of your post was flawed, I’d be inclined to overlook it.

As you could overlook any part of God’s design you don’t like.

 

[openmind77]

How can we know? Perhaps it is so mankind will try to find an answer to the problem of the flaws, or there may be a very important purpose for viruses and sicknesses that we are unaware of. You can be sure everything on this earth is here by design. God made it all.

So we definitely know that God designed the Zika virus and but we don’t know why he did it?

I am not really sure that a God who deliberately designs a Zika virus is a very loving God. I just can’t think of a good motive for doing such a thing. The occurrence of the virus by chance seems far more likely and logical.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

So we definitely know that God designed the Zika virus and but we don’t know why he did it?

I am not really sure that a God who deliberately designs a Zika virus is a very loving God. I just can’t think of a good motive for doing such a thing. The occurrence of the virus by chance seems far more likely and logical.

Well, you are entitled to your opinion.

 

[openmind77]

Might as well add to that … What is the purpose of creating death?

To keep us on our toes preparing for eternal life?

Death may be unfortunate or even tragic, but it is not malevolent. Death is also inevitable because physical bodies will wear out eventually.

But to deliberately create a virus is not inevitable - it should have a purpose if it was created by design. If we claim everything is by design, we need at least be able to guess at the reason for each thing…

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Death may be unfortunate or even tragic, but it is not malevolent. Death is also inevitable because physical bodies will wear out eventually.

But to deliberately create a virus is not inevitable - it should have a purpose if it was created by design. If we claim everything is by design, we need at least be able to guess at the reason for each thing…

Good luck with that!

 

[tonyrey]

The simple answer is that Design does not imply the total absence of flaws.

**Positive **aspects of reality like the beauty of a butterfly and the harmony in nature are designed.

**Negative **aspects like disease and disasters are caused by unfortunate coincidences like exposure to radiation or being in an earthquake zone.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

I am not really sure that a God who deliberately designs a Zika virus is a very loving God. I just can’t think of a good motive for doing such a thing.

The same motive for designing death. This life is only a preparation for the next.

That is why God is still a very loving God who gives us every chance to be redeemed.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Death may be unfortunate or even tragic, but it is not malevolent.

Neither is God malevolent since he offers us life everlasting with him if we want it.

But we have to die first to get it.

And most of the ways we die are not fun at all.

Not sure the Zika virus is the worst way to die.