I know I asked this about 60 posts ago, but I’m still waiting for an answer. This is actually not an irrelevant point as the comment is frequently made that neither party fully satisfies church teaching in the positions they have chosen as if their failures were somehow comparable. While it may be true that neither could be considered a “Catholic” party it is not true that their shortcomings are equivalent.TMC:
Name one specific policy proposal the church has said or implied that we have a moral duty to support.
Show me where the Church has ever said this.
I see you have evaded my question again, that I asked in response to an assertion you made which, as I’ve pointed out, you cannot defend.
To be fair, we have both made assertions that cannot be conclusively proven. I say that the teaching of the Church shows clearly that Catholics have a moral duty to support certain policies. You disagree. You say that the teachings of the Church say that the GOP is entirely in line with the Church. I disagree. The Church has not expressly made either point. I think my point is much more strongly supported by the Church’s teaching than yours, but neither of us will concede because the Church has not formally made either statement. I would invite anyone that wants to make their own decision to read the relevant Church documents and come to their own conclusion - but the answer is frankly pretty obvious.
This is what I dispute, and unless you can cite even one example of such a policy I don’t see how this could be true.
What I said was that there is no teaching that is explicitly contradicted by GOP policies.
Nor is it reasonable to assume she would ever do so. That is a conclusion we can reasonably draw from what is known about church teaching and what the parties platforms are.
I would say the conclusion is anything but obvious inasmuch as I think you’ve gotten it wrong. Here’s the point: there are specific doctrines the policies of the Dems directly contradict; the obvious ones are abortion, euthanasia, and gay “marriage”. Is there a single doctrine contradicted by a GOP policy? I have said there is not, and neither you nor anyone else has provided an example to contradict that claim.
It is absurd, which is a pretty good explanation of why no one has actually made such a claim.
You make the obvious point that one can make immoral choices because ones intentions are immoral, what you have not done is even suggest an example of one such policy the GOP has proposed.
LOL, so I have to show where the Church has explicitly said what I have asserted, but you can just say that the Church does not allow folks to vote Dem without source?
I was careful to say not to read more into my comments than is there, but that apparently didn’t do any good. I have not made a single comment about voting so you clearly aren’t responding to what I’ve said. Nor have I challenged you to cite what the church has said about either party. I explicitly rejected that as a reasonable expectation. My challenge was to you, not the church. I asked you to cite a single example to support your contention that there are GOP policies that are contrary to church doctrine.
No, you can’t. And the reason you can’t is because while the church says things like “help the poor” she says nothing whatever about how that should be done, and it is the “how it should be done” question that distinguishes the two parties. You assume it is the policy proposals that separates those who care from those who don’t when actually the difference is caused by a difference of belief about what will accomplish the goals.
The GOP’s positions on all the things I mentioned are contrary to the Church’s teachings. That is why I mentioned those specific teachings.
You didn’t mention anything specific. You alluded to the general objectives and guidelines defined by church doctrines, but those are the objectives, the goals policies are meant to achieve.
Well, there we have an example right there. You agree that the bishops take a stance on immigration that you disagree with. You know the Pope has directly criticized Trump’s immigration policies. But you choose to decide to ignore those things and therefore pretend the GOP’s positions are all consistent with the Church, when they clearly are not. That is just one example. I have pointed to others (whether you admit that or not).
That’s the reason I first posted in this thread, when I usually try to avoid the political fray. I don’t mind it when my fellow Catholics declare whoever it is they’re voting for. That’s their choice. But when they insist on getting other Catholics like me to vote their way, and especially when they try to use what I see as blackmail tactics, like declaring we’re risking our eternal salvation if we don’t vote their particular way, I cannot abide with that, not when the Church clearly teaches otherwise. How dare anyone assume that I or any one of us have not considered all the issues when it comes to voting? I put much thought and prayer into aligning my vote with what the Church allows, and what I know to be right, when I consider the position, qualifications and past record of each candidate.
Again, this statement is really an admission. You admit that the Pope and the bishops disagree with the GOP’s policies, but you reject their view and decide that instead your opinion reflects Church teaching (despite the fact that they have teaching authority and you do not). If every Catholic gets to decide that his or her own opinion controls, then I suppose any Catholic can support anything. If we follow what the Church actually says, then its clear that neither party is consistent with Church teaching.