How can you be Democratic and also be Catholic?

[LeafByNiggle]

pnewton:

but this sentence only applies to those who want to keep legalized abortion.

but that is exactly what you are doing by voting for Biden/Harris

Not necessarily. It is likely that abortion will be kept legal regardless of who is elected, and one can vote for Biden/Harris not for the purpose of keeping abortion legal, but for the purpose of preventing an existential threat to the nation - as the voter sees it. I’m not going to argue about how someone might come to that view, only that such a view is a possible, and permissible view to hold.

 

[gjp111]

The link to the document that you are referring to is below. Reducing the non-negotiable s to only 5 issues is not in line with the US Bishops council or with Church teaching. Statements that the other non-negotiable s are “inconveniences” demonstrate a gross lack of empathy for those who are suffering those non-negotiable s. How would we feel if our young children were taken away from us and placed in another holding location with no communications with them? How would we feel if someone told us that the horror that we were experiencing was just an “inconvenience” that could be dealt with later?

Don’t get me wrong. Abortion, euthanasia are evil and must be stopped. However the Church calls us to be proponents of life from cradle to natural death. It is much more than a single or 5 selected issues. Catholics must develop and nurture a well informed conscience and then use that to determine which candidate (not political party) and which issues to support.

God Bless

Forming Consciences for Faithful Citizenship
A Call to Political Responsibility from the Catholic Bishops of the United States

https://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/faithful-citizenship/upload/forming-consciences-for-faithful-citizenship.pdf

 

[MagdalenaRita]

but for the purpose of preventing an existential threat to the nation - as the voter sees it.

I believe there would need to be a without a doubt, threat that the nation is a fact in absolute danger of such a thing. It would probably need to also include a greater loss of life than what happens with abortion since human life always comes first.

We are not in that type of danger, as of right now anyhow but if that is a concern, it would be good to remember that the Democratic party has taken God out of their platform and has in it’s platform items that are contrary to Scripture and the Catholic faith.

So, to me this is just one more reason to not vote Democrat.

Psalm 9:18 says: The wicked shall be turned into hell, all the nations that forget God.

Abortion, euthanasia are evil and must be stopped. However the Church calls us to be proponents of life from cradle to natural death.

Immigration and other issues, yes must be seriously considered though most people in these situations have voices and choices. Unborn babies do not and that is why the Church has made it the top priority. You can be sure that if the politicians do not care about the unborn who have no choice or voice, they are not going to care about others either

 

[JimG]

It seems that the USCCB document contains sufficient wiggle room to allow multiple Catholics to come to opposite conclusions citing the same document. How is that useful?

 

[LeafByNiggle]

LeafByNiggle:

but for the purpose of preventing an existential threat to the nation - as the voter sees it.

I believe there would need to be a without a doubt, threat that the nation is a fact in absolute danger of such a thing.

When it comes to opinions about existential threats, there is no such thing as absolute. A sincere belief is good enough.

It would probably need to also include a greater loss of life than what happens with abortion since human life always comes first.

That would only be true if that loss of life was sure to be prevented by voting for Trump. There is no evidence that is the case. We have had 4 years of Trump and abortion is still legal. There is a good chance that it will still be legal if he is given another 4 years.

We are not in that type of danger, as of right now anyhow…

That is a matter of opinion on which people do disagree.

So, to me this is just one more reason to not vote Democrat.

I’m glad you qualified that with “to me.”

 

[MagdalenaRita]

When it comes to opinions about existential threats, there is no such thing as absolute. A sincere belief is good enough.

There needs to be a definite evidence that a country is going out of existence. That just isn’t evident right now. A sincere belief is not enough. Catholics must form their belief and conscience on the truths of the Faith, the priorities put in place by the Church, and what is actually happening in the world.

We have had 4 years of Trump and abortion is still legal. There is a good chance that it will still be legal if he is given another 4 years.

There is a “chance” if he is elected but it is guaranteed to continue to be legal if Biden/Harris are elected. Not only legal but paid for by our tax dollars and funding for Planned Parenthood would rise back and beyond what it was before President Trump.

I’m glad you qualified that with “to me.”

Yes, and one in which I think should definitely be considered by others.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

LeafByNiggle:

When it comes to opinions about existential threats, there is no such thing as absolute. A sincere belief is good enough.

There needs to be a definite evidence that a country is going out of existence.

I disagree.

Catholics must form their belief and conscience on the truths of the Faith and what is actually true.

On matters of faith and morals, the Church does specific what we must believe. On matters of who will win the Kentucky Derby, or whether the nation is likely to degenerate into a fascist nightmare, the Church leaves us free to decide those opinions for ourselves.

We have had 4 years of Trump and abortion is still legal. There is a good chance that it will still be legal if he is given another 4 years.

There is a “chance” if he is elected but it is guaranteed to continue to be legal if Biden/Harris are elected.

I would say the chance is so slim that it is almost the same as voting for Biden.

I think if we really want to end abortion we should start with changing the hearts and minds of to women who make that choice. If they stop choosing abortion, there will be no abortion.

 

[upant]

However the Church calls us to be proponents of life from cradle to natural death

St. Pope John Paul II is clear on it (bold mine)

The inviolability of the person which is a reflection of the absolute inviolability of God, fínds its primary and fundamental expression in the inviolability of human life. Above all, the common outcry, which is justly made on behalf of human rights-for example, the right to health, to home, to work, to family, to culture- is false and illusory if the right to life, the most basic and fundamental right and the condition for all other personal rights, is not defended with maximum determination.

the bishops made abortion first for a reason, I think 600,000+ reasons

the USCCB document contains sufficient wiggle room

it really doesn’t

people just interpret it that way. the bishops can not say don’t vote for someone who is pro-abortion because what if both candidates are pro-abortion? you would not be able to vote in most elections. this is why they included proportionate reasoning, we have to vote for the one who would do the least harm to the unborn.

example
one politician wants to keep it legal but with restrictions and the other wants to keep legal, expand it into every state and pay for it. obviously we would vote for the one who would restrict it and not expand it.

however, people want to claim the bishops give them wiggle room to vote for abortion,

a vote for a Democrat is a vote to expand abortion whether you agree with abortion or not.

God have mercy on the sacrificed unborn

 

[phil3]

care for the poor, immigration, the environment, racial justice, worker’s rights, income inequality, and lots of other issues and see pretty clearly how the parties line up on those issues.

The GOP’s positions on all the things I mentioned are contrary to the Church’s teachings. That is why I mentioned those specific teachings.

It is your opinion the GOP doesnt care about these issues. We do care, it is the policies and how to resolve these issues.

You clearly believe that government is the solution.

There are people in the federal government that have been there 30, 40, and 50 years. These problems have never been solved and their only answer is elect me to another 2 years, 6 years, or as President and I will solve these problems.

In 1912 Woodrow Wilson in a speech said, It is time the rich pay their fair share. Politicians are still saying it today. 108 years later.

If the solution is to take from someone to give to another, your solution will not work. This country has been trying just that since the income tax was created and the only people it helped were the elected officials over the past 100 plus years

 

[MagdalenaRita]

On matters of faith and morals, the Church does specific what we must believe. On matters of who will win the Kentucky Derby…

We can separate our faith from the Kentucky Derby, we can not separate our faith from voting. We should be voting our faith and morals because that is what will be for the common good of the nation.

I would say the chance is so slim that it is almost the same as voting for Biden.

Well, we are definitely going to have to agree to disagree here. President Trump, as very many priests and nuns have said, is the most pro-life President we have. It is like they are telling us, now, at this moment we have a chance to do something about abortion.

Biden has gone very far left in promoting abortion. He has become a puppet in the hands of the feminists. He is the most pro-abortion candidate.

I think if we really want to end abortion we should start with changing the hearts and minds of to women who make that choice. If they stop choosing abortion, there will be no abortion.

In all charity, how long will that take? Where do we start? How do you change the minds of the feminists promoting abortion and career first over human life. When will we see their hearts changed? How do we change the hearts of high school girls and boys who are being told abortion is okay? How do we right now change the hearts of all those working in Planned Parenthood? Will we accomplish this within the next four years? Before November 3rd?

Now is the time of decision. Now is the moment we have.

Also, the pro-life movement has been working tirelessly on this but they have opposition. Our vote can change that.

 

[Annie]

I would say the chance is so slim that it is almost the same as voting for Biden.

The issue for me is that of the make-up of the Supreme Court. We need Roe v Wade to be reversed because as long as abortion is seen as a right, we will not be able to get laws passed against it.

This is not to say that we should not work on educating people, but as long as it is legal, there will be people who have abortions.

We should work on both.

TBH, at this point in politics, I think this election will be the last one in which I vote between R and D. I would prefer to vote for 3rd parties and look forward to the time when my vote is not determined by the question of who will be appointed to the SC.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

LeafByNiggle:

On matters of faith and morals, the Church does specific what we must believe. On matters of who will win the Kentucky Derby…

We can separate our faith from the Kentucky Derby, we can not separate our faith from voting.

But we can separate our faith from our opinion of whether or not the nation is headed for a fascist nightmare, which was my point.

We should be voting our faith and morals because that is what will be for the common good of the nation.

Avoiding a fascist state is also for the common good.

I would say the chance is so slim that it is almost the same as voting for Biden.

Well, we are definitely going to have to agree to disagree here. President Trump, as very many priests and nuns have said, is the most pro-life President we have.

So Mr. Trump says. But even if he is the most pro-life President we have every had, I still don’t think 4 more years of Trump will end abortion. At best it might result in overturning Roe v Wade, which would return the issue to the states. And most of the states (at this point in time) are very unlikely to ban abortion. What would happen then is that women will just travel to the states where it is legal, or find an underground abortionist. We already have fewer abortions per year than before Roe v Wade. So I don’t think much is to be gained by electing Trump again. I won’t try to convince you of my opinion, but it is an opinion that I can have without violating any Church teaching.

Biden has gone very far left in promoting abortion.

He has never promoted abortion per se. He has never said it is a good thing and women should do it. That would be promotion. He has never done that. The only thing he has promoted is keeping it available.

He is the most pro-abortion candidate.

Every year we hear the same thing. Whoever is the Democratic candidate is the most pro-abortion candidate ever.

I think if we really want to end abortion we should start with changing the hearts and minds of to women who make that choice. If they stop choosing abortion, there will be no abortion.

In all charity, how long will that take?

We can start today. We don’t need to wait until Roe v Wade is overturned and all the states ban it. We can start it by taking away one of the reasons for abortion - fear of financial ruin - by providing guaranteed pre-natal care and delivery services to all at no charge regardless of the complications. We pay for the kid’s education in public schools. Why shouldn’t we pay for the kid to be born? I think this will change a lot of hearts and minds right away. Conversely, if we don’t change hearts and minds first, it will be like prohibition, where a law is passed that the people don’t support. People will find a way around it. So changing hearts and minds is the only thing that is guaranteed to work.

 

[phil3]

But let’s be honest, if Trump is re-elected there will be rioting in the streets. Cities will burn. If Biden wins the same people rioting and burning cities will continue to do the same. These people are just violent people and want a french style revolution to happen here. They would have no problem lopping off people’s heads, just not theirs.

Just read the novel 1984, it is happening today.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

In all charity:

Avoiding a fascist state is also for the common good.

I do not believe we are headed for a fascist state but even if we were headed that way under President Trump, how long is that going to last? There will be another Democratic vs Republican election in 4 years that will end what you consider a fascist state. His term would be over.

That said, human life comes before 4 years of what one considers a fascist state.

At best it might result in overturning Roe v Wade

That would be awesome, even if it did go to the states. Think how many lives will be saved.

I won’t try to convince you of my opinion, but it is an opinion that I can have without violating any Church teaching.

I disagree here and so do very many Catholics priests who are called to shepherd us.

The only thing he has promoted is keeping it available.

To me that is like saying, “I don’t believe stealing is morally right, but I won’t take away the thief’s right to steal” and then promote laws that allow stealing. It’s not right for the victim.

Every year we hear the same thing. Whoever is the Democratic candidate is the most pro-abortion candidate ever.

Yes, because they keep moving farther left. Clinton thought they should be safe, legal and rare. That thought is long gone. (though he did legalize partial birth abortion, which Bush stopped)

fear of financial ruin - by providing guaranteed pre-natal care and delivery services to all at no charge regardless of the complications. We pay for the kid’s education in public schools. Why shouldn’t we pay for the kid to be born? I think this will change a lot of hearts and minds right away.

I won’t say much about this because we have discussed it before, but paying for delivery is not a major reason for abortion.

We pay for the kid’s education in public schools. Why shouldn’t we pay for the kid to be born?

That is a possibility to pay for the child’s delivery but one thing to remember is these things are paid for in taxes. Many people have difficulty paying the taxes they have now. It could just end up going from one poor person to another.

Conversely, if we don’t change hearts and minds first, it will be like prohibition, where a law is passed that the people don’t support. People will find a way around it.

There will always be laws people do not support and find ways around.

So changing hearts and minds is the only thing that is guaranteed to work.

This definitely should be done but voting Democrat will not do that because it will only appear that Catholics support abortion, giving the opinion that it is okay.

 

[phil3]

Avoiding a fascist state is also for the common good.

Trump is not the one leading the USA to an authoritarian state. The rioters they are the ones.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

There will always be laws people do not support and find ways around.

But with laws like murder, the vast majority of people support that law, even if a few violate it. With abortion there is not the same degree of popular support.

That is a possibility to pay for the child’s delivery but one thing to remember is these things are paid for in taxes.

But nothing is more important than abortion. That includes keeping taxes low. If it is a choice between keeping taxes low or reducing abortions, we much always chose reducing abortions, right?

…but paying for delivery is not a major reason for abortion.

It is if you add in the fear of complications. And how “major” does it have to be to warrant attention? Shouldn’t even a “minor” reason for abortion be worthy of attention?

 

[gjp111]

Please provide your source when you say that “the Church has made it the top priority.” I provided the link to the U.S. Catholic Council of Bishops (USCCB) document which states that abortion along with racism, care for the poor etc are all considered nonnegotiable issues. I’m seeing a lot of opinions that are being posed as Church teaching/beliefs. I am looking for definitive Church documents which states your position. Otherwise, and I say this with all respect, what you are stating is just your opinion. Thank you. God Bless

 

[upant]

Please provide your source when you say that “the Church has made it the top priority.”

the introductory letter to FCFC (usccb website) states (bold mine)

At the same time, some challenges have become even more pronounced. Pope Francis has continued to draw attention to important issues such as migration, xenophobia, racism, abortion, global conflict, and care for creation. In the United States and around the world, many challenges demand our attention.
**> **
> The threat of abortion remains our preeminent priority because it directly attacks life itself,4 because it takes place within the sanctuary of the family, and because of the number of lives destroyed. At the same time, we cannot dismiss or ignore other serious threats to human life and dignity such as racism, the environmental crisis, poverty and the death penalty.5

 

[pnewton]

There is a “chance” if he is elected

If you really believe that, then that is one area where people can differ. My own opinion is that there is zero chance of abortion being illegal in four years.

 

[Rau]

Abortion, euthanasia are evil and must be stopped.

The appropriate / practical means to get there is a substantial matter for debate. To pursue rapidly making abortion illegal may be quite the wrong thing to do - though that’s a matter for judgement. I imagine a vast amount of work needs to be done to provide for women in difficult situations. To change hearts and minds, before changing the law, would be of benefit and is probably essential IMHO. But I’m not sure if any candidate has that approach.