How come so many Catholics actively support activities that the Church opposes?

[johnnyc176]

We had a thread on this and I think the conclusion was that the most acceptable (grammatically, semantically, and accurately) was “dissenting Catholic.”

And, yes, there are a lot of them out there

So you mean they are protestants?

 

[henpecked]

cafeteria catholics - doesn’t mean they are right. The Catholic Church is not a democracy

 

[cornucopian1984]

Christians do not stop being Christians because they do not follow Church or biblical teachings. If that was the case, anyone who sins would be “no longer Christian.”

I get what you are saying but there is a difference when someone openly opposes the Church despite knowing it is wrong. Is there any difference between cafeteria Catholics and atheists other than the existence of God?

I see these people having some fond nostalgia from the past so they still show up to Church and disagree with almost everything being taught. Besides, they are a bad influence on everyone else.

The Church is not a restaurant where people can pick and choose what they like. Disagreements over something like death penalty is reasonable but actively promoting women’s ‘right to choose’ is not ok.

 

[St_Francis]

There seem to be some inaccuracies and misunderstandings evidenced in your post. I will just follow the line of your post in response, even tho the logic of some of what I say earlier may not be clear til later.

When a person blindly follows ANY religion, I believe part of them might stop to grow.

This *can *be the case, but since human beings are generally so curious it is only if there is a ban on questioning or debate that learning stops. Catholicism encourages people to continue to learn, so we have flowered with brilliant people like St Thomas Aquinas, St Catherine of Sienna, etc.

As powerful as this faith may seem, it can be extremely dangerous when unchecked and when that person becomes so CONVINCED THEY ARE RIGHT and all others ARE WRONG, they not only are willing to DIE for their belief, but as we are seeing, they are willing to KILL.

I would say this depends on the belief system chosen to blindly believe in. The more one immerses oneself in Catholicism, the *less *likely one is to kill, because Catholicism teaches that it is wrong to kill.

OTOH, some belief systems do not prohibit killing, and these are the ones more likely to kill people unjustifiably.

So when you talk about so many Catholics supporting activities that the Church opposes, perhaps we should consider this a good thing and begin a dialogue.

it certainly is good to be ready always to offer an explanation for one’s beliefs. It is certainly *not *good to have Catholics promoting ideas which are directly opposed to Church teaching–it is confusing to others and deleterious to one’s own personal life to dissent.

But on a lighter note, I think it was House that said "If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people.:

Oh, and House was sooo reasonable!

Reading and hearing the phrase “religious freedom” so often in the media causes me to wonder if anyone other than myself has pondered the possibility that the two words are, perhaps, an oxymoron.

This comment of yours and those which follow reflect a misunderstanding as to what the Church means by religious freedom.

Religious freedom is freedom from persecution or forcible conversion.

Let me explain. On the one hand, there is no quarrel over the phrase if it refers only to one’s right to choose any religion he or she likes, and to be able to attend public expressions of certain beliefs as found in Saturday or Sunday gatherings.

Right.

In support of this, there are some who are agitated over the seeming violation of said rights by policies that appear to undermine such beliefs, to wit: some aspects of health care coverage as found in the language of government endorsement.

First, the problem is that the HHS mandates do not “undermine” the teachings; they cause us to have to violate the teachings.

Each should have the *freedom to practice *the religion he or she chooses, right? And if one’s religion teaches that one should not commit sins nor aid others is sinning, then to practice one’s religion means the government should not force people to aid others to sin.

On the other hand, if we are to consider a deeper level of meaning for the word “freedom,” it appears fair to suggest that the adoption of a set of religious doctrines may, in that sense, be at odds with freedom. If one’s faith precludes any questioning of its basic tenets or foundations, is one, then, genuinely “free”?

What is freedom of religion? It is the legal or civil freedom to choose a religion.

What is the point of choosing religion X over religion Y? Obviously because one has concluded that it is true, no?

Continued below…

 

[St_Francis]

…continued from above

Should a person not be free to question such givens and assumptions as a part of freedom of thought? As an example, the “faithful” in the Christian, Jewish, and Muslim communities believe themselves to be in possession of the “word of God” within their translations of centuries old scriptures. Followers are not encouraged to question the validity of such assertions. In fact, one major religion states that it is “sinful” to doubt its claims.

Here one can say that there are two problems with the line of thinking.

One is that having chosen religion X that one would believe it is true. Questioning of the teachings of that religion in the way you seem to mean the phrase would indicate that one did *not *believe it was true, leading to a contradiction in one’s self and a loss of integrity.

(A form of questioning different from the one you seem to mean is the form which allows an increased understanding of the teachings rather than a questioning which only tears down the teachings.)

napavalleyregister.com/news/opinion/mailbag/the-hazards-of-blindly-following-religious-doctrines/article_b891bbb8-83bf-11e3-be75-0019bb2963f4.html

You are fairly new here, so do not know that we generally do something to indicate which material we have quoted and which we have written. You can make the quote a different type, a different color, or indent it – indent ] text quoted / indent ] (without the spaces)

Your article goes in to ask what happens to “the validity of one’s thinking” when one starts with a conclusion?

The answer to that question is that we *all *start with certain conclusions. Richard Dawkins seems to start with the conclusions that 1. evolution as he understands is true, and 2. this proves God does not exist. St Francis of Assisi (not my handle-sake) started with the conclusion that God exists, that God is love, and that God had a task for him to fulfill.

Each if us has a belief system. The one we adhere to is the one we are, in the end. There are people who profess to be Catholics, who attend Mass, etc, yet they believe things which are contrary to Catholic teaching.

If I were a biologist and suddenly said, “Well, I don’t believe in evolution, and I think God created the world and each species individually 6000 or so years ago,” how would I be received? If I said this and started going to state assemblies to ask them to put eliminate the Big Bang and evolution in favor of Young Earth Creationism? Wouldn’t some people say, “She’s not a scientist, she’s a Fundamentalist!”?

So just as Richard Dawkins does not habitually examine the conclusions with which he starts, so do I habitually not examine the truths of the Catholic Church, which in my mind have a much better source than do Dr Dawkins’.

 

[zz912]

Disobedience. They have bought into the lie that they are the deciders of right and wrong, and they can sit in judgment of how things should be, especially regarding faith and morals.

Do not fret, there will be tough times for the Church coming soon, but the Church will always weather such storms. We’ve had heresies and heretics before, and we’ll have them again. We just need to stay faithful and stay obedient to the Church.

 

[Frankenfurter]

We all struggle. Do not judge these Catholics. You are no better than them.

Try to see all souls through God’s eye: His children whom he loves.

There are no perfect Catholics out there.

At least they are trying.

Most don’t know the reasons for the Church’s position on the social issues. It is a real boost to their faith when they learn from the church instead of the media… Perhaps you can help them?!?

 

[cornucopian1984]

We all struggle. Do not judge these Catholics. You are no better than them.

Try to see all souls through God’s eye: His children whom he loves.

There are no perfect Catholics out there.

At least they are trying.

Most don’t know the reasons for the Church’s position on the social issues. It is a real boost to their faith when they learn from the church instead of the media… Perhaps you can help them?!?

I am far from perfect…

These Catholics are like parasites slowly killing the host. The other day I was reading about a Catholic school teacher who was fired for having an abortion. The school was simply following what the Church tells them to do. Yet, the most vocal critics of the school were Catholics. Not only do they want the Bible rewritten but they also want to attack others who are still faithful to the Church.

**Basically, the Church’s views on homosexuality, contraception, abortion and divorce cannot change because the Bible is not a book that is actively rewritten and updated to fit every new norm. **

Since we can at least accept that the Bible is the ultimate authority on such issues, then why do we even entertain the idea of change? Nobody is forcing these people to go Church. They can go form their own “Church” and promote every new sexual trend they want. Why do they want to make it hard for the ones who are faithful?

 

[St_Francis]

We all struggle. Do not judge these Catholics. You are no better than them.

Try to see all souls through God’s eye: His children whom he loves.

There are no perfect Catholics out there.

At least they are trying.

Most don’t know the reasons for the Church’s position on the social issues. It is a real boost to their faith when they learn from the church instead of the media… Perhaps you can help them?!?

I know all sorts of different Catholics. I am related to people who would return to the Church if only… (women priests, abc, etc). Well, at least they are honest and not saying they believe when they don’t.

And then there are the "Catholic but"s. Yes, technically they are Catholic, but the ones I am talking about here are not teh ones who are ignorant… it has been explained to them by priests and in some cases bishops, and *still *they adhere to what they *know *to be their own doctrine and not that of the Church.

Yes, I have also spoken to people who are truly ignorant. St Thomas Aquinas says the difference between one who sincereky ignorant and one who is a heretic is that the first changes uis mind when he learns the truth, and the latter does not.

 

[zz912]

We all struggle. Do not judge these Catholics. You are no better than them.

We are required to judge their actions. We need to be able to judge right and wrong behavior.

There are no perfect Catholics out there.

Of course not, but we must strive for perfection, and acknowledge when we are not perfect. And we mustn’t gloss over or ignore our imperfections.

At least they are trying.

No,they are not. That’s the big problem here. They are explicitly NOT trying to live by Church teaching. They are rejecting it. That’s what it means to reject Church teaching. You are NOT trying to live as Christ wants.

 

[Frankenfurter]

You guys are making some important distinctions between folks that are just ignorant vs folks that have made up their minds and are truly trying to force change onto the church.

Often though, when the church tries to defend itself on these social issues it backfires. The media just makes the church look backwards and hateful because of the way it is twisted.

You can do more harm than good in the end by defending the church if you are not careful.

A lot of the folks who want to force change have been so indoctrinated by the conflict-focused media that when you defend the church, it just empowers them more actually.

The social issues are always painted in terms of the church stomping on people’s rights. That is a hot button issue in the USA for sure and the media feeds that fire to create more scandal on purpose.

I have had much success in helping folks understand how their views on Catholic social teachings have been influenced by the conflict-mongering media. They generally feel better siding with the church after seeing things in that light. The church in the end is concerned about your soul. The media just wants to sell commercials and sees you as a data point to be exploited.

Let’s pray for these folks. I am sure that is what Jesus wants us to do. But let’s also let them know we are praying for them and welcome them.

 

[St_Francis]

You guys are making some important distinctions between folks that are just ignorant vs folks that have made up their minds and are truly trying to force change onto the church.

Often though, when the church tries to defend itself on these social issues it backfires. The media just makes the church look backwards and hateful because of the way it is twisted.

You can do more harm than good in the end by defending the church if you are not careful.

A lot of the folks who want to force change have been so indoctrinated by the conflict-focused media that when you defend the church, it just empowers them more actually.

The social issues are always painted in terms of the church stomping on people’s rights. That is a hot button issue in the USA for sure and the media feeds that fire to create more scandal on purpose.

**I have had much success in helping folks understand how their views on Catholic social teachings have been influenced by the conflict-mongering media. **They generally feel better siding with the church after seeing things in that light. The church in the end is concerned about your soul. The media just wants to sell commercials and sees you as a data point to be exploited.

Let’s pray for these folks. I am sure that is what Jesus wants us to do. But let’s also let them know we are praying for them and welcome them.

How do you do that?

 

[glendab]

Hello Frankenfurter.

We all struggle. Do not judge these Catholics. You are no better than them.

Try to see all souls through God’s eye: His children whom he loves.

There are no perfect Catholics out there.

At least they are trying.

Most don’t know the reasons for the Church’s position on the social issues. It is a real boost to their faith when they learn from the church instead of the media… Perhaps you can help them?!?

Yes, I am better than they are by my own choice. I chose Jesus and His Church, whole and entire. Like I said earlier in this same thread, when I came into the Church, I was basically a blank slate waiting to be written upon. I went to RCIA class and was eager to learn what I was supposed to so I could be obedient to God thru His Church. I really didn’t want any more mistakes in my thoughts about God and knew I needed to be straightened out plenty. Then I met the RCIA team and the DRE who was an RSM. I didn’t know it at the time, but a bunch of them were sitting waiting for Sister to be Ordained and were there solely to support her. They didn’t really care whether or not I learned what I was supposed to; not at all. But they did need to find out which “side” I was on. A few of them assumed that since I was Protestant (which I wasn’t BTW, they assumed wrongly) I’d have sympathies with their point of view. I didn’t. When they finally revealed what it was they deviated on and how they felt about it, I was deeply offended and hurt and disappointed and took my heartache to God in prayer and realized that not all the glitters is gold as St. Robert Bellarmine once said. After the wound stopped bleeding, I realized there were two kinds of Catholics, faithful and unfaithful. I decided right then and there at the Adoration chapel to be the faithful kind and although I knew there was a whole bunch of stuff I didn’t know yet, I would on my own find out what I was supposed to know, because those in my RCIA group and even my own Sponsor for Baptism, had no real concern for my being taught what I was supposed be taught. All they cared about was telling me their opinions and literally listening each week to Sister’s homily about the Sunday’s readings. It was horrible. But I completed the course so I could receive Baptism. One week I actually spoke up about our then current Holy Father’s views on something and actually quoted him, at that time St. John Paul II, and at the smoke break I was told point blank that I’d better watch it or Sister wouldn’t allow me to be Baptized. I was labeled a trouble maker and let it go at that. Oh well.

So, I was asked right from the get go which “side” I was on and I do feel much better about my choices each and every day. I still pray that those who dissent from Church teaching on one point or the other or from many things will one day turn from their errors and seek Him Who is all Truth and live the Way He wills and accept His Life once again. That is a much happier thing then all the false and troublesome opinions on the face of the planet. I may not know all I’d like to know about God and His Church, but I am learning and growing each day and there is one thing I cannot be called and that is unfaithful. If you think that makes me judgmental then oh well too bad I won’t be judged by you when I pass but God so your opinion of me is your personal judgment. You in fact are judging what we have shred here and are claiming that we are the ones judging but determining what is right and good and worthy of praise and what shouldn’t be placed in any bucket.

As for looking with God’s eyes on those who He loves, well all of us are loved by God but when those who are charged with handing on the faith as He taught it whole and entire whether in the home as a parent, on the job by example or chitty chat in the break room or as a member of an RCIA team or here at CAF, He intended His beloved children to receive what He gave us, not what some thinks about what He gave us. The sure hope of Heaven is the greatest gift those who love anyone can wish and give to those they love, hands down. To give anything less is NOT LOVE. In these rough times we are all called to be watchful and wary of those who would adulterate the faith of any ear they can bend to their purpose.

And one other thing - there is one perfect Catholic and her name is Mary and she is my Mother. God gave her to me as a gift because He loves both her and me. She is a perfect Catholic. By keeping my eyes on her, I can grow into the perfect Catholic I am meant to be. Like Mother Angelica says, “We are all called to be Saints. Don’t miss the opportunity.”

Okie dokie Frankenfurter, sorry for being so rough on you, but you did provide the perfect opportunity to express my feeling and my experience.

Glenda

 

[Frankenfurter]

How do you do that?

First, explain the economics. The media does not want you to turn away from their channel. They want your attention. This is their job. By nature, we humans are attracted to conflict it would seem. Conflict mongering pays off, and hence we have more and more of it and it begins to overshadow things.

There are psychologists who are paid well to determine how to get you to stay focused on a TV show so that you will not turn away. Hence the whole reason for 15 minutes between commercials, with a cliff hanger every 15 minutes etc. Conflict sells.

You can use the truth to make people understand that they are being (and have been) manipulated. Start with that because it is true and may open some eyes.

Once that door is open, enter into the discussion that the Catholic church is one of the only group of people concerned with your soul and that the church’s social teachings are their to help you. They have nothing to gain by your being saved, while the media has everything to gain by your being glued to the conflict they generate. Whom do you trust?

This contrast between someone who wants to care for you vs someone who wants to exploit you needs to be made clear for what it really is. People respond to this.

At this point they should be open to an understanding of Catholic social teaching in terms of something that is there to help you, while being painted as a conflict by those who want to exploit you. From here a reading of the humane vitae etc stands properly in its brilliance when read in this light.

The challenge for the church is to deliver this message in a more modern way. The dry, committee written, philosophical writings appeal to only a minority while the message needs to get out more accessibly.

 

[SuperLuigi]

I am trying to go back to Church after a long time and I am amazed at the amount of support for gay ‘marriage’, abortion, contraception and porn from people who go to church regularly.

Isn’t the Bible clear on such issues? I have been told by some that the Church needs to evolve and be open to new ideas.

Is it safe to say these people are no longer Christians if they reject the institution of marriage and sanctity of life? Christianity cannot survive without marriage and the Bible is very clear on its purpose and meaning of it.

Finally, is there any good book/documentary you would recommend on we ended up in such a sad situation? I was reading about the 45 goals of communism and I find it amazing how so many goals have been accomplished.

1. Because it makes them feel good
2. They are too afraid of standing up to someone they know who violates Church teaching, or it’s just easier to go along with what they do
3. They are making what other people think about them a god in their lives
4. Worried about being called a bigot/outdated neanderthal or other nasty names

 

[Tigg]

The challenge for the church is to deliver this message in a more modern way. The dry, committee written, philosophical writings appeal to only a minority while the message needs to get out more accessibly.

I’m trying to imagine what the more modern way might be. And the dry, philosophical writings? I was converted by the Q & A of the Baltimore Catechism. What could really be dryer than that? Yet I have kept even my first catechism; the answers being penned by a young girl’s hand who didn’t yet fully understand, yet perceived there was a treasure written there and a mystery to be explored in what was happening on the altar. I wonder if your comments are not discounting grace, which is the only means the message may be taken to heart.

 

[JillyAnn]

IMHO, a big part o the issue here is that politco-socio-economic environment in the US is not congruent with the teachings and beliefs of the Catholic Church. Our country is in a moral downward liberal spiral…
It’s too long of a discussion to have but…birth control vs abortion and public assistance as an example. Let your minds wander. …

 

[St_Francis]

First, explain the economics. The media does not want you to turn away from their channel. They want your attention. This is their job. By nature, we humans are attracted to conflict it would seem. Conflict mongering pays off, and hence we have more and more of it and it begins to overshadow things.

There are psychologists who are paid well to determine how to get you to stay focused on a TV show so that you will not turn away. Hence the whole reason for 15 minutes between commercials, with a cliff hanger every 15 minutes etc. Conflict sells.

You can use the truth to make people understand that they are being (and have been) manipulated. Start with that because it is true and may open some eyes.

Once that door is open, enter into the discussion that the Catholic church is one of the only group of people concerned with your soul and that the church’s social teachings are their to help you. They have nothing to gain by your being saved, while the media has everything to gain by your being glued to the conflict they generate. Whom do you trust?

This contrast between someone who wants to care for you vs someone who wants to exploit you needs to be made clear for what it really is. People respond to this.

At this point they should be open to an understanding of Catholic social teaching in terms of something that is there to help you, while being painted as a conflict by those who want to exploit you. From here a reading of the humane vitae etc stands properly in its brilliance when read in this light.

The challenge for the church is to deliver this message in a more modern way. The dry, committee written, philosophical writings appeal to only a minority while the message needs to get out more accessibly.

And this argument has actually worked for you? The reason I ask is that many of the people I know think that it’s about control, that the Church wants to control us, and that is why they do not listen.

The fact that the media pushing the idea of sexual license is motivated by profit would not, I think, cancel out the apparent excellence of the message.

 

[SuperLuigi]

IMHO, a big part o the issue here is that politco-socio-economic environment in the US is not congruent with the teachings and beliefs of the Catholic Church. Our country is in a moral downward liberal spiral…
It’s too long of a discussion to have but…birth control vs abortion and public assistance as an example. Let your minds wander. …

Catholic leaders have made it crystal clear as to the ranking importance of these issues.

Public assistance is a privilege that if often abused.

 

[Goya]

Christians do not stop being Christians because they do not follow Church or biblical teachings. If that was the case, anyone who sins would be “no longer Christian.”

^^This.

I think both the Bible and the Church are clear on the issues. I’m working to enter into full communion with the Catholic Church *because *they so clear on the issues.

^^and this.

The Church–the Bride of Christ, the ‘institution’ which Christ left us via his Apostles, is guided and protected by the Holy Spirit. This is how she has been able to remain so clear on the issues.

…but it is still comprised of sinners.

I know I say this a lot, but just for context–my wife is protestant–and while I considered protestantism, one of its biggest turnoffs, was this bogus pretense of them not sinning.
You know…once saved always saved… Shazam! you’ve been saved! You magically turn your back on sin forever…

But reality simply does not support such a bogus facade. We champion positive charitable behavior, we condemn negative, uncharitable behavior…but that doesn’t mean we individually, have overcome temptation sufficient to avoid sinning.

So…are there hypocrites in the Catholic Church? Sure.

But let us not compound their hypocrisy, with more hypcorisy–by pretending there are not hypocrites amongst our ranks, or even wishing there weren’t any. That is pretentious, and transparently fraudulent.

We are who we are, and Truth is what it is; attempts to compromise Truth to conform to our weaknesses, only result in compromising our own integrity…

…and salvation ultimately requires reconciliation with Truth.