This is what you said:As I said, you read into things whatever you please.
Your first statement specifically says that everyone deserves punishment because of crimes of the Pharaoh. Including children.Pharaoh, by definition, is a ruler and in ancient Near-east cultures is understood as the “father” of the people of Egypt. When crimes become so widespread that they become institutional so as to be recognized and permitted at a national level then there is nothing immoral about the judgment and subsequent punishment also being national.
He mercifully ends their lives so as to mercifully keep them from piling on more sin into adulthood, as they most certainly would.
1)The crimes of Pharaoh were carried out by the people, thus it is a national crime.This is what you said:
Your first statement specifically says that everyone deserves punishment because of crimes of the Pharaoh. Including children.
Your second says: kill children before they grow up and commit the same crimes as their fathers.
Could you point out where I’ve misread something you wrote?
The bid daddy in the sky…who seems to be absent most of the time.
We’re sliding away from what you originally said, which was that the infanticide was retribution for what the Pharaoh did. As he was undoubtedly the head of the family (remember my Godfather reference?).1)The crimes of Pharaoh were carried out by the people, thus it is a national crime.
But of course I am mistaken, you’re an atheist, slavery and infantacide are at best morally relative.
2)You’re specifically reading your materialist ideas into my comment and twisting the meaning.
This ought to be obvious to anyone who has a shred of intellectual honesty.
Your lack of reading comprehension is astounding that it’s bordering on just you being purposefully obtuse.We’re sliding away from what you originally said, which was that the infanticide was retribution for what the Pharaoh did. As he was undoubtedly the head of the family (remember my Godfather reference?).
So let’s change this from infanticide due to what one person did, which was what you originally said, to infanticide due to what many did. Which is what you are saying now. Is that meant as an excuse for what you think happened? Is it better in some way? That it’s ok to say: these people committed a crime, therefore it’s OK to kill their children?
And please explain what materialistic ideas I am reading into this: it’s apparently ok to kill children because they will grow up and commit crimes.
Whatever ideas you read into it, there is one thing you can say without any doubt whatsoever. It is horrifically, monstrously, shockingly wrong.
And if I have misinterpreted it, then rather than say: ‘you don’t understand!’, you need to point out where that misinterpretation has occurred. Otherwise what I have said stands. Which it does at this point.I wrote what I wrote.
God is justified in everything He does for He is justice itself and so He does nothing that is unjust whether we speak of the death of the first born of the Egyptians or whatever else God told the Israelites to do in the Old Testament. It is unthinkable for a christian to apply any kind of injustice to God whatsoever. Whatever God does he does for a good purpose according to His infinite wisdom, justice, mercy, love, and goodness.Well, I’m assuming you know it all, so I don’t want to run through the whole thing. But we’re up to the bit where he kills the kids. Which, let’s face it, is the section that’s relevant to the thread.
If you like we could go on a little and say that after he kills them the Egyptians can see he’s not going to take no for an answer and they relent.
So was he justified in killing them? Feel free to add relevant parts of the story if you think it will help clarify your answer.
Yep, that all-loving, all-just child killer. You don’t see the contradiction…really?God is justified in everything He does for He is justice itself and so He does nothing that is unjust whether we speak of the death of the first born of the Egyptians or whatever else God told the Israelites to do in the Old Testament. It is unthinkable for a christian to apply any kind of injustice to God whatsoever. Whatever God does he does for a good purpose according to His infinite wisdom, justice, mercy, love, and goodness.
St Ambrose says “It is justice that renders to each one what is his, and claims not another’s property;” and St Thomas Aquinas says that justice is a kind of equality between things. Now between God and creatures there is the greatest inequality and they are infinitely apart and creatures have nothing that they have not received from God as St Paul says "What do you possess that you have not received? But if you have received it, why are you boasting as if you did not receive it?( 1 Corinthians 4:7).
So the psalmist says “Were I hungry, I would not tell you,
for mine is the world and all that fills it” (Psalm 50:12).
And “Good and evil, life and death,
poverty and riches—all are from the LORD” (Sirach 11:14).
God cannot be said to owe anything to any creature in strict justice for whatever good a creature possesses including life it has received from God and thus a human being cannot claim anything as his/her own but their own sins.
St Paul says “For whatever was written previously was written for our instruction, that by endurance and by the encouragement of the scriptures we might have hope” (Romans 15:4). We can learn from the deeds of God in the past that the same kind of things such as God’s punishment on the first born of the Egyptians may befall us here and now if we do not repent of our sins and refuse to submit to God.
And you dont see God. You just see what you want to see!Yep, that all-loving, all-just child killer. You don’t see the contradiction…really?
Then we have no human understanding of terms such as justice. We cannot define it ourselves because it’s not up to us to do so.God is justified in everything He does for He is justice itself and so He does nothing that is unjust whether we speak of the death of the first born of the Egyptians or whatever else God told the Israelites to do in the Old Testament. It is unthinkable for a christian to apply any kind of injustice to God whatsoever.
To answer…God is Love. God dosen’t have love as we do. But rather God is love. He cannot act in any other way than to love because he is precisely love itself.Then we have no human understanding of terms such as justice. We cannot define it ourselves because it’s not up to us to do so.
Let’s say that we had a scenario where a group of people wanted to leave a country. The powers that be would not let them. If I asked you if it was then justifiable to kill the children of the people who lived there simply because of that, I sincerely hope that you would think the question barbaric. But if you thought that God commanded it, then you’d say it was justified. It wouldn’t matter how atrocious, how barbaric, how horrific you think it was personally, you would have to swallow the bile rising in your throat, take a deep breath and say: It’s OK…
The answer to the question: ‘Is X justifiable?’ has to be, from your statement above: ‘Well, that depends if it’s God’s will’.
The obvious question then becomes: How do you know?
I removed the log from my eye some years ago. God does not control suffering, or anything else on earth. For Him to do so would involve Him in a great many immoral acts either as the cause, or because of His advance knowledge. I have too much respect for the Creator to accept that.And you dont see God. You just see what you want to see!
Your respect is misguided because you would condemn a human father who ignores his children and has no love for them from the moment they are born until the moment they die. That is the apotheosis of cruelty…I removed the log from my eye some years ago. God does not control suffering, or anything else on earth. For Him to do so would involve Him in a great many immoral acts either as the cause, or because of His advance knowledge. I have too much respect for the Creator to accept that.
Since I believe that God has no direct role in our birth or death, this is not an issue.We have human parent to tend to us when we need it. Some are better than others, and I got real lucky.Your respect is misguided because you would condemn a human father who ignores his children and has no love for them from the moment they are born until the moment they die. That is the apotheosis of cruelty…
Then how do you explain that you draw air into your lungs or how your heart continues to beat, distict from those who daily as of yet do not, nor can not?Since I believe that God has no direct role in our birth or death, this is not an issue.We have human parent to tend to us when we need it. Some are better than others, and I got real lucky.
One obviously had a physical condition that caused his death. Same applies to me. I do all those things and many more because it is in my physical nature to do so. This developed through many millennia and is likely still continuingThen how do you explain that you draw air into your lungs or how your heart continues to beat, distict from those who daily as of yet do not, nor can not?
IOW you have a dairy farmer walking with two cows. One of the cows drops dead.
What is the difference between the two cows?
So our existence is wholly dependent upon material operations, “physical conditions?”One obviously had a physical condition that caused his death. Same applies to me. I do all those things and many more because it is in my physical nature to do so. This developed through many millennia and is likely still continuing
Those who have yet to be conceived and born lack the physical characteristics necessary to perform such actions.
I don’t recall ever saying that it wasn’t.So our existence is wholly dependent upon material operations, “physical conditions?”
How is that not materialism?
I haven’t read this entire thread, just wanted to weigh in on the subject as it’s a very important one.I removed the log from my eye some years ago. God does not control suffering, or anything else on earth. For Him to do so would involve Him in a great many immoral acts either as the cause, or because of His advance knowledge. I have too much respect for the Creator to accept that.
Nicely saidI haven’t read this entire thread, just wanted to weigh in on the subject as it’s a very important one.
God is obviously ultimately responsible for everything that goes on in the cosmos (and in heaven as well) since he created it and has the ability to stop it if he so chooses. Christ even claims he is responsible for everything that happens:
“18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.” Mt. 28:18 (NRSV)
Now, the question “how could God allow suffering” actually has to deal with whether or not the suffering is justified or not. I will assume the suffering is unjustified. I would also have to disagree with the statement that God is “moral” (if “moral” is defined by how natural man understands morality) because I think it is very clear that the God of the Bible would be considered to be evil by human nature (see the following passage). This brings us to one of the most interesting passages in Scripture:
“9 For three and a half days members of the peoples and tribes and languages and nations will gaze at their dead bodies and refuse to let them be placed in a tomb; 10 and the inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and celebrate and exchange presents, because these two prophets had been a torment to the inhabitants of the earth.” Rev. 11:9-10 (NRSV)
Notice that the human race is overjoyed when the two witnesses are dead and even celebrates the occasion. This is very important because the two witnesses are basically corporate representations of God, Christ, the Holy Spirit, the Apostle Paul, Peter, Elijah, Moses, etc. This shows us something very important about human nature: human nature believes that God is evil.
That being said, I wanted to answer how God could allow unjustified suffering: God can allow unjustified suffering because God will rectify all unjustified suffering on the day of judgment. All unjustified suffering will one day be made right by God. So God can allow it for a time (to accomplish his purposes, like saving the elect), because he will right it all later and make it as though it had never been. God can do this, man cannot. And so God can allow unjustified suffering.