How could a moral God allow suffering?

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tonyrey said:
Nonsense! **The loving, merciful Father revealed by Jesus is not identical with the primitive idea of a wrathful Deity in some texts in the Old Testament **which is at odds with the more refined concept of the Creator in .
You are using your free will to condemn God’s gift of free will! Would you prefer to be a zombie?
Then why do you complain about the suffering in the world?
It requires immense knowledge to understand even most aspects of nature let alone create all of them. Why are teams of scientists dedicating their lives to research with sophisticated equipment?
Not what?

Which proves that immense knowledge and power on the part of the Creator are needed to create them!
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Heresy…and I have given you the sources.
 
tonyrey said:
Nonsense! The loving, merciful Father revealed by Jesus is not identical with the primitive idea of a wrathful Deity in some texts in the Old Testament which is at odds with the more refined concept of the Creator in .
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Tony, the Trinity reveled by Christ is the same God of ancient Israel. There is no dichotomy between the two.

Both Gnosticism and Marcionism were explicitly rejected by the Church.
 
Amandil said:
For all intents and purposes oldcelt is a materialistic atheist who is hedging his bets by claiming to be a deist thinking and hoping that simply being sincere about his “deism” will save his skin in case he’s wrong.
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It must be wonderful to have such insight and knowledge of a person whom you have never met. Unlike you, I do not believe in a wrathful god but I do believe in God. Thus, you were wrong from the start.
 
Amandil said:
Back to my original point:

Just seconds before their physical condition was the same i.e. they were alive.

What live cow has which is now lacking in dead cow is “life”. How do you explain this?

Now you can make the claim that “life” is solely the result caused by “physical conditions” but you’d be begging the question.
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Obviously, their physical conditions were not the same despite external appearances. Just as with humans, a truly unexplained death is very rare. There is an underlying condition that causes the body to malfunction, resulting in death.
 
oldcelt said:
Obviously, their physical conditions were not the same despite external appearances. Just as with humans, a truly unexplained death is very rare. There is an underlying condition that causes the body to malfunction, resulting in death.
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Here’s the problem, you’re making assumptions about the cow not based upon what you’ve observed but what you already assume to believe(i.e. materialism).

The second problem is that even if your assumption was granted, the cow still possessed life while it had your assumed “physical condition”, now it doesn’t. It still possessed the ability to move air in and out of it’s lungs while ii had this “physical condition”, now it can’t.

How can you say that it was the “physical condition” which took it away?
 
oldcelt said:
It must be wonderful to have such insight and knowledge of a person whom you have never met. Unlike you, I do not believe in a wrathful god but I do believe in God. Thus, you were wrong from the start.
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Whatever you say.
 
oldcelt said:
Originally Posted by Achilles6129
That being said, I wanted to answer how God could allow unjustified suffering: God can allow unjustified suffering because God will rectify all unjustified suffering on the day of judgment. All unjustified suffering will one day be made right by God. So God can allow it for a time (to accomplish his purposes, like saving the elect), because he will right it all later and make it as though it had never been. God can do this, man cannot. And so God can allow unjustified suffering.
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It is most definitely a comfort to know their child is happy and that they will be reunited. It seems to me that you have issues with your god.
Only sin balks at the idea of justice.
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oldcelt said:
That is cold comfort for a family that just watched their child die hideously for no good reason or the thousands of Egyptians mothers who wept after their first borns were slaughtered, or, etc, etc, etc.
Perhaps human nature believes that God is evil because they were taught that. One need only look at the holy books to see the evil. Why the early church fathers chose the books they did I have always boiled down to control. “Listen to us or God will smite you and send you to eternal damnation.” Definitely not all-loving.
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Several points need to be made:
  1. God is the owner of everything in the cosmos. That means that no family “owns” a child; the child is not “theirs,” it is God’s since he made it. God, as the owner of every molecule of the cosmos, lays claim to every molecule of the cosmos. “Your child,” is no more “your child” than the planet Neptune is your planet. All is owned by the Creator.
  2. God will undo all evil, which solves the problem of evil (as already stated in my previous post on this thread)
  3. If you’re referring to the Egyptian mothers of the Exodus then something very important needs to be remembered:
“8 Now a new king arose over Egypt, who did not know Joseph. 9 He said to his people, “Look, the Israelite people are more numerous and more powerful than we. 10 Come, let us deal shrewdly with them, or they will increase and, in the event of war, join our enemies and fight against us and escape from the land.” 11 Therefore they set taskmasters over them to oppress them with forced labor. They built supply cities, Pithom and Rameses, for Pharaoh. 12 But the more they were oppressed, the more they multiplied and spread, so that the Egyptians came to dread the Israelites. 13 The Egyptians became ruthless in imposing tasks on the Israelites, 14 and made their lives bitter with hard service in mortar and brick and in every kind of field labor. They were ruthless in all the tasks that they imposed on them.
15 The king of Egypt said to the Hebrew midwives, one of whom was named Shiphrah and the other Puah, 16 “When you act as midwives to the Hebrew women, and see them on the birthstool,** if it is a boy, kill him; but if it is a girl, she shall live**.” 17 But the midwives feared God; they did not do as the king of Egypt commanded them, but they let the boys live. 18 So the king of Egypt summoned the midwives and said to them, “Why have you done this, and allowed the boys to live?” 19 The midwives said to Pharaoh, “Because the Hebrew women are not like the Egyptian women; for they are vigorous and give birth before the midwife comes to them.” 20 So God dealt well with the midwives; and the people multiplied and became very strong. 21 And because the midwives feared God, he gave them families. 22 **Then Pharaoh commanded all his people, “Every boy that is born to the Hebrews[a] you shall throw into the Nile, but you shall let every girl live.”” **Ex. 1:8-22 (NRSV)

You seem to be forgetting that the Egyptians were obsessed with killing and enslaving Israelites. This is something that seems to be usually forgotten by those that believe that the God of the Exodus is “unjust.”
  1. Evil said/done by God in Scripture is your opinion from your own point of view. The Bible offers a theology that justifies every single action/statement made by God in Scripture. Clearly the vast majority of the human race has not accepted that theology, but that doesn’t mean it’s not true.
  2. The early church fathers did not “choose” the books of the New Testament. If you look at the New Testament and who it was written by you will see the reason why it was canonized and why no other writings even came close. There’s not a matter of “choice” here, there’s only a matter of acknowledgement.
oldcelt said:
Nope, my God is not involved in killing children. Strange concept of justice you have there.
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Depends on what you mean by “killing children.” If you mean physical death then I would think that it’s obvious that God would have to be involved in some way, as God is ultimately responsible for everything that happens in the universe. If you’re referring to various injunctions in the Old Testament to wipe out civilizations, then a very good reason could be that those civilizations were simply so evil and corrupt that they had to be totally destroyed (like the global flood civilization).

An interesting analogy might be the U.S. in WWII. In order to end WWII the U.S. had to drop a nuclear bomb on Hiroshima/Nagasaki, killing/burning alive many men, women, children, and infants. The U.S. did this because they had no other choice; in the same way, God may have to exterminate a civilization because he has no other choice: in other words, they will keep being evil and attacking/antagonizing the people of God until they’re all dead.
 
tonyrey said:
Nonsense! The loving, merciful Father revealed by Jesus is not identical with the primitive idea of a wrathful Deity in some texts in the Old Testament which is at odds with the more refined concept of the Creator
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Christ makes it very clear that the God of the OT is his Father:

“30 The Father and I are one.”” Jn. 10:30

I would also suggest you take a look at the book of Revelation 🙂
 
Achilles6129 said:
Several points need to be made:
  1. God is the owner of everything in the cosmos. That means that no family “owns” a child; the child is not “theirs,” it is God’s since he made it. God, as the owner of every molecule of the cosmos, lays claim to every molecule of the cosmos. “Your child,” is no more “your child” than the planet Neptune is your planet. All is owned by the Creator.
  2. God will undo all evil, which solves the problem of evil (as already stated in my previous post on this thread)
  3. If you’re referring to the Egyptian mothers of the Exodus then something very important needs to be remembered:
“8 Now a new king arose over Egypt, who did not know Joseph. 9 He said to his people, “Look, the Israelite people are more numerous and more powerful than we. 10 Come, let us deal shrewdly with them, or they will increase and, in the event of war, join our enemies and fight against us and escape from the land.” 11 Therefore they set taskmasters over them to oppress them with forced labor. They built supply cities, Pithom and Rameses, for Pharaoh. 12 But the more they were oppressed, the more they multiplied and spread, so that the Egyptians came to dread the Israelites. 13 The Egyptians became ruthless in imposing tasks on the Israelites, 14 and made their lives bitter with hard service in mortar and brick and in every kind of field labor. They were ruthless in all the tasks that they imposed on them.
15 The king of Egypt said to the Hebrew midwives, one of whom was named Shiphrah and the other Puah, 16 “When you act as midwives to the Hebrew women, and see them on the birthstool,** if it is a boy, kill him; but if it is a girl, she shall live**.” 17 But the midwives feared God; they did not do as the king of Egypt commanded them, but they let the boys live. 18 So the king of Egypt summoned the midwives and said to them, “Why have you done this, and allowed the boys to live?” 19 The midwives said to Pharaoh, “Because the Hebrew women are not like the Egyptian women; for they are vigorous and give birth before the midwife comes to them.” 20 So God dealt well with the midwives; and the people multiplied and became very strong. 21 And because the midwives feared God, he gave them families. 22 **Then Pharaoh commanded all his people, “Every boy that is born to the Hebrews[a] you shall throw into the Nile, but you shall let every girl live.”” **Ex. 1:8-22 (NRSV)

You seem to be forgetting that the Egyptians were obsessed with killing and enslaving Israelites. This is something that seems to be usually forgotten by those that believe that the God of the Exodus is “unjust.”
  1. Evil said/done by God in Scripture is your opinion from your own point of view. The Bible offers a theology that justifies every single action/statement made by God in Scripture. Clearly the vast majority of the human race has not accepted that theology, but that doesn’t mean it’s not true.
  2. The early church fathers did not “choose” the books of the New Testament. If you look at the New Testament and who it was written by you will see the reason why it was canonized and why no other writings even came close. There’s not a matter of “choice” here, there’s only a matter of acknowledgement.
Depends on what you mean by “killing children.” If you mean physical death then I would think that it’s obvious that God would have to be involved in some way, as God is ultimately responsible for everything that happens in the universe. If you’re referring to various injunctions in the Old Testament to wipe out civilizations, then a very good reason could be that those civilizations were simply so evil and corrupt that they had to be totally destroyed (like the global flood civilization).

An interesting analogy might be the U.S. in WWII. In order to end WWII the U.S. had to drop a nuclear bomb on Hiroshima/Nagasaki, killing/burning alive many men, women, children, and infants. The U.S. did this because they had no other choice; in the same way, God may have to exterminate a civilization because he has no other choice: in other words, they will keep being evil and attacking/antagonizing the people of God until they’re all dead.
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I think it is quite apparent that our beliefs are far apart. Everyone here, with a few exceptions, just wants to forget about the purported omniscience and omnipotence of the Christian God. He created these people with infallible knowledge of how they would be and then punished them for being that way. There is no logical way around that, only the ever-convenient “mystery” excuse.
 
Achilles6129 said:
Several points need to be made:
  1. God is the owner of everything in the cosmos. That means that no family “owns” a child; the child is not “theirs,” it is God’s since he made it. God, as the owner of every molecule of the cosmos, lays claim to every molecule of the cosmos. “Your child,” is no more “your child” than the planet Neptune is your planet. All is owned by the Creator.
  2. God will undo all evil, which solves the problem of evil (as already stated in my previous post on this thread)
  3. If you’re referring to the Egyptian mothers of the Exodus then something very important needs to be remembered:
“8 Now a new king arose over Egypt, who did not know Joseph. 9 He said to his people, “Look, the Israelite people are more numerous and more powerful than we. 10 Come, let us deal shrewdly with them, or they will increase and, in the event of war, join our enemies and fight against us and escape from the land.” 11 Therefore they set taskmasters over them to oppress them with forced labor. They built supply cities, Pithom and Rameses, for Pharaoh. 12 But the more they were oppressed, the more they multiplied and spread, so that the Egyptians came to dread the Israelites. 13 The Egyptians became ruthless in imposing tasks on the Israelites, 14 and made their lives bitter with hard service in mortar and brick and in every kind of field labor. They were ruthless in all the tasks that they imposed on them.
15 The king of Egypt said to the Hebrew midwives, one of whom was named Shiphrah and the other Puah, 16 “When you act as midwives to the Hebrew women, and see them on the birthstool,** if it is a boy, kill him; but if it is a girl, she shall live**.” 17 But the midwives feared God; they did not do as the king of Egypt commanded them, but they let the boys live. 18 So the king of Egypt summoned the midwives and said to them, “Why have you done this, and allowed the boys to live?” 19 The midwives said to Pharaoh, “Because the Hebrew women are not like the Egyptian women; for they are vigorous and give birth before the midwife comes to them.” 20 So God dealt well with the midwives; and the people multiplied and became very strong. 21 And because the midwives feared God, he gave them families. 22 **Then Pharaoh commanded all his people, “Every boy that is born to the Hebrews[a] you shall throw into the Nile, but you shall let every girl live.”” **Ex. 1:8-22 (NRSV)

You seem to be forgetting that the Egyptians were obsessed with killing and enslaving Israelites. This is something that seems to be usually forgotten by those that believe that the God of the Exodus is “unjust.”
  1. Evil said/done by God in Scripture is your opinion from your own point of view. The Bible offers a theology that justifies every single action/statement made by God in Scripture. Clearly the vast majority of the human race has not accepted that theology, but that doesn’t mean it’s not true.
  2. The early church fathers did not “choose” the books of the New Testament. If you look at the New Testament and who it was written by you will see the reason why it was canonized and why no other writings even came close. There’s not a matter of “choice” here, there’s only a matter of acknowledgement.
Depends on what you mean by “killing children.” If you mean physical death then I would think that it’s obvious that God would have to be involved in some way, as God is ultimately responsible for everything that happens in the universe. If you’re referring to various injunctions in the Old Testament to wipe out civilizations, then a very good reason could be that those civilizations were simply so evil and corrupt that they had to be totally destroyed (like the global flood civilization).

An interesting analogy might be the U.S. in WWII. In order to end WWII the U.S. had to drop a nuclear bomb on Hiroshima/Nagasaki, killing/burning alive many men, women, children, and infants. The U.S. did this because they had no other choice; in the same way, God may have to exterminate a civilization because he has no other choice: in other words, they will keep being evil and attacking/antagonizing the people of God until they’re all dead.
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Well written and agree.
 
oldcelt said:
I think it is quite apparent that our beliefs are far apart. Everyone here, with a few exceptions, just wants to forget about the purported omniscience and omnipotence of the Christian God. He created these people with infallible knowledge of how they would be and then punished them for being that way. There is no logical way around that, only the ever-convenient “mystery” excuse.
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God knew that they would be that way, but is it his fault they would be that way?

God doesn’t control someone’s actions. It’s not his will that any perish, but that all come to repentance. So is it God’s fault that someone rebels against him? Just because God foreknows a person’s decisions does not mean that God forced the person to make those decisions.
 
Achilles6129 said:
God knew that they would be that way, but is it his fault they would be that way?

God doesn’t control someone’s actions. It’s not his will that any perish, but that all come to repentance. So is it God’s fault that someone rebels against him? Just because God foreknows a person’s decisions does not mean that God forced the person to make those decisions.
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That’s his argument. If there is not the god of deism, who is aloof, disinterested, and not a “micromanager”, the only other possibility is that God must be the “micromanager” that he abhors. Not merely just giving us being, but He must be a puppet master of all his creation.

Who cares if its a giant strawman so long as its useful for beguiling those not as adept at logic and reasoning.
 
oldcelt said:
Nope, my God is not involved in killing children. Strange concept of justice you have there.
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There is joy and sorrow in that picture.
It touches the deepest parts of the Heart.
My God is with that child, with that family.
Without Him the pain is inconsoleable.

Your god is not involved in killing children.He just doesn’t care.
Now, Shiva is creator and destroyer. He actually kills children.
Neither of these two seem to upset you.
No, you have it in for God.

Does He or does He not exist?
 
Aloysium said:
There is joy and sorrow in that picture.
It touches the deepest parts of the Heart.
My God is with that child, with that family.
Without Him the pain is inconsoleable.

Your god is not involved in killing children.He just doesn’t care.
Now, Shiva is creator and destroyer. He actually kills children.
Neither of these two seem to upset you.
No, you have it in for God.

Does He or does He not exist?
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Shiva is irrelevant to me. No, the Christian God cannot exist, and I have been citing these obvious cruelties to make my point. We do not know if the God of Deism “cares.” We just believe that he doesn’t intervene and hasn’t for possibly billions of years. We arrive at that through observation of the natural world, not revelation supposedly handed down from a deity.
Just supposing that some of the revelations recorded in the bible actually happened, it seems to me that they might have been talking to the wrong guy.

And I find no joy in a young life ended so horribly, only sorrow. I watched the reports on this girl daily. It was a truly horrid thing to observe.
 
Achilles6129 said:
God knew that they would be that way, but is it his fault they would be that way?

God doesn’t control someone’s actions. It’s not his will that any perish, but that all come to repentance. So is it God’s fault that someone rebels against him? Just because God foreknows a person’s decisions does not mean that God forced the person to make those decisions.
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He’s the creator…certainly it’s His fault. If Gm puts out a defective auto and people are killed, is it their fault? You bet it is.
If a deity creates a sentient being knowing that they will displease him, he has condemned them before they are even conceived.
 
Amandil said:
That’s his argument. If there is not the god of deism, who is aloof, disinterested, and not a “micromanager”, the only other possibility is that God must be the “micromanager” that he abhors. Not merely just giving us being, but He must be a puppet master of all his creation.

Who cares if its a giant strawman so long as its useful for beguiling those not as adept at logic and reasoning.
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Still having trouble with your terminology I see. Strawman- a sham argument set up to be defeated.
Actually, given the odds, I have done quite well and even now have some of similar thought here. My argument is that the all-loving god that people speak of is inconsistent with observation…unless someone has a very different description of love than the people I know.
 
oldcelt said:
Still having trouble with your terminology I see. Strawman- a sham argument set up to be defeated.
Actually, given the odds, I have done quite well and even now have some of similar thought here. My argument is that the all-loving god that people speak of is inconsistent with observation…unless someone has a very different description of love than the people I know.
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Do you respect the right of those you love to choose what to believe and how to live even if you strongly disagree with them?
 
Achilles6129 said:
in the same way, God may have to exterminate a civilization because he has no other choice:
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God had no other choice? Yeah, I can see Him sitting there thinking to Himself: Well, I can’t see that I’ve got any other options here. It looks like I’m going to have to kill them. If only there were another way out. Something else I could do. But…I guess my hands are tied. Can’t blame me, anyway…
 
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