How could a moral God allow suffering?

[Bradski]

But neither have you answered the question.

Because, and I really try not to be as abrupt on forums as I’m now going to be, it is a stupid question.

If you don’t think that it is then maybe you can explain how it is in certain circumstances God finds Himself restricted to only one option.

 

[oldcelt]

To be honest, i think that statement covers everything you have written in this thread!! lol

We’ll see, won’t we?

 

[Achilles6129]

It’s OK, I knew you weren’t kidding. I just said it as a means of expressing complete bewilderment and astonishment.

Because, and I really try not to be as abrupt on forums as I’m now going to be, it is a stupid question.

If you don’t think that it is then maybe you can explain how it is in certain circumstances God finds Himself restricted to only one option.

God can easily find himself restricted to only one option in certain situations because human beings are free to disobey his commands. Since God can’t make anyone obey him, there is always a possibility human beings could disobey him and he might eventually have to destroy them.

 

[oldcelt]

God can easily find himself restricted to only one option in certain situations because human beings are free to disobey his commands. Since God can’t make anyone obey him, there is always a possibility human beings could disobey him and he might eventually have to destroy them.

All of which, according to Christian belief, he knew in advance.No matter how you try to slice it, that foreknowledge leaves-left the Christian god with a range of options…yet he chose to create these people knowing he would destroy them.
If, as you are claiming, he had no choices, then toss omnipotence out the window.

 

[davidv]

All of which, according to Christian belief, he knew in advance.No matter how you try to slice it, that foreknowledge leaves-left the Christian god with a range of options…yet he chose to create these people knowing he would destroy them.

Given Catholic theology, “destroy them” is a inaccurate description the final end an unrepentent sinner.

If, as you are claiming, he had no choices, then toss omnipotence out the window.

Seems like this does not follow. God’s choice was made when He shared His power by imbuing us with free will.

 

[oldcelt]

Given Catholic theology, “destroy them” is a inaccurate description the final end an unrepentent sinner.

Seems like this does not follow. God’s choice was made when He shared His power by imbuing us with free will./QUOTE]

Great gift…he gave them enough rope to hang themselves and knew that they would.
The big part that is missing is that the Christian god grants no free will relative to being created. It is just a guess, but I believe that many would say Thanks for the thought, but I’ll turn that down. Non-existence would be preferable.

 

[davidv]

davidv;12239211:

Given Catholic theology, “destroy them” is a inaccurate description the final end an unrepentent sinner.

Seems like this does not follow. God’s choice was made when He shared His power by imbuing us with free will.

/QUOTE]

Great gift…he gave them enough rope to hang themselves and knew that they would.
The big part that is missing is that the Christian god grants no free will relative to being created. It is just a guess, but I believe that many would say Thanks for the thought, but I’ll turn that down. Non-existence would be preferable.
Sorry to hear that.

 

[oldcelt]

oldcelt;12239235:

Sorry to hear that.

Sorry to hear that a logical human being would choose non-existence over eternal torment? Does that truly surprise you?

 

[Bradski]

God can easily find himself restricted to only one option…

If you keep tossing them up like this, you’re going to spend most of your time here looking for your balls because they are going to get hit out of the stadium every time.

 

[Richca]

davidv;12239211:

Given Catholic theology, “destroy them” is a inaccurate description the final end an unrepentent sinner.

Seems like this does not follow. God’s choice was made when He shared His power by imbuing us with free will.

/QUOTE]

Great gift…he gave them enough rope to hang themselves and knew that they would.
The big part that is missing is that the Christian god grants no free will relative to being created. It is just a guess, but I believe that many would say Thanks for the thought, but I’ll turn that down. Non-existence would be preferable.

St Paul says “just as through one transgression condemnation came upon all” and “For just as through the disobedience of one person the many were made sinners” (Romans 5: 18-19).

And St John says “If we say, “We are without sin,” we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us” (1 John 1:8).

And Jesus said to the crowd about the adulterous woman “Let the one among you who is without sin, cast the first stone” ( John 8:7).

Both the saved and the unsaved are in the same boat in this present life, i.e., they need salvation from God and the forgiveness of their sins. The difference between the two are that the former repent of their sins and seek salvation from God while the latter do not.

Apparently and happily so, for the sake of those who would repent of their sins and be saved and thus have a share in God’s eternal beatitude, God chose to create human beings.

 

[oldcelt]

If you keep tossing them up like this, you’re going to spend most of your time here looking for your balls because they are going to get hit out of the stadium every time.

Yeah, that pitch was pretty fat. An omnipotent being with only one choice. An omniscient creator with only choice. I wonder where he found this fascinating tidbit and where his evidence is?

 

[oldcelt]

oldcelt;12239235:

St Paul says “just as through one transgression condemnation came upon all” and “For just as through the disobedience of one person the many were made sinners” (Romans 5: 18-19).

And St John says “If we say, “We are without sin,” we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us” (1 John 1:8).

And Jesus said to the crowd about the adulterous woman “Let the one among you who is without sin, cast the first stone” ( John 8:7).

Both the saved and the unsaved are in the same boat in this present life, i.e., they need salvation from God and the forgiveness of their sins. The difference between the two are that the former repent of their sins and seek salvation from God while the latter do not.

Apparently and happily so, for the sake of those who would repent of their sins and be saved and thus have a share in God’s eternal beatitude, God chose to create human beings.

I fail to see how any of those passages have anything to do with my statement. That Christian doctrine says that all are sinners is not exactly breaking news.

 

[tonyrey]

davidv;12239211:

Given Catholic theology, “destroy them” is a inaccurate description the final end an unrepentent sinner.

Seems like this does not follow. God’s choice was made when He shared His power by imbuing us with free will.

/QUOTE]

Great gift…he gave them enough rope to hang themselves and knew that they would.
The big part that is missing is that the Christian god grants no free will relative to being created. It is just a guess, but I believe that many would say Thanks for the thought, but I’ll turn that down. Non-existence would be preferable.
How can we possibly be given the choice of whether to exist or not? :juggle:

 

[tonyrey]

I think there is a great deal of question about that under the Christian God. With infallible foreknowledge He could have created anyone of those people differently. He chose not to, unless you believe that God has no choices.

Your objection certainly applies to robots but not persons capable of choosing to be selfish or unselfish - unless you believe we can never decide for ourselves… :hypno:

 

[Achilles6129]

All of which, according to Christian belief, he knew in advance.No matter how you try to slice it, that foreknowledge leaves-left the Christian god with a range of options…yet he chose to create these people knowing he would destroy them.
If, as you are claiming, he had no choices, then toss omnipotence out the window.

He chose to create them knowing he would destroy them, but his destroying them is not his fault, it’s their fault. When God chose to create them he didn’t* intend *to destroy them; his intention to destroy them only came about after their own disobedience.

Seems like this does not follow. God’s choice was made when He shared His power by imbuing us with free will./QUOTE]

I wouldn’t say he “imbued” anyone with free will, I would say that he simply didn’t force anyone to obey his commands.
oldcelt;12239235:

Great gift…he gave them enough rope to hang themselves and knew that they would.

And the fact that they hung themselves was their own fault.

Your choices and actions have consequences. God didn’t create anyone to send them away to eternal torment in hell; that wasn’t a part of his plan. However, people will go away into eternal torment in hell because of their own choices and actions.

davidv;12239253:

Sorry to hear that a logical human being would choose non-existence over eternal torment? Does that truly surprise you?

The question is whether or not they deserve eternal torment. I can make a case from both Scripture and logic that they do. I’m guessing that many human beings would also choose non-existence over something like, say, life in prison; again, the question is whether or not they actually deserve life in prison.

Yeah, that pitch was pretty fat. An omnipotent being with only one choice. An omniscient creator with only choice. I wonder where he found this fascinating tidbit and where his evidence is?

Pretty easy: there’s really only one thing that you can do with an unrepentantly evil civilization.

 

[Achilles6129]

If you keep tossing them up like this, you’re going to spend most of your time here looking for your balls because they are going to get hit out of the stadium every time.

I’m sorry? I didn’t really see you or anyone else say anything that was necessary to address.

 

[oldcelt]

He chose to create them knowing he would destroy them, but his destroying them is not his fault, it’s their fault. When God chose to create them he didn’t* intend *to destroy them; his intention to destroy them only came about after their own disobedience.
oldcelt;12239235:

Seems like this does not follow. God’s choice was made when He shared His power by imbuing us with free will.

/QUOTE]

I wouldn’t say he “imbued” anyone with free will, I would say that he simply didn’t force anyone to obey his commands.

**And the fact that they hung themselves was their own fault.

Your choices and actions have consequences. God didn’t create anyone to send them away to eternal torment in hell; that wasn’t a part of his plan. However, people will go away into eternal torment in hell because of their own choices and actions.**

The question is whether or not they deserve eternal torment. I can make a case from both Scripture and logic that they do. I’m guessing that many human beings would also choose non-existence over something like, say, life in prison; again, the question is whether or not they actually deserve life in prison.

Pretty easy: there’s really only one thing that you can do with an unrepentantly evil civilization.

Which your God knew when he created them and if he didn’t plan to send anyone to torment, he must have changed his mind. You believe in hell, so if your God didn’t create it, who did? t didn’t just evolve, did it?

I’m supposing that you will think that the only thing to do with an unrepentant civilization is to kill everyone, including the children. There’s that all-loving god again.

 

[Achilles6129]

Just FYI - your post is formatted poorly.

Which your God knew when he created them and if he didn’t plan to send anyone to torment, he must have changed his mind. You believe in hell, so if your God didn’t create it, who did? t didn’t just evolve, did it?

God created hell, obviously, as a punishment for evildoers. This doesn’t mean that God wanted anyone to go to hell, only that they end up there because they do evil. We come back again to the fact that actions have consequences and that God’s foreknowledge is not responsible for someone’s deliberate choice to do evil.

Foreknowledge does not = responsibility. In any case, you certainly have not shown (or even begun to show) that it does.

I’m supposing that you will think that the only thing to do with an unrepentant civilization is to kill everyone, including the children. There’s that all-loving god again.

You seem to believe that “all-loving” means that there is no wrath or judgment. I think you have your definition of “love” wrong. In any case, we could both agree that the God of the Bible (and reality) could in no case be considered “loving” by the standards of human nature, so I wouldn’t be surprised that you would find the extermination of a civilization (or all of humanity) to be “unloving.”

There are definitely circumstances where the extermination of a society is justified. I pointed out earlier how the U.S. dropped two nuclear bombs on Japan during WWII which killed men, women, children, and infants. This was done in a desperate attempt to end a war with an unrepentantly antagonistic society. The exact same principle applies when we consider the fact that God is going to have to exterminate the human race from the planet (and already has in the past).

I’ll ask again: explain what God is supposed to do with an unrepentantly evil civilization, other than destroy it.

 

[Bradski]

I’ll ask again: explain what God is supposed to do with an unrepentantly evil civilization, other than destroy it.

Same underarm pitch. Same result.

 

[oldcelt]

Just FYI - your post is formatted poorly.

God created hell, obviously, as a punishment for evildoers. This doesn’t mean that God wanted anyone to go to hell, only that they end up there because they do evil. We come back again to the fact that actions have consequences and that God’s foreknowledge is not responsible for someone’s deliberate choice to do evil.

Foreknowledge does not = responsibility. In any case, you certainly have not shown (or even begun to show) that it does.

You seem to believe that “all-loving” means that there is no wrath or judgment. I think you have your definition of “love” wrong. In any case, we could both agree that the God of the Bible (and reality) could in no case be considered “loving” by the standards of human nature, so I wouldn’t be surprised that you would find the extermination of a civilization (or all of humanity) to be “unloving.”

There are definitely circumstances where the extermination of a society is justified. I pointed out earlier how the U.S. dropped two nuclear bombs on Japan during WWII which killed men, women, children, and infants. This was done in a desperate attempt to end a war with an unrepentantly antagonistic society. **The exact same principle applies when we consider the fact that God is going to have to exterminate the human race from the planet (and already has in the past).

I’ll ask again: explain what God is supposed to do with an unrepentantly evil civilization, other than destroy it**.

The Christian God? Not create humans for the slaughter…that pesky omniscience. So far as exterminating humanity, it hasn’t happen yet, why would it in the future?