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oldcelt
Guest
The US bombings of Hiroshima & Nagasaki were purely human events with which I happen to agree. To the best of my knowledge we received no orders from any almighty and we did not eradicate any civilization. Therefore, the analogy is a poor one.
I believe you will find that to be the case with any modern human events. We gave up on writing fictional encounters with some god as our justification long ago.
I believe you will find that to be the case with any modern human events. We gave up on writing fictional encounters with some god as our justification long ago.
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tonyrey
Guest
Hell is not a place but a spiritual state of self-inflicted isolation and frustration.
There is no such thing as “an unrepentantly evil civilization”. Evil is the result of choices by **individuals.
**God is the Creator not the Destroyer. He does not mete out unjust and indiscriminate suffering on men, women and children like some ruthless members of the human race.
God is an infinitely loving Father who cares for all His children even when they reject Him:
“Love is not love
Which alters when it alteration finds,
Or bends with the remover to remove.
O no, it is an ever-fixed mark
That looks on tempests and is never shaken;
It is the star to every wand’ring bark,
Whose worth’s unknown, although his height be taken." **- **William Shakespeare
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Bradski
Guest
Hey, OldCelt. I’ll meet you in the peanut gallery for a beer while these two sort things out.
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oldcelt
Guest
Sounds like a winner; especially since neither of us believe in hell.
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oldcelt
Guest
Originally Posted by Achilles6129 View Post
Just FYI - your post is formatted poorly.
God created hell, obviously, as a punishment for evildoers. This doesn’t mean that God wanted anyone to go to hell, only that they end up there because they do evil. We come back again to the fact that actions have consequences and that God’s foreknowledge is not responsible for someone’s deliberate choice to do evil.
Foreknowledge does not = responsibility. In any case, you certainly have not shown (or even begun to show) that it does.
Clever beginning, and I don’t see ypu offering anything approach proof. But I will offer proof from the human race…Foreknowledge of faulty item + creation of faulty item = responsibility. Now, let’s put it in deity terms…Deity knows people are doomed before creating them + He still creates them = He is responsible for those souls in hell
Just FYI - your post is formatted poorly.
God created hell, obviously, as a punishment for evildoers. This doesn’t mean that God wanted anyone to go to hell, only that they end up there because they do evil. We come back again to the fact that actions have consequences and that God’s foreknowledge is not responsible for someone’s deliberate choice to do evil.
Foreknowledge does not = responsibility. In any case, you certainly have not shown (or even begun to show) that it does.
Clever beginning, and I don’t see ypu offering anything approach proof. But I will offer proof from the human race…Foreknowledge of faulty item + creation of faulty item = responsibility. Now, let’s put it in deity terms…Deity knows people are doomed before creating them + He still creates them = He is responsible for those souls in hell
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fred_conty
Guest
Because the good God is being good to them by giving them what they want…away from him.
Even at the end of a life, God offers forgiveness and peace. So it is never too late as far as God is concerned. But when a person sees God as a strange person, or as being unethical, at the end of his life, then why would a man chose God whom he doesn’t admire or think in friendly terms with. A man is going to go the way he is convinced of…that God offers no meaning.
May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.
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Achilles6129
Guest
Not really - you’ve said nothing of substance so there’s nothing really to address.
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Achilles6129
Guest
Good news: God didn’t create humans for slaughter.
As far as exterminating humanity is concerned, God did exterminate all of (evil) humanity in a global flood thousands of years ago. He also exterminated all of the civilizations in the land of Canaan as well as the civilizations of King Sihon/Og outside of Canaan. And, he will do so again in the book of Revelation.
This forum has formatting issues that need to be fixed. It’s not easy to format posts here which was why I was giving you a heads up.
You eradicated an entire society filled with men, women, children, and infants. God’s eradication of humanity (or the civilizations in Canaan, or the Amalekites, or whatever) is merely an expansion of the nuclear bombings of Hiroshima/Nagasaki. The same principle that governs those bombings applies here as well.
To claim that God is evil because he exterminates civilizations filled with men, women, children, and infants, and then to turn around and do the same is the height of hypocrisy.
So here are your points:
- God had foreknowledge of the faulty item
- God created the faulty item
- God is responsible for the faulty item going to hell (from 1,2)
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oldcelt
Guest
This is how I see things:
If God acts as you believe He starts the whole process with many unwilling subjects; a major violation of free will. He then holds them guilty of sins that were committed thousands of years ago, sends his word during a time when communication was virtually non-existent, to only one small area of the world, in obscure and often difficult to understand prose. All the while knowing precisely what will happen to each and every one of these people. Along the way He directly orders or commits what can only be described as atrocities.
Admitting that the first attempt was a failure, He tried another tact that was rejected by the vast majority of the people who were present. Then He supposedly inspires others to write of these events in an obscure and generally unused language (Aramaic), creates a church headed, well, you know all that.
None of this makes much sense to me when I observe history and day to day life. Suffering among the most innocent is rampant and there is no logic to it.
We need a creator to start the process, but the father-figure concept has been a major failure, in my opinion. I believe it to be a type of historic fiction, much as Thomas Jefferson did…though we vary on some key points.
There it is. I believe in a God who began creation and is still out there. Perhaps He has shown us greater love by simply leaving us alone.
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Achilles6129
Guest
I’m afraid I’m going to have to disagree. Scripture paints a much different view of hell.
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oldcelt
Guest
My belief goes one better…God didn’t create humans at all. He began the universe and observed the result. He didn’t blame us for the sin of two people we never met. etc., etc., etc.
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Achilles6129
Guest
So he’s never going to intervene to end all evil, eh?
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tonyrey
Guest
The Jews often used images and hyperbole to emphasize a point. Only Fundamentalists interpret everything in Scripture literally.
And each one is responsible for his or her own destiny.
Civilizations include innocent individuals, particularly children:
Matthew 19:14
Does “you” include young children?
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Achilles6129
Guest
In this case the strongest statements possible are given in Scripture to make us believe that hell is a place of torture. If Christ wanted to make it clear he was using hyperbole, he would have. He did not.
Only God can know if they’ll grow up to be like their parents or not. In addition, we’re not talking about children in the context of eternal damnation in hell; we’re talking about them in the context of God totally destroying a civilization. So if someone’s truly innocent then they aren’t really destroyed by God at all, since the righteous can never see death (Jn. 8:51, etc.).
Like I said, only God can know whether or not they will grow up to be like their parents.Matthew 19:14
Does “you” include young children?
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Bradski
Guest
Then why aren’t you scared witless about the possibility of ending up there? Or do you somehow know that you won’t. In which case, what makes you different?
Are you saying that He created them knowing that He was going to kill them?
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Achilles6129
Guest
Those who obey God’s commands will never go to hell.
God foreknows everything, so obviously if he’s going to destroy a civilization then yes, God created them knowing he was going to kill them (physically, at least). The same applies to eternal damnation in hell; obviously when God creates someone he knows whether or not they’re going to hell.
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ajecphotos
Guest
Maybe, just maybe, we have a choice as to whether or not we go to heaven or not!
Having free will, we have a choice to mend our ways? Maybe God has 2 roads mapped out for us and a crossroads where ultimately we decide where we go by our choices in life? Heaven or Hell!
Having free will, we have a choice to mend our ways? Maybe God has 2 roads mapped out for us and a crossroads where ultimately we decide where we go by our choices in life? Heaven or Hell!
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Bradski
Guest
All of them?
Do you know anyone yourself who is likely to end up there? I mean personally?
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Achilles6129
Guest
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