How could a moral God allow suffering?

[KathleenGee]

The Hebrew Christians continued to worship the Lord keeping the Sabbath, but later broke away, having been expelled from the Orthodox synagogue 40 years after Pentecost.

They broke with the 40 day fast and began to worship instead on the 8th day, Sunday.

The Gentile Christians by then were already established worshipping the Lord on the 8th day, the Lord’s Day.

The Jews continue to observe the Sabbath. The Christians honor the Lord’s death and resurrection by which all of creation was made new through Jesus, subsequently fulfilling the Sabbath by keeping sacred the Lord’s Day, Sunday.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Could the Deist God, that I believe exists, take an interest in us and end all the suffering? I’m honestly not sure. It doesn’t seem to be in his nature.

You have hit upon an interesting note. I agree that it doesn’t seem to be in the Deist God’s nature. But it is the nature of the Christian God to assuage much evil, if not all evil. Christ teaches us how to be good, and encourages us by grace to follow his teachings. There is no comparable theory of the Deist God since that God lacks personality.

As to ridding the world of all the sufferings of the world, I don’t see that as being the prime mission of Creation. The prime mission is to give everyone the free will to decide whether he will choose suffering as a way of life, or choose to live in such a way as to avoid all suffering or as much suffering as can be avoided. I’m not so sure that removing all suffering is even warranted in God’s plan. If we have freedom to choose, we should also have the freedom to face the consequences of our choices. To create only the people who are going to freely choose to be virtuous and happy (denying creation to any other kind of human) means that suffering will be abolished on the moral grounds, but only because God has arranged things in such a way that the virtuous will not be free to choose evil, since the people who would have done evil are not in the world to tempt them to that end.

As for natural evil producing natural suffering, that is a dilemma that has never been solved by any philosopher or theologian I have studied. Earthquakes and floods kill or cause great suffering to the innocent without mercy. Why does that have to be? I don’t know. There are some questions about the world and about God that just cannot be answered and will or may always be unanswerable.

Scientists don’t know exactly what happened in the first seconds of Creation. That is God’s secret. Scientists may never know whether Einstein and Heisenberg can be reconciled in some nebulous Theory of Everything. That too may be God’s secret. There may be reasons for allowing natural suffering that we cannot understand, but that God does understand all too well. Theologians, like scientists, run up against impenetrable stone walls of logic. But a stone wall of logic does not ruin religion any more than a stone wall of logic ruins science.

 

[madera]

1. 
   

   No, he doesn’t have any other choice. Explain what other choice he might have with an unrepentantly evil civilization.

   That is right on. God chooses what He chooses and no one in their right mind would dare question Him.

 

[tonyrey]

But I have Tony, you just didn’t follow. I have said over and over that suffering here on earth could be prevented by any involved omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent god. But we don’t have one of those…do we? Apparently not, because the power of omnipotence alone would suffice.

You have never explained how **all **suffering here on earth could be prevented:

85 God is infinitely good and all his works are good. Yet** no one can escape the experience of suffering or the evils in nature which seem to be linked to the limitations proper to creatures**: and above all to the question of moral evil.

The key word is “limitations”. Only God is successful in every respect. All creatures are bound to fail sooner or later in some way - and suffer accordingly. You are demanding perfection in this world - which is a physical impossibility.

No, we have a creator god and the suffering on this planet is either natural or caused by other humans or ourselves…God has nothing to do with it…those are my beliefs.

God has everything to do with it because He created everything and everyone. He created natural laws and gave us the power of self-control.

You don’t seem to understand when someone is playing Devil’s Advocate to make a point. The point…the Abrahamic /Christian God does not exist because no God with its claimed powers could allow such suffering.(The OP) Remember, the Christian God is said to be intimately involved with life on earth.

I understand that you are mistaken in your belief that** all** suffering on earth could be prevented by God without defeating the purpose for which we are created.

Could the Deist God, that I believe exists, take an interest in us and end all the suffering? I’m honestly not sure. It doesn’t seem to be in his nature.

You believe in the Deist God precisely because you believe **all **suffering is unnecessary!

 

[Tomdstone]

You have never explained how **all **suffering here on earth could be prevented:

The key word is “limitations”. Only God is successful in every respect. All creatures are bound to fail sooner or later in some way - and suffer accordingly. You are demanding perfection in this world - which is a physical impossibility.

God has everything to do with it because He created everything and everyone. He created natural laws and gave us the power of self-control.

I understand that you are mistaken in your belief that** all** suffering on earth could be prevented by God without defeating the purpose for which we are created.

You believe in the Deist God precisely because you believe **all **suffering is unnecessary!

We know already that there are some limits on what the Judaeo Christian God can do. For example, God cannot make a stone which He cannot lift. Or God cannot make a circle which is a square. Or God cannot make a Euclidean isosceles triangle with unequal base angles. Or that God cannot make a Euclidean equilateral triangle which is not equiangular. Why then would it be unreasonable for a Deist to say that there are other limitations on the powers of God or that He is not all-powerful?

 

[davidv]

We know already that there are some limits on what the Judaeo Christian God can do. For example, God cannot make a stone which He cannot lift. Or God cannot make a circle which is a square. Or God cannot make a Euclidean isosceles triangle with unequal base angles. Or that God cannot make a Euclidean equilateral triangle which is not equiangular.

These are not limitations. They are contradictions.

Why then would it be unreasonable for a Deist to say that there are other limitations on the powers of God or that He is not all-powerful?

Because it is not true.

 

[oldcelt]

These are not limitations. They are contradictions.

Because it is not true.

Deists typically have broad shoulders and a kindly demeanor. They know that nobody can be absolutely certain of anything that we can’t study.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Deists typically have broad shoulders and a kindly demeanor. They know that nobody can be absolutely certain of anything that we can’t study.

But can they be relatively convinced about anything they can’t study?

For example, can you be relatively convinced about a Deist God even though you can’t possibly study Him?

 

[Achilles6129]

Do you really believe an infinitely loving Father would deliberately inflict an eternity of suffering on His children by creating an indestructible torture chamber?

The children of God don’t go to hell; the children of Satan do:

“38 and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one;” Mt. 13:38 (NASB)

“** the one who practices sin is of the devil**; for the devil [c]has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is [d]born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is [e]born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: [f]anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.” 1 Jn. 3:8-10 (NASB)

Jesus quoted Hosea:

Hosea 6:6

There are obviously different contexts of Christ’s ministry. We have to look at the whole, not just a part.

You are implying life on this earth is** totally **insignificant.

Not at all.

Doesn’t it matter **at all **if children are killed before they have had a chance to develop?

There are instances where God might have to totally destroy a civilization and where he has no other choice. Like I’ve said previously, if a civilization is unrepentantly evil then God really has no other option than to completely destroy it; obviously this includes children. Only God can know when a civilization is beyond the point of no return and only God can know that these children will grow up to be evil.

I should also mention that no unjustified suffering ever goes unavenged by God. God can allow the righteous (or in this case, children) to suffer even if they’ve done nothing wrong because God can undo all evil. This, as I said before in this thread, is the solution to the problem of evil. Several Biblical passages that show that nothing can truly harm the righteous are:

“18 Yet not a hair of your head will perish.” Lu. 21:18 (NASB) (In the context of death)

“51 Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death.”” Jn. 8:51 (NASB)

There are, needless to say, many others. You can trust that no permanent damage was ever inflicted upon anyone who did not deserve it. To claim that there was some sort of permanent damage inflicted is to deny Biblical theology.

 

[tonyrey]

The children of God don’t go to hell; the children of Satan do:

“38 and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one;” Mt. 13:38 (NASB)

“** the one who practices sin is of the devil**; for the devil [c]has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is [d]born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is [e]born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: [f]anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.” 1 Jn. 3:8-10 (NASB)

There are obviously different contexts of Christ’s ministry. We have to look at the whole, not just a part.

Not at all.

There are instances where God might have to totally destroy a civilization and where he has no other choice. Like I’ve said previously, if a civilization is unrepentantly evil then God really has no other option than to completely destroy it; obviously this includes children. Only God can know when a civilization is beyond the point of no return and only God can know that these children will grow up to be evil.

I should also mention that no unjustified suffering ever goes unavenged by God. God can allow the righteous (or in this case, children) to suffer even if they’ve done nothing wrong because God can undo all evil. This, as I said before in this thread, is the solution to the problem of evil. Several Biblical passages that show that nothing can truly harm the righteous are:

“18 Yet not a hair of your head will perish.” Lu. 21:18 (NASB) (In the context of death)

“51 Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death.”” Jn. 8:51 (NASB)

There are, needless to say, many others. You can trust that no permanent damage was ever inflicted upon anyone who did not deserve it. To claim that there was some sort of permanent damage inflicted is to deny Biblical theology.

 

[tonyrey]

…
There are instances where God might have to totally destroy a civilization and where he has no other choice. Like I’ve said previously, if a civilization is unrepentantly evil then God really has no other option than to completely destroy it; obviously this includes children.

It is presumptuous to impose limits on God by saying He “has no other option”. God is not compelled to do anything, let alone commit an atrocity.

Only God can know when a civilization is beyond the point of no return and only God can know that these children will grow up to be evil.

Children cannot “grow up to be evil” because then they would lack free will.

Nor does it make sense to describe a civilization as “unrepentantly evil”. We are not condemned* en masse* but created as individuals who are responsible for our own destiny:

405 Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendants.

The same principle applies to actual sin. Indiscriminate slaughter is not meted out by God but by members of the human race.

 

[Achilles6129]

It is presumptuous to impose limits on God by saying He “has no other option”. God is not compelled to do anything, let alone commit an atrocity.

Human choices can negate the will of God. This is shown throughout all of Scripture. For example, it is not the will of God that anyone perish yet obviously people still do. I also dispute your claim that God commits atrocities; rather, it’s the civilizations he’s destroying that commit atrocities.

Children cannot “grow up to be evil” because then they would lack free will.

They can choose to be evil.

Nor does it make sense to describe a civilization as “unrepentantly evil”. We are not condemned* en masse* but created as individuals who are responsible for our own destiny:

Individuals can collectively all be evil. There are examples of unrepentantly evil civilizations inside of the Bible.

Indiscriminate slaughter is not meted out by God

You’re correct. He always has a good reason for destroying anyone.

 

[Bradski]

There are examples of unrepentantly evil civilizations inside of the Bible.

Haven’t you ever pondered why all the people, all the ‘evil civilisations’ that God killed all lived in biblical times?

What about all the undoubted evil that has taken place since which He seems to have ignored? Either He has literally ignored it or it just wasn’t evil enough for Him to get involved.

How come He can kill children (because they might turn out to be evil) yet not stop the Kymer Rouge, for example, killing millions?

 

[Aloysium]

Haven’t you ever pondered why all the people, all the ‘evil civilisations’ that God killed all lived in biblical times?

What about all the undoubted evil that has taken place since which He seems to have ignored? Either He has literally ignored it or it just wasn’t evil enough for Him to get involved.

How come He can kill children (because they might turn out to be evil) yet not stop the Kymer Rouge, for example, killing millions?

I hadn’t thought about it; so, thanks for bringing it up. In earlier times, I would have seen the evil that is an integral part of this world, as simply a fact of life. Now I understand what and why it is.

If you truly wanted to know why God does what He does, you would not be asking random people on the internet.

I am using this opportunity for me to discover what I think and to share it with people who see things on similar lines.
There is no point in arguing the matter. Believe what you will.

Here is my answer:
The way was being prepared for the incarnation of the Word. We otherwise would be all doomed to hell. So, anything that prevents this from happening is good.
I would imagine that many (imho, but it could be all) of those sacrificed would have eternal life in Christ.

At any rate, with regards to the Khmer Rouge, there aren’t many around and those who are are being sought for prosecution.
This has happened because there is an innate awareness of what is good and just in humanity. These are rooted in love which is at the very Centre of reality.

That’s how I see it. I don’t have much else to say.

 

[Taliya]

The “quote” function, Makes everything much easier.

Suppose that you are a sketch artist. You make a sketch, but become displeased with it, as it did not turn out as you hoped. So, you wad it up and recycle it. Have you acted immorally? You created it and you disposed of it, as you had the absolute right to do. And, so it is with God and all of creation.

For those who believe in an eternal, omniscient and loving God, He is perfection, while we have fallen, sinful natures. The fallen nature of this earth is why sin and suffering exists in the first place.

God is above that, since He is incapable of being less than perfect. Thus, everything He does is perfection. He does not cause suffering, but can bring good from it. No one, and nothing else can do that.

 

[madera]

The US bombings of Hiroshima & Nagasaki were purely human events with which I happen to agree. To the best of my knowledge we received no orders from any almighty and we did not eradicate any civilization. Therefore, the analogy is a poor one.
I believe you will find that to be the case with any modern human events. We gave up on writing fictional encounters with some god as our justification long ago.

DId you want HIm to send you a telegram?
When you gave up on God, you should have given up on the entity you thought was God instead.
When someone says they give up on God its because they never knew HIm. They thought the entity was God.
God have mercy on your soul.
d.

 

[Tomdstone]

God created hell, obviously, as a punishment for evildoers.

Is it only evildoers who will go to hell? For example, eating a hot dog at a baseball game on a Friday of Lent is a mortal sin in some locations.

 

[madera]

But what about the suffering of children, who did not do anything wrong, and do not have perfect free will?

The sins of the parents are viisited on the chldren.

 

[Tomdstone]

The sins of the parents are viisited on the chldren.

Why is it fair to punish and torment a child if his parents did something wrong? Suppose for example, the father got boiling angry and cursed the drivers on the freeway, promising violent revenge to someone who had cut him off. Would you then beat the child and put him in detention because of what his father did? I don’t see where that would make any sense.

 

[Tomdstone]

God created hell, obviously, as a punishment for evildoers.

This idea of evildoing seems to be overrated. For example, it is a mortal sin to use any form of artificial contraception. And yet, many polls show that a very large percentage of married American Roman Catholic women are using or have used some form of artificial contraception. But I don’t think that most Roman Catholic wives are evildoers.