How could a moral God allow suffering?

[Amandil]

I think it’s safe to say that any given atheist treats most stories in the bible as being non-literal.

No, they treat them as “myth” as in “fairy story”.

When sections are quoted it is generally done to find out which of the Christians taking part in the discussion are fundamentalists. Which, in this particular discussion, seems to vary.

No, the sections are “quoted”(and that even at best is taken in the loosest sense) to try and make some cheap debate point by trying to play the “gotcha” game without any real examination of the text being done.

We’re not finding out more about God. We’re finding out more about you…

And vice-versa.

 

[Tomdstone]

Tomdstone is clearly ripping the Bible out of context(as usual scratch an atheist and you find a fundamentalist), …

This is obviously a personal ad hominem attack on me, when the question concerns whether or not according to Holy Scripture God commanded that children be killed. The honest approach to this question would be to respond to the texts in question and to explain what they mean. I had nothing to do with the writing of the Bible, so to attack me personally in an attempt to resolve the question of the meaning of these Biblical quotes is basically a non-answer.

 

[Amandil]

This is obviously a personal ad hominem attack on me, when the question concerns whether or not according to Holy Scripture God commanded that children be killed. The honest approach to this question would be to respond to the texts in question and to explain what they mean. I had nothing to do with the writing of the Bible, so to attack me personally in an attempt to resolve the question of the meaning of these Biblical quotes is basically a non-answer.

The honest approach would be to provide the Scripture in their full context, not provide “snippets” out of context as a form of confirmation bias.

 

[Tomdstone]

The honest approach would be to provide the Scripture in their full context, not provide “snippets” out of context as a form of confirmation bias.

Someone else said that God does not kill children unless you are a fundamentalist. Without comment, I simply posted a few passages from Holy Scripture, without commenting on these passages one way or another. You then decided to attack me personally rather than give an explanation of these passages from the Holy Bible. Tonyrey says that these passages should not be taken literally. That of course is one explanation. However, it presents problems since it raises the question as to how much of Holy Scripture should be taken figuratively and not literally.Even if these passages are to be taken figuratively, it seems that the inspired writers of these passages in Holy Scriptures thought that they were important because otherwise why would he have included them.
Also, why would the context of these passages be important? If the question is whether or not Holy Scriputre indicates that God commanded that children be killed, do not these passages answer that question? How would you interpret these passages otherwise?
"And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon."Exodus 12:29-30
"If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins. I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted. "(Leviticus 26:21-22)
“Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, “Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple.” So they began by killing the seventy leaders. “Defile the Temple!” the LORD commanded. “Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!” So they went throughout the city and did as they were told.” (Ezekiel 9:5-7}
“Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children.” (Isaiah 13:15-18}
What is your understanding of these passages in Holy Scripture?

 

[Amandil]

Someone else said that God does not kill children unless you are a fundamentalist. Without comment, I simply posted a few passages from Holy Scripture, without commenting on these passages one way or another. You then decided to attack me personally rather than give an explanation of these passages from the Holy Bible.

I did not “attack you personally”. I pointed out an obvious debate tactic you are utilizing to try and make a fallacious argument.

If you weren’t trying to be disingenuous as if all you were doing was just looking for an explanation then you would have cited the context in full. Not cherry picked individual verses.

Tonyrey says that these passages should not be taken literally. That of course is one explanation. However, it presents problems since it raises the question as to how much of Holy Scripture should be taken figuratively and not literally.

That’s neither up to you or Tonyrey.

Also, why would the context of these passages be important?

Really? You might as well ask why oxygen is important to water.

If the question is whether or not Holy Scriputre indicates that God commanded that children be killed, do not these passages answer that question?

No. You’re committing circular logic. You’re assuming that God taking a life against their will is unjust and using those verses as a pretext to accuse God of murder or genocide.

This is absurd. Everything belongs to God absolutely. You do not own your life, you did not create yourself, nor can you hold yourself in existence in perpetuity.

When God takes your physical life He is taking what is already His by rights.

How would you interpret these passages otherwise?
"And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon."Exodus 12:29-30

See above.

"If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins. I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted. "(Leviticus 26:21-22)

It is a warning for breaking the Mosaic covenant. Children are necessarily a sign of blessing for ancient peoples. Thus when that same people are robbed of their children that necessarily means that they are under God’s curse for breaking the covenant.

God takes the children to save them from participating in the sins of their fathers.

“Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, “Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple.” So they began by killing the seventy leaders. “Defile the Temple!” the LORD commanded. “Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!” So they went throughout the city and did as they were told.” (Ezekiel 9:5-7}

This is a vision. Please tell me that you know the difference between a vision and reality.

“Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children.” (Isaiah 13:15-18}
What is your understanding of these passages in Holy Scripture?

An oracle, a vision, against Babylon. Babylon incurred the same wrath for themselves which they doled out against Judah and the other nations they conquered.

I hate to break it to you but ancient near-east armies weren’t as sensitive to the Geneva conventions like so many are today.

 

[Tomdstone]

I did not “attack you personally”. .

Let’s take a look at what you wrote:

Tomdstone is clearly ripping the Bible out of context(as usual scratch an atheist and you find a fundamentalist),…

The implication is that I am an atheist and a fundamentalist. Please explain how calling someone an atheist and a fundamentalist answers the question as to whether or not, according to Holy Scripture, God commanded that children be killed.

 

[Tomdstone]

You’re assuming that God taking a life against their will is unjust and using those verses as a pretext to accuse God of murder or genocide.

You are slandering me here and falsely accusing me of something I never claimed.

 

[madera]

No, they treat them as “myth” as in “fairy story”.

No, the sections are “quoted”(and that even at best is taken in the loosest sense) to try and make some cheap debate point by trying to play the “gotcha” game without any real examination of the text being done.

And vice-versa.

If you want to know about God, You have to simply
look at yourselves honestly because God is in you.
He shows you what seperates you from Him
Scripture says “be still and know”, not try to figure out
everything. He says "of yourselves you can do nothing.

 

[Bradski]

God takes the children to save them from participating in the sins of their fathers.

So you don’t see a problem with God killing children (‘taking’ is such a gentle euphemism) to prevent them doing evil at some point in the future, but allowing people actually committing evil to carry on regardless.

 

[Tomdstone]

The honest approach would be to provide the Scripture in their full context, not provide “snippets” out of context as a form of confirmation bias.

I thought that everyone here knew the context of the following quote:
"And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon."Exodus 12:29
But if not, this is the tenth and last plague inflicted on Egypt to persuade the pharaoh to allow the Jews to leave Egypt for Palestine.
What is there to conclude from this passage from Holy Scripture except that God did command that children be killed, or are we supposed to take this passage figuratively and it never really happened as suggested by tonyrey?
Here is a larger context:
[21] And Moses called all the ancients of the children of Israel, and said to them: Go take a lamb by your families, and sacrifice the Phase. [22] And dip a bunch of hyssop in the blood that is at the door, and sprinkle the transom of the door therewith, and both the door cheeks: let none of you go out of the door of his house till morning. [23] For the Lord will pass through striking the Egyptians: and when he shall see the blood on the transom, and on both the posts, he will pass over the door of the house, and not suffer the destroyer to come into your houses and to hurt you. [24] Thou shalt keep this thing as a law for thee and thy children for ever. [25] And when you have entered into the land which the Lord will give you as he hath promised, you shall observe these ceremonies. [26] And when your children shall say to you: What is the meaning of this service? [27] You shall say to them: It is the victim of the passage of the Lord, when he passed over the houses of the children of Israel in Egypt, striking the Egyptians, and saving our houses. And the people bowing themselves, adored. [28] And the children of Israel going forth did as the Lord had commanded Moses and Aaron. [29] And it came to pass at midnight, the Lord slew every firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharao, who sat on his throne, unto the firstborn of the captive woman that was in the prison, and all the firstborn of cattle. [30] And Pharao arose in the night, and all his servants, and all Egypt: for there was not a house wherein there lay not one dead.

 

[oldcelt]

Let’s take a look at what you wrote:

The implication is that I am an atheist and a fundamentalist. Please explain how calling someone an atheist and a fundamentalist answers the question as to whether or not, according to Holy Scripture, God commanded that children be killed.

Take it as a compliment. When people begin attacking you it is because they are aware that their argument holds no water. That the Abrahamic/Christian God ordered the killing of children is an easy proof, taken from the very sources that promote that God.

 

[madera]

Take it as a compliment. When people begin attacking you it is because they are aware that their argument holds no water. That the Abrahamic/Christian God ordered the killing of children is an easy proof, taken from the very sources that promote that God.

God had His reasons, read Job. And read the results.

 

[oneofmany]

youtube.com/watch?v=cNtz5wgnopQ

I don’t know if anyone posted this. He says we know God exists because of suffering. If there was no God we wouldn’t be so bothered when someone suffers, we would just say, well that’s life for you.

 

[Amandil]

Let’s take a look at what you wrote:

The implication is that I am an atheist and a fundamentalist.

As with Scripture you apparently read into it whatever you please.

Tomdstone:

Please explain how calling someone an atheist and a fundamentalist answers the question as to whether or not, according to Holy Scripture, God commanded that children be killed.

It has to do with the fallacious way you approach and use Scripture: you mimic fundamentalists in that you, like them, rip the Bible out of context as a pretext for your preconceived beliefs and ideas.

That you even ask the question “why is context important” shows a remarkable lack of any real concern for textual criticism.

 

[Amandil]

You are slandering me here and falsely accusing me of something I never claimed.

Given you’re not even using the term “slander” correctly in a vain attempt to make yourself a “victim” only further shows that at best you’re a sophist.

Have a nice day.

 

[oldcelt]

God had His reasons, read Job. And read the results.

You mean that Satan was satisfied that God could allow all types of evil to befall Job and Job would not curse God? Doesn’t seem like much of a gain to me…using one of your best as a guinea pig to prove something to your greatest enemy.

 

[Tomdstone]

As with Scripture you apparently read into it whatever you please.

It has to do with the fallacious way you approach and use Scripture: you mimic fundamentalists in that you, like them, rip the Bible out of context as a pretext for your preconceived beliefs and ideas.

That you even ask the question “why is context important” shows a remarkable lack of any real concern for textual criticism.

Ad hominem. No answer to post 764.

 

[Tomdstone]

Given you’re not even using the term “slander” correctly in a vain attempt to make yourself a “victim” only further shows that at best you’re a sophist.

Have a nice day.

Ad hominem. No answer to post 764.

 

[Tomdstone]

Take it as a compliment. When people begin attacking you it is because they are aware that their argument holds no water. That the Abrahamic/Christian God ordered the killing of children is an easy proof, taken from the very sources that promote that God.

I believe that according to the story related in Exodus 12:29, God did kill the Egyptian firstborn. It is a well know description of the tenth plague intended to release the Jews in Egypt and allow them to go to Palestine. The response to this was that I was reading into Scripture, that I was ripping the Bible out of context as a pretext for my supposed preconceived beliefs and ideas, that I show a remarkable lack of any real concern for textual criticism, and that I am at best a sophist. I don’t see how these uncharitable personal ad hominem remarks are in any way a response to the story of tenth plague as reported in Scripture. This story is one of the best known Bible stories that every pupil of Bible study will recognise.

 

[tonyrey]

… Tonyrey says that these passages should not be taken literally. That of course is one explanation. However, it presents problems since it raises the question as to how much of Holy Scripture should be taken figuratively and not literally…

There is no problem when a Biblical text is interpreted in the light of the teaching of Jesus that God is a loving Father who cares for all His children.