How could a moral God allow suffering?

[oldcelt]

I’m trying to figure this out.

Your god is not a bully. Your god is just indifferent to the fate of mankind.

Well, you could pray to a bully god who might, like the 19th century slave owner, relent. But praying to an indifferent god would be useless, right? Because your god neither knows nor cares about whether you die in a plague or anywhere else.

So when you are beneath the next avalanche, don’t cry out “Oh, my God!” because your god won’t hear you, not being interested the least in your fate.

Whereas the God who died for us on a tree must be the worst bully ever?

I’m still not getting it.

My God is a creator, and I would not expect Him, or any other god to hear my cries for help. In all my time spent with your God, I never received a positive reply to even the most selfless requests. I sincerely doubt that any but the self-delusional have.

I’m on my own with my fellow humans, and we must do the best we can with what we have. So far as an afterlife…there either is one, or there isn’t.

 

[tonyrey]

My God is a creator, and I would not expect Him, or any other god to hear my cries for help.

A creator who, in yout opinion, has left no traces whatsoever of its existence apart from a purposeless universe.

In all my time spent with your God, I never received a positive reply to even the most selfless requests.

What type of reply do you expect?

 

[tonyrey]

… Could there be some hidden contradiction to having God constantly interfering in the real world which we experience and having Him prevent all pain and suffering?

Precisely! If God constantly intervened it would be obvious that a benevolent power is at work and everyone would be compelled to believe, in Hamlet’s words, there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in their philosophy. In addition there would be so many exceptions to the laws of nature it would be impossible to predict what is going to happen next.

 

[Doug_Kraeger]

Children get cancer, "innocent " people are murdered, there are all types of examples of moral evils we can clearly see. Where is God, you ask. Why does He not do something? He is doing something, right in us. He is revealing evil, the absence of Grace. He is revealing to us that we know “this should not be”. This is not “right”. But, there is the problem. For there to be an objective “right” or “wrong, evil”, there must be an objective, absolute, moral order and therefore there must be a God, Creator of all space and time. If there is no God, there can be no cause of the absolute, objective, moral order; everything would be meaningless and relative.
This God must be the infinite perfection of every good virtue we can see and know. Therefore He must be the infinite perfection of the good virtue demonstrated by a good father who wants to share with his children and others, the good things he has found . Therefore God wants to share with us, HIMSELF, infinite Goodness. He created us with free will because He is Good and He wants us to choose to be good by His grace and He shows us what happens when we choose evil. We bring misfortune on us and others. We can focus on the misfortunes we see, the evils, or we can focus on the end where God will be all in all, everything to everyone (CCC 130, 1 Cor. 15:28). When “partial knowledge ceases” (CCC 314), we will know how God brought about the best history possible without violating anyone’s free will.

We can focus on the evils we see, or we can focus on what we would have already received from God’s Justice if it were not for God’s mercy, hell fore ever and ever and ever… because of one sin. Because of one sin, we cannot deserve heaven, yet, because of the mercy of God we still have a chance for heaven.

We can focus on the evil of a child’s cancer or the “undeserved sufferings” of someone else, or we can focus on the possibility that that person is in heaven, counting their sufferings in this world as nothing, because by God;'s mercy and goodness, they are in heaven forever, and ever and ever.

What should we focus on? That we know there are objective “right actions” and “evil actions” and we should choose the right ones and throw ourselves on His Mercy and ask for mercy for everyone else? Or we can be small minded and say, " because I do not see how God can bring good in the next life from all of this suffering in this life, and I am only concerned with this life, I will therefore rebel further against God".

 

[Charlemagne_III]

What should we focus on? That we know there are objective “right actions” and “evil actions” and we should choose the right ones and throw ourselves on His Mercy and ask for mercy for everyone else? Or we can be small minded and say, " because I do not see how God can bring good in the next life from all of this suffering in this life, and I am only concerned with this life, I will therefore rebel further against God".

This is certainly what some people do. They don’t get their way with God, so God must not exist.

Or if there is a God, he is not a person, just an unconscious creative Force that, without intelligence, created the laws of the universe that we find to be intelligible.

I still don’t get why this conclusion necessarily follows. Does the Deist have a private revelation that God is not a person, or does he just, by his own disappointments in life, demote God from Personhood to Force?

As Bishop Sheen put it: All prayers are answered by yes, no, or wait.

If you are waiting for selfless ends to be produced by your prayers, and get no yes, it may be the selfless ends are really in the end more selfish than selfless? Otherwise, why the huge disappointment and desire to get back at God by demoting him from a Person to an unconscious Force?

 

[ajecphotos]

Suffering i think, is probably the only way to God. One has to carry whatever cross for the love of God.

 

[oldcelt]

A creator who, in yout opinion, has left no traces whatsoever of its existence apart from a purposeless universe.

What type of reply do you expect?

The universe isn’t enough? And no deity has left any traces other than that. Man made edifices and typed manuals are just that. People may convince themselves that they have some special knowledge of the deity, but it is Highly unlikely that they truly do.

 

[oldcelt]

Children get cancer, "innocent " people are murdered, there are all types of examples of moral evils we can clearly see. Where is God, you ask. Why does He not do something? He is doing something, right in us. He is revealing evil, the absence of Grace. He is revealing to us that we know “this should not be”. This is not “right”. But, there is the problem. For there to be an objective “right” or “wrong, evil”, there must be an objective, absolute, moral order and therefore there must be a God, Creator of all space and time. If there is no God, there can be no cause of the absolute, objective, moral order; everything would be meaningless and relative.
This God must be the infinite perfection of every good virtue we can see and know. Therefore He must be the infinite perfection of the good virtue demonstrated by a good father who wants to share with his children and others, the good things he has found . Therefore God wants to share with us, HIMSELF, infinite Goodness. He created us with free will because He is Good and He wants us to choose to be good by His grace and He shows us what happens when we choose evil. We bring misfortune on us and others. We can focus on the misfortunes we see, the evils, or we can focus on the end where God will be all in all, everything to everyone (CCC 130, 1 Cor. 15:28). When “partial knowledge ceases” (CCC 314), we will know how God brought about the best history possible without violating anyone’s free will.

We can focus on the evils we see, or we can focus on what we would have already received from God’s Justice if it were not for God’s mercy, hell fore ever and ever and ever… because of one sin. Because of one sin, we cannot deserve heaven, yet, because of the mercy of God we still have a chance for heaven.

We can focus on the evil of a child’s cancer or the “undeserved sufferings” of someone else, or we can focus on the possibility that that person is in heaven, counting their sufferings in this world as nothing, because by God;'s mercy and goodness, they are in heaven forever, and ever and ever.

What should we focus on? That we know there are objective “right actions” and “evil actions” and we should choose the right ones and throw ourselves on His Mercy and ask for mercy for everyone else? Or we can be small minded and say, " because I do not see how God can bring good in the next life from all of this suffering in this life, and I am only concerned with this life, I will therefore rebel further against God".

You can hope that your beliefs are true, but the evidence isn’t there. And if your God is using children to make a point then He is evil and I have chosen not to accept that God can be that evil and heartless.
Deists have a much more positive view of the Creator, because He does not bring death and suffering like some classroom lesson. He does not want or expect our worship, which is the ultimate in narcissism. Whether or not He has prepared an afterlife is unknown and irrelevant because He has given us true free will to make this planet what we wish it to be. No plan…no predestination…true freedom.

 

[oldcelt]

This is certainly what some people do. They don’t get their way with God, so God must not exist.

Or if there is a God, he is not a person, just an unconscious creative Force that, without intelligence, created the laws of the universe that we find to be intelligible.

I still don’t get why this conclusion necessarily follows. Does the Deist have a private revelation that God is not a person, or does he just, by his own disappointments in life, demote God from Personhood to Force?

As Bishop Sheen put it: All prayers are answered by yes, no, or wait.

If you are waiting for selfless ends to be produced by your prayers, and get no yes, it may be the selfless ends are really in the end more selfish than selfless? Otherwise, why the huge disappointment and desire to get back at God by demoting him from a Person to an unconscious Force?

Deists do not demote God. We are just realistic about His likely forms. I don’t recall ever being taught that God was a person during all my hours in CCD, but a loving force that was, in the final analysis, beyond our understanding.
So far as prayers, Deists do not believe in any prayers other than those of thanks. Why? Because we have never seen any evidence that petitioning God has any success…ever.

For the rest…see the above response.

 

[tonyrey]

A creator who, in your opinion, has left no traces whatsoever of its existence apart from a purposeless universe.

It is a purposeful universe because it is a basis for life and rational existence. And purpose does not emerge by chance…

People may convince themselves that they have some special knowledge of the deity, but it is Highly unlikely that they truly do.

But you claim to have special knowledge of the deity as a Creator who ignores His creatures. It would be more logical for you to be an agnostic rather than a deist with a diluted God.

What type of reply do you expect?

No response from you because you have no reason not to expect a response from the Deity!

 

[oldcelt]

It is a purposeful universe because it is a basis for life and rational existence. And purpose does not emerge by chance…

But you claim to have special knowledge of the deity as a Creator who ignores His creatures. It would be more logical for you to be an agnostic rather than a deist with a diluted God.

No response from you because you have no reason not to expect a response from the Deity!

The only major difference between you God and my God is the interaction question. Look at all the other basic ideas and you have very little variance. Deists just don’t believe, through observation and history, that God does not intervene with His creation.
I can live with that…even find it comforting. You can’t…and find the idea disturbing. I think we are at a loggerhead.

 

[Richca]

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyrey
Our Father is not guilty of infanticide:

How do you explain the tenth plague as related in Exodus?

The responsibility of the death of the first born in Egypt falls squarely on the shoulders of the Pharoah. This is not that difficult to ascertain.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

The universe isn’t enough? And no deity has left any traces other than that. Man made edifices and typed manuals are just that. People may convince themselves that they have some special knowledge of the deity, but it is Highly unlikely that they truly do.

So how do you get your special knowledge of the Deity?

Was it revealed to you? Or did you just think it up?

 

[Buck_Crosswhite]

This is a classic theological question, one that I have never had properly answered, I’m sure it’s been asked before but I’ll try to add my own spin to it, let’s get started!
This question tends to go along the lines of
" Look at all the grief and misery in the world! How could God allow all this suffering, how could he allow rape and murder?!?"
Which usually receives the following answer, “Well you see, suffering exists because God allows humanity to have free will, if there is no suffering, then there is no free will, we would be mindless robots!”

However I have some problems with that answer which I will summarize into two main critiques.

One, this doesn’t explain gratuitous suffering or suffering without cause.

For example some babies are born with cancer or other serious diseases through absolutely no fault of their own or anyone else’s. So would God be interfering with free will if he cured the babies of their disease? Or what about victims of hurricanes or tsunamis or other naturally occurring tragedies? What do unfortunate random circumstances have to do with free will? Why couldn’t God save these people?

Two, free will is overrated

Let’s say a woman is about to be raped, God has the power to stop it, but chooses not to because the rapist has free will. I can understand this point of view as free will is very valuable and is one of the characteristics of being human. But what about the free will of the woman? She obviously doesn’t want to get raped, so if God doesn’t interfere, someone’s free will is going to get violated anyway, so why not interfere on the side of the woman? This sort of makes me think that God is choosing the free will of a rapist over the well-being of an innocent woman, in what way could that possibly be moral?

Also it could be argued this opens up a paradox.
God is all-powerful He is also completely and utterly kind.
Yet there is suffering.
So God is not all-powerful,
Conclusion there is no God
Or
God is not all kind
Conclusion God is evil

I am very interested to see your responses!

Why does God allow suffering?
Some people decide to stop believing in God because of their suffering and the suffering of many people. They say “If God was just he wouldn’t allow all this.”
God doesn’t allow suffering it was brought on by the disobedience of Adam. When Jesus was in the desert praying and fasting the devil came to him and (Matthew [8]) Again the devil took him up into a very high mountain, and shewed him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them, [9] And said to him: All these will I give thee, if falling down thou wilt adore me.
Do we think the devil was joking? Was he lying? No he wasn’t. The world belongs to the devil and he causes the suffering. The Catholic Church teaches us to pray and ask God to give us the grace to endure. God is not our nanny.

 

[hu324b]

If this is the only life we see then that question could be asked - this is not the eternal life yet we want to cling on to it desperately and want it to be the eternal life no mater how bad it is.The life we seek is the eternal life which cannot be found here and is yet to come where all these burdens and the suffering will no longer be - it plainly written right in the bible.

We learn through suffering and hardship in this life - its our moments to grow spiritually.Without those moments we would not grow in spirit. The saints are an example who gave up their lives completely to serving God instead of desperately trying to hang on to their mortal lives. They faced death torture and suffering without ever turning away from it with their eyes focused on as Saint Paul says winning the race.Through their suffering they became Saints.

 

[oldcelt]

So how do you get your special knowledge of the Deity?

Was it revealed to you? Or did you just think it up?

I have no special knowledge, just beliefs about the nature of God, and all those are up for logical discussion. Deists believe in a non-interventionist God through observation and history (I wonder how many times I have typed that.) Many things are and will remain unknown unless we are able to observe God.

We reject all revelation because the sources are generally unknown, often conflicting and cannot be tested.

 

[oldcelt]

Why does God allow suffering?
Some people decide to stop believing in God because of their suffering and the suffering of many people. They say “If God was just he wouldn’t allow all this.”
God doesn’t allow suffering it was brought on by the disobedience of Adam. When Jesus was in the desert praying and fasting the devil came to him and (Matthew [8]) Again the devil took him up into a very high mountain, and shewed him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them, [9] And said to him: All these will I give thee, if falling down thou wilt adore me.
Do we think the devil was joking? Was he lying? No he wasn’t. The world belongs to the devil and he causes the suffering. The Catholic Church teaches us to pray and ask God to give us the grace to endure. God is not our nanny.

So, the Abrahamic/Christian God hold sins against all of us that were committed 5,000 years ago by people we never knew. That’s a good start…you are down one before you take your first breath. Then you attribute suffering to that same sin.

Though I agree that mankind causes a lot of its own suffering…natural aging and illness probably cause much more.

Now, on to the devil. Your God created him, let him escape, etc., etc., so He shoulders a good deal of the responsibility for any satanic suffering in this world.

 

[oldcelt]

If this is the only life we see then that question could be asked - this is not the eternal life yet we want to cling on to it desperately and want it to be the eternal life no mater how bad it is.The life we seek is the eternal life which cannot be found here and is yet to come where all these burdens and the suffering will no longer be - it plainly written right in the bible.

We learn through suffering and hardship in this life - its our moments to grow spiritually.Without those moments we would not grow in spirit. The saints are an example who gave up their lives completely to serving God instead of desperately trying to hang on to their mortal lives. They faced death torture and suffering without ever turning away from it with their eyes focused on as Saint Paul says winning the race.Through their suffering they became Saints.

Christianity is obsessed with suffering and sex, and it shows from the very start.

 

[Buck_Crosswhite]

So, the Abrahamic/Christian God hold sins against all of us that were committed 5,000 years ago by people we never knew. That’s a good start…you are down one before you take your first breath. Then you attribute suffering to that same sin.

Though I agree that mankind causes a lot of its own suffering…natural aging and illness probably cause much more.

Now, on to the devil. Your God created him, let him escape, etc., etc., so He shoulders a good deal of the responsibility for any satanic suffering in this world.

God didn’t let Satan escape. Satan is God’s slave because he committed the sin of pride.
We are baptized because of Original Sin. If Adam and Eve hadn’t committed Original Sin this world would be different. Now we look forward to the perfect world with God in Eternity.

 

[tonyrey]

Christianity is obsessed with suffering and sex, and it shows from the very start.

The founder of Christianity was Jesus whose paramount concern was unselfish love which overcomes suffering, puts sex in its proper context, inspires us with hope and fills us with joy:

Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted.
Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst after righteousness,
for they will be filled.
Blessed are the merciful, for they shall be shown mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called the sons of God.
Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Matthew 5:3-12

Nothing could be further from the nihilism and negativity of deism which leaves one desolate, inconsolate and isolated.