How could a moral God allow suffering?

[Doug_Kraeger]

How do you know this?
In any case, I don’t see where it could be true for a child in Gaza injured by an Israeli bomb and facing a life of horrific suffering.

I, like everyone else sees all sorts of suffering in the the world. I, for one, am thankful that because of God’s mercy and goodness I have not received from God what I really, and eternally, deserve, hell and damnation for ever and ever and ever for my past sins, and that I still have hope (because of God’s mercy and goodness) to get to heaven. If our faith is correct, that there is a heaven and we have a chance to get there because of God’s mercy and goodness, then all the suffering of this world will be seen as no great thing, other than a chance (often neglected) to conform ourselves more perfectly to Jesus Christ and to imitate Him. St. Paul writes in Colossians 1:24, " Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church,". I admit a Jewish child maimed by a bomb may not be able to understand “offering up” their pain with and in and through Jesus’s suffering and death, but they can understand that God is so infinitely good and merciful that He can give us such great happiness in heaven that we will consider the sufferings in this world as nothing.
Everyone hates to see children suffer, this suffering should not be, and therefore everyone believes such suffering should not be and this absolute, objective moral law (that everyone knows) is a proof that an All-powerful Creator established and revealed His absolute, objective moral Law. How can there be an absolute, objective moral law if there is no reason for creation in the first place?

 

[tonyrey]

Yet you reject the Christian God because of all the suffering in the world… How does that inspire confidence?

You have missed the point, John. You believe “**He is aware **that his creation is capable of tending to itself” yet the immense suffering in the world demonstrates that is not the case. The deist God must be guilty of diabolical cruelty because He **never **intervenes to prevent suffering. There is no possible excuse or defence for such passivity of the part of the Creator of the entire universe. It cannot be due to lack of knowledge or power and He alone is directly responsible everything that happens…

 

[tonyrey]

How do you know this?
In any case, I don’t see where it could be true for a child in Gaza injured by an Israeli bomb and facing a life of horrific suffering.

You have overlooked the word “generally”. In an immensely complex world inhabited by human beings it is unreasonable to expect everything to go exactly according to plan. In addition to human malice and ignorance there is an inevitable element of Chance within the framework of Design.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

How do you know this?
In any case, I don’t see where it could be true for a child in Gaza injured by an Israeli bomb and facing a life of horrific suffering.

Jesus likely suffered more on the cross than anyone who ever lived.

His suffering was therapeutic for all of us.

All suffering can be overcome by the grace of God. Even the child who faces a life of horrific suffering can be heroic and a model of heroism for others.

 

[Aloysium]

I thought a post from another thread fits well here; the link especially:

**cfauster **
Adam & Logic, 2nd Edition

. . . God could do and can do whatever he wishes, we know he knew all that was to happen but still went ahead with his creation, so that leads me to think we are what we are regardless of O.S. Can I ask why you are asking this?
This raises the question of God’s foreknowledge of, in this case, just how badly humans would sin.

Pope Francis quoted from Genesis at a Holocaust memorial earlier this year. It seems that, like the mystery of how original sin is transmitted, it’s also a mystery as to whether God knew exactly how bad Adam’s descendants would sin:

news.va/en/news/pope-fran…aust-at-yad-va

 

[oldcelt]

Physicians cause human suffering when they perform open-heart surgery.

Believe me, I ought to know.

The causing of suffering is not intrinsically evil. Indeed, it can be positively therapeutic.

People who are sent to prison suffer. But they are there for a reason. Soldiers kill each other in horrible ways, yet generally for a reason. They do not usually kill with indifference. Some struggle mightily with their conscience to find justice in the killing.

God’s reasons for causing suffering are generally therapeutic. That is, they are designed to serve a higher purpose.

But since the deist God does not get involved with his creation, the suffering caused on earth by his indifference cannot be said to be therapeutic. It is caused by indifference. For the deist the plagues of Egypt were a natural, not a supernatural, event. They were not even designed by nature to pressure the Pharoah into freeing the Jews.

Indifference to suffering is the unkindest cruelty of all. The deist God is cruel beyond reckoning.

You and others here forget that my God did not directly create us. He created the world that allowed us to evolve, but we are here because of the actions of our parents back through the ages. No divine plan. Humanity has managed, all natural and man-made suffering considered, to flourish as a species. Why would God find it necessary to intervene in a situation that He did not cause?
If, as the Christian God is reputed, a deity creates and has a plan for that creation, the degree of responsibility is vastly different.

 

[hu324b]

We also bring God down to our level thinking his though are like our thought - his way are like are ways.Nope.Who can decern God - are you going to do with your own logic.Are you sure its not flawed.

We come to know the Father through Jesus - its the only way - they are one.
Jesus cried at the suffering of others.

We don’t like suffering obviously - but do we know the reason or purpose - can we come to a conclusion by our own logic - and all most all of it is brought on by our own actions not always individually but as human being and we do have the power to change that but instead ignore it and worry more about our big pile of material wealth or gaining wealth in our greed.
All other suffering being a mystery. It can’t be explained by human beings. We just do not and never will have that knowledge in our mortal lives.

 

[Aloysium]

I thought a post from another thread fits well here; the link especially:

The link didn’t seem to work - try again:

news.va/en/news/pope-francis-honors-victims-of-holocaust-at-yad-va

 

[Doug_Kraeger]

That Pope Francis said the following seems verified, but sad because it appears to broach as possible that God is not all-knowing.
“In this place, this memorial of the Shoah, we hear God’s question echo once more:
“Adam, where are you?”
This question is charged with all the sorrow of a Father who has lost his child.
The Father knew the risk of freedom; he knew that his children could be lost…
yet perhaps not even the Father could imagine so great a fall, so profound an abyss!
Here, before the boundless tragedy of the Holocaust,
That cry – “Where are you?” – echoes like a faint voice in an unfathomable abyss…
Adam, who are you? I no longer recognize you.
Who are you, o man? What have you become? “

I see this as a prime example of the Holy Father making a statement that could be construed to imply that God is not infinitely All-Knowing, seeing all space and time all at once in only one, single, eternal, infinite, always in the present tense thought, WORD. Perhaps He did it to assist people to consider whether or not God, being the Creator of all space and time, could be God and not know exactly how His plan would be accomplished? Sort of a backhanded way to broach the topic. I do not know. I hope He had a good reason for it, but I really cannot think of one.

Obviously, Catholic teaching is that God has eternally known exactly how low man would sink into moral degeneration as we move further and further from God and His grace.

Obviously God has a plan that will show His infinite goodness and infinite power to reconcile all things in Christ despite how low man goes. I, for one, can imagine that God is infinitely all-powerful enough to turn the whole world right side up by peaceful means. Will anyone say that God cannot do this by peaceful means because He is not that powerful?

Perhaps God’s plan is for the laity, of every faith, to expect from their ministers a list of questions, with related verifiable evidence, that the ministers believe God wants to give His answers to so as to lead all people to the one faith God wants all to know and believe. Can you imagine any minister of any faith responding to such a public effort by saying publicly, “I do not believe God is powerful enough to lead people to the one faith God must want all to know and believe by any series of questions with verifiable evidence. God wants people to believe my faith is the one faith God wants all to have just because I believe it”?

If I can imagine a God so powerful as to be able to do this, could He have a more peaceful way, am I correct, or have I somehow imagined a greater, more peaceful way, than God could imagine? What do you think?

 

[Charlemagne_III]

No divine plan. Humanity has managed, all natural and man-made suffering considered, to flourish as a species. Why would God find it necessary to intervene in a situation that He did not cause?

Why create a universe with no plan? Does any human create something with a plan for it?

So are you saying humans are superior to your god because they can plan but your God cannot plan?

And how do you know your god cannot plan? How was this revealed to you?

Certainly not by your God, who takes no interest in you whatever.

 

[Tomdstone]

Why create a universe with no plan? Does any human create something with a plan for it?

So are you saying humans are superior to your god because they can plan but your God cannot plan?

And how do you know your god cannot plan? How was this revealed to you?

Certainly not by your God, who takes no interest in you whatever.

Could it be that God does take an interest, but there are some limitations on His power?

 

[Doug_Kraeger]

Indifferent is your term, but the reason for creation is quite simple…It is in God’s nature to create. All one need do is look around to see that. No revelation required.

Back at post 900, you said, “God establishes nothing in Deism. Humans are very capable of recognizing positive and negative acts and formulating their own laws. Some of the most famous people in the early US ( Founding Fathers) were Deists and they managed to come up with a workable system.” Apparently, you were responding to my question in post 896, “Does your God establish an objective, absolute moral order and reveal any of it to men and women and hold us accountable to Him if we knowingly and deliberately violate one of His moral commandments, or is anything licit if you can get away with it?”
I could surmise that your answer implicitly was an admission that anything is licit if you can get away with it, but that would only be my surmise, my guessing at a conclusion that you did not state explicitly.
Is that your basic answer, that God does not really care if anyone kills a million people, or one, just to have more power for a short time?
If this is not your basic faith, please say that God does care and will hold people culpable to Him if we knowingly and deliberately violate one of His moral commandments.
Also, please explain something else. You said, “Humans are very capable of recognizing positive and negative acts and formulating their own laws.” Of these positive and negative acts: Who determines these as being positive or negative if not God? If men, are you saying that everything is subjective, whatever men decide is it, there are no absolutes from God, anything goes if enough men agree? Thank you

 

[tonyrey]

You and others here forget that my God did not directly create us. He created the world that allowed us to evolve, but we are here because of the actions of our parents back through the ages. No divine plan. Humanity has managed, all natural and man-made suffering considered, to flourish as a species. Why would God find it necessary to intervene in a situation that He did not cause?
If, as the Christian God is reputed, a deity creates and has a plan for that creation, the degree of responsibility is vastly different.

If God created everything without a plan He didn’t know or care what He was doing! Either way He isn’t fit to be - or capable of being - the Creator. And He is certainly not moral. So deism isn’t a satisfactory answer to the OP.

 

[tonyrey]

Could it be that God does take an interest, but there are some limitations on His power?

It is more reasonable to believe God is consistent. The truth lies between two extremes. Constant intervention would defeat the purpose of creating independent individuals in an orderly universe. Total non-intervention would amount to lack of love and compassion.

 

[oldcelt]

Back at post 900, you said, “God establishes nothing in Deism. Humans are very capable of recognizing positive and negative acts and formulating their own laws. Some of the most famous people in the early US ( Founding Fathers) were Deists and they managed to come up with a workable system.” Apparently, you were responding to my question in post 896, “Does your God establish an objective, absolute moral order and reveal any of it to men and women and hold us accountable to Him if we knowingly and deliberately violate one of His moral commandments, or is anything licit if you can get away with it?”
I could surmise that your answer implicitly was an admission that anything is licit if you can get away with it, but that would only be my surmise, my guessing at a conclusion that you did not state explicitly.
Is that your basic answer, that God does not really care if anyone kills a million people, or one, just to have more power for a short time?
If this is not your basic faith, please say that God does care and will hold people culpable to Him if we knowingly and deliberately violate one of His moral commandments.
Also, please explain something else. You said, “Humans are very capable of recognizing positive and negative acts and formulating their own laws.” Of these positive and negative acts: Who determines these as being positive or negative if not God? If men, are you saying that everything is subjective, whatever men decide is it, there are no absolutes from God, anything goes if enough men agree? Thank you

Humans have created a system of laws that show what is licit and what is not, They vary by culture and that alone shows the lack of involvement by an all-powerful deity. We truly do not need God to govern the earth. We do the job imperfectly, to be sure, but we struggle along.
Yes, everything begins as subjective until an overwhelming consensus is reached. Then it becomes law or dogma…no God involved, no true absolutes. Actions in a well functioning society are taken for the common good. We hold these truths to be **self **evident…in other words…common sense.

 

[Tomdstone]

Actions in a well functioning society are taken for the common good.

Not always. Sometimes they are taken because of pressure from small, but influential, groups, such as the weapons industry or the military industrial complex. Although you could argue that in such cases the society is not well functioning.

 

[Achilles6129]

Could it be that God does take an interest, but there are some limitations on His power?

The only limitations on the power of an omnipotent being would be something that is logically impossible, like creating a square circle.

 

[Tomdstone]

The only limitations on the power of an omnipotent being would be something that is logically impossible, like creating a square circle.

That is one limitation on the power of God. Could there be something about intervention in the world to prevent all suffering that would involve some sort of a contradiction and therefore not be possible for some reason which is not apparent to us?
How do you know for sure that there can be no limitations whatsoever on the power of God?

 

[tonyrey]

That is one limitation on the power of God. Could there be something about intervention in the world to prevent all suffering that would involve some sort of a contradiction and therefore not be possible for some reason which is not apparent to us?
How do you know for sure that there can be no limitations whatsoever on the power of God?

The reason is apparent if God created us to choose what to believe and how to live. He would defeat that purpose if He intervened so frequently that it would be obvious that He exists. Constant intervention would constitute a contradiction of His original intention.

 

[tonyrey]

The only limitations on the power of an omnipotent being would be something that is logically impossible, like creating a square circle.

An omnipotent being is capable of power-sharing which entails self-imposed limitations.
“Thy Will be done” implies that it is not always implemented…