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tonyrey
Guest
In so-called democratic societies the common good is often ignored and neglected.
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In so-called democratic societies the common good is often ignored and neglected.
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tonyrey
Guest
Human laws are based on the principles of liberty, equality and fraternity which stem from the teaching of Jesus that **all of us **have a loving Father in heaven. If we were related solely by an accident of birth those principles would have no rational foundation: they would be merely human conventions that do not correspond to reality.
The gross injustice and immense amount of unnecessary suffering in the world demonstrate beyond all doubt that man is the greatest enemy of man.
A consensus of fallible** opinion **does not determine what is true, right and just.
If there are no true absolutes then criminals are fully entitled to their values and mode of life.
“well” and “good” beg the question if they are merely a matter of opinion.
Common sense is a notoriously inadequate basis for morality. To sacrifice one’s life for others is sheer lunacy from a worldly point of view…
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Charlemagne_III
Guest
There are no limits on god’s power that I can think of.
There are limits on his will that are not limits on our will.
We can will evil. God cannot will evil but God can will creatures who can will evil.
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Charlemagne_III
Guest
There are no limits on God’s power that I can think of.
There are limits on his will that are not limits on our will.
We can will evil. God cannot will evil but God can will creatures who can will evil.
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Richca
Guest
God can create a world free from all human suffering and He did when He created Adam and Eve. Indeed, if Adam and Eve as well as all their posterity had not sinned, there would be no human suffering in the world. However, since God created human beings with free will and the possibility of sinning or doing evil, then if human beings actually do sin or evil, then human suffering is inevitable whether this suffering is punishment inflicted by God for sinning such as dying, sickness or disease which we inherit from Adam and Eve or is caused by other human beings such as in wars or crimes such as murder, robbery, rape, etc.
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Achilles6129
Guest
No, not really. God could intervene to end Israelite suffering (see the Torah) without there being any contradiction in terms.
I said the only things God couldn’t do would be things that are logically impossible to do, and then gave an example.
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oldcelt
Guest
But he knew Adam and Eve would sin…so was it all a bait and switch? You have free will, just don’t use it in any way that I object to or I will bring the hand of punishment down on you. I’ll even blame you for sins you never committed and have some philosopher create a term for such injustice…original sin.
I’m among a growing number who no longer believe in that god, but still believe that there is a benevolent creator somewhere who allows us to act on our own, because he did not create us individually…only the physical universe.
True Free Will.
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Tomdstone
Guest
So the story of Adam and Eve must be taken literally? Is that the official Roman Catholic position?
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Amandil
Guest
The reality of sin
386 Sin is present in human history; any attempt to ignore it or to give this dark reality other names would be futile. To try to understand what sin is, one must first recognize the profound relation of man to God, for only in this relationship is the evil of sin unmasked in its true identity as humanity’s rejection of God and opposition to him, even as it continues to weigh heavy on human life and history.
387 Only the light of divine Revelation clarifies the reality of sin and particularly of the sin committed at mankind’s origins. Without the knowledge Revelation gives of God we cannot recognize sin clearly and are tempted to explain it as merely a developmental flaw, a psychological weakness, a mistake, or the necessary consequence of an inadequate social structure, etc. Only in the knowledge of God’s plan for man can we grasp that sin is an abuse of the freedom that God gives to created persons so that they are capable of loving him and loving one another.
Original sin - an essential truth of the faith
388 With the progress of Revelation, the reality of sin is also illuminated. Although to some extent the People of God in the Old Testament had tried to understand the pathos of the human condition in the light of the history of the fall narrated in Genesis, they could not grasp this story’s ultimate meaning, which is revealed only in the light of the death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ.261 We must know Christ as the source of grace in order to know Adam as the source of sin. The Spirit-Paraclete, sent by the risen Christ, came to “convict the world concerning sin”,262 by revealing him who is its Redeemer.
389 The doctrine of original sin is, so to speak, the “reverse side” of the Good News that Jesus is the Savior of all men, that all need salvation and that salvation is offered to all through Christ. The Church, which has the mind of Christ,263 knows very well that we cannot tamper with the revelation of original sin without undermining the mystery of Christ.
How to read the account of the fall
390 The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man. Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents.
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fred_conty
Guest
The meaning of the word “literal” usually when asked about means… was there a tree in the middle of the garden?, and was there a snake who spoke?, and so on. Literal as opposed to figurative truth.
Actually the answer is, a person may believe this, or may believe that these things represent truths being expressed in a figurative way. However the church has said that there were only two people who began the human race. And the church has said that the holiness and friendship which God gave to these two people was lost and since this was lost, the parents could not pass down this holiness and special friendship with God to the generations to come…expressed as Original sin.
For example the tree in the middle of the garden which held forbidden fruit, could be taken as some sort of test of right and wrong and not necessarily a tree as such. And this test of right and wrong could simply have been what we experience in our own lives.
In our lives we are necessarily faced almost everyday with a conscience decision to chose between right and wrong. It is just a part of our nature and way of life. For example, to sleep on employer’s time or to work. To tell a lie or speak the truth. To pay our bills or to wiggle out of them. These and other decisions we cannot avoid because we live in a world which makes decisions necessary.
So Adam and Eve made a serious decision which was intentionally wrong…thus the tree of knowledge of good and evil expresses the truth of a temptation in which they failed to make the right decision.
It would be a bit lengthy to explain all the firgurative types contained in this story in this post. But the literal truth is that two people sinned, and lost many of the blessings they had for living happily in this world, and lost the friendship of God for themselves and their children, lost heaven after finishing this world.
May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.
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Tomdstone
Guest
Is that an infallible doctrine of the Catholic Church or could it be changed in the future, such as for example, the teaching on limbo has changed or whether an unbaptised Jew can get into heaven has changed?
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oldcelt
Guest
Never was when I was a Catholic. What we have here is an interesting combination of fundamentalist converts and really strict cradle Catholics. To them, the bible is infallible, so long as you agree with their interpretation…though few have looked seriously into the history of that collection of documents.
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Richca
Guest
Yes, it is an infallible doctrine of the Catholic Church that all human beings are descended from the first couple of the human race, Adam and Eve. It is quite clear in the Bible which is the word of God and divine revelation, that the first human being was Adam, Eve was made from Adam, and the rest of the human race descended from them. This is also affirmed in the New Testament in the writings of St Paul. It is also clear from the Holy Scriptures that death and suffering came into the world because of the original sin of our first parents and the consequences of that first sin is passed on to all the descendents of Adam and Eve. It is quite clear from observation that all human beings born into this world are subject to dying. The Church teaches that original sin is an infallible truth revealed by God from divine revelation in the Holy Scriptures. One would have to change the very bible itself to propose a doctrine that Adam and Eve are not the first parents of the human race.
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Charlemagne_III
Guest
Theological speculations on limbo have modified over the centuries. I’m not aware that there ever was an official doctrine on limbo that was regarded as an infallible teaching of the Church, and that this infallible teaching was later proved to be erroneous.
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Tomdstone
Guest
Can you give a reference to support the fact that this is an infallible doctrine and can never be changed or interpreted figuratively?
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Charlemagne_III
Guest
Can you give a reference to support the fact that the existence of Adam and Eve and the original sin is not an infallible doctrine and that it can be changed or interpreted figuratively?
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Tomdstone
Guest
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Aloysium
Guest
LoL
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Charlemagne_III
Guest
I’m not sure what any of this has to do with the topic of this thread unless you are trying to get a discussion started on a banned topic … evolution.
In any case, The article you referenced refers to a Franciscan theologian who does not enjoy the charism of infallibility.
The Church has wisely accepted evolutionary theory, but has not approved any interpretation of it as a refutation of any Catholic doctrine, including the Creation of Adam and Eve. If you can point to a Pope, a Council, or a Catechism that refers to Adam and Eve as only figurative symbols who never really existed as two people who sinned against God, please do so.
And I am baffled by the notion that science can even begin to prove they did not exist.
Thanks.
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oldcelt
Guest
Post 944 by another Catholic seems to disagree with you. Could you gives us the exact infallible document that says that the first two humans were Adam and Eve and that their story is literal fact?
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