M
madera
Guest
I am using my tablet and it does not go past your quote so I replied ij the center of your post.
- Status
I am using my tablet and it does not go past your quote so I replied ij the center of your post.
O
oldcelt
Guest
It originated from the nature of humanity that developed through our evolution. Any healthy, normal human being reacts this way. It does not require a supernatural explanation.
My God is the First Cause, not the branch manager and the teaching of a human 2000 years ago is interesting, but not the final word. Observation tells me that the all-loving God does not exist.
O
oldcelt
Guest
It is human solidarity to punish all for the crimes of a few. No…original sin is a doctrine invented by a few of the early church fathers, nothing more. They then gathered their flock, an appropriate term, and convinced them that they are naturally perverse and in need of their new faith. This is no soccer match…this is life and death…literally.
My subjective view? Well then you explain the logic of creating this poor child. To suffer and die in only six weeks so that it can grant Him eternal worship and love?
Where did you come up with genetic fallacy in response to my statement of the facts of my, and many others, early training in faith. It was reality in my youth.
So your God creates out of sheer love, with total knowledge of what will happen and six weeks later the creation is dead? That doesn’t sound like love to me, that sounds like narcissism: extreme selfishness, with a grandiose view of one’s own talents and a craving for admiration, as characterizing a personality type.
I have a higher view of the creator. He began creation and allowed it to evolve as it will. If there is an afterlife that is a bonus. He does not need or desire our worship and grants us free will with no strings attached. Sounds pretty hopeful and realistic to me.
O
oldcelt
Guest
I think that I see the bible for what it is…a deeply flawed document assembled from a wide range of books by authors that we know next to nothing about. That public revelation that was rejected by his own people?
And I think they knew exactly what they were doing. The motive is just different from yours.
P
papajon
Guest
I’m just an aging cheesehead from Wisconisn, but I think people make this one waaaaaay more difficult than it needs to be. I think that without suffering, how would we know what good is? If we claim to be striving every day to be better folks and go from wherever we are in life to one step closer to God, then I say suffering exists to allow those who survive to bring out their best, to do something better, to move one step closer to God. Simple as that.
P
printmaker
Guest
I’ve been following this thread which I discovered far into its development, wondering if anyone would go back to Aquinas and find his answer to the problem of evil, and its solution. Within it, we find all of creation, and why it is the way it is.
The Problem of Evil/The Solution of Grace
The Five Ways
• St. Thomas Aquinas provides five proofs of the existence of God, constructed as a hierarchy of proofs that eventually ends with the realization that it is impossible for there to be no God.
• Within these five proofs is the reason why evil exists, not as something God desires, but because of a metaphysical impossibility that makes it possible to understand God’s creation. I am not going to list all of them, but focus on the one that explains the state of our world and our place in it.
Potency and Act
• First we must define the relationship between potency and act, which is a fundamental principle in Thomistic philosophy.
• All creatures are a mixture of potency, potential, and act, actuality or realization. • We are born with the potential to be adults. An embryo is in potency and all its potency to act exists within it from the moment it is conceived, which is why abortion is a grave, mortal sin.
• Only God is pure act, actuality, in which all things exist. Therefore, He does not change, or move, from potentiality to actuality.
*4. The Argument from Degree
The fourth proof arises from the degrees that are found in things. For there is found a greater and a less degree of goodness, truth, nobility, and the like. But more or less are terms spoken of various things as they approach in diverse ways toward something that is the greatest, just as in the case of hotter (more hot) that approaches nearer the greatest heat. There exists therefore something that is the truest, and best, and most noble, and in consequence, the greatest being. For what are the greatest truths are the greatest beings, as is said in the Metaphysics Bk. II.
2. What moreover is the greatest in its way, in another way is the cause of all things of its own kind (or genus); thus fire, which is the greatest heat, is the cause of all heat, as is said in the same book (cf. Plato and Aristotle). Therefore there exists something that is the cause of the existence of all things and of the goodness and of every perfection whatsoever—and this we call God.*
The Problem of Evil
Within the Fourth Way, we understand that there are degrees of perfection, some things being truer, nobler, better than other things, and therefore there must be something that is absolutely true, noble, and good that is the source of all that is good, noble, and true. This we call God.
Within this we find where evil arises. For God to have created something that was absolutely, in act, good, He would have been creating/cloning Himself. However, God is simple. He has no composite parts. He is all actuality, and cannot move from potential, which He has none, to act, which He has all. (The origin of his name I AM. He is being itself). To be composite is to be in potency, and God is all act.
Therefore, it is a metaphysical impossibility for God to create something that is good as its final cause, which is the purpose for which He created us, without that thing moving from potency to act. A created thing is never the equal to the thing that created it. We see that all things grow from immaturity to maturity. That which is not purely good in act is potentially good, and can be, but is not guaranteed this state without the cooperation with grace that is the mystery of faith, worked out in this life. As St. Thomas Aquinas writes: “Grace does not destroy nature but perfects it.” – Summa Theologica, Part 1, 1:8.
Since some choose to resist grace, they do not reach the potential to be good, and are thereby prey to evil. Evil is not a potency, but a lack of movement from potency to act. It is a stifling of one’s final cause, which is to be completely virtuous.
We are created with one goal in mind: to be good as God is good. This is true happiness, as God is in perpetual joy in the contemplation of His own Self. He created us so that we may share in this joy of contemplation. This all humans seem, intuitively, to know, but they must “move” from knowers to doers.
CONTINUED…
The Problem of Evil/The Solution of Grace
The Five Ways
• St. Thomas Aquinas provides five proofs of the existence of God, constructed as a hierarchy of proofs that eventually ends with the realization that it is impossible for there to be no God.
• Within these five proofs is the reason why evil exists, not as something God desires, but because of a metaphysical impossibility that makes it possible to understand God’s creation. I am not going to list all of them, but focus on the one that explains the state of our world and our place in it.
Potency and Act
• First we must define the relationship between potency and act, which is a fundamental principle in Thomistic philosophy.
• All creatures are a mixture of potency, potential, and act, actuality or realization. • We are born with the potential to be adults. An embryo is in potency and all its potency to act exists within it from the moment it is conceived, which is why abortion is a grave, mortal sin.
• Only God is pure act, actuality, in which all things exist. Therefore, He does not change, or move, from potentiality to actuality.
*4. The Argument from Degree
The fourth proof arises from the degrees that are found in things. For there is found a greater and a less degree of goodness, truth, nobility, and the like. But more or less are terms spoken of various things as they approach in diverse ways toward something that is the greatest, just as in the case of hotter (more hot) that approaches nearer the greatest heat. There exists therefore something that is the truest, and best, and most noble, and in consequence, the greatest being. For what are the greatest truths are the greatest beings, as is said in the Metaphysics Bk. II.
2. What moreover is the greatest in its way, in another way is the cause of all things of its own kind (or genus); thus fire, which is the greatest heat, is the cause of all heat, as is said in the same book (cf. Plato and Aristotle). Therefore there exists something that is the cause of the existence of all things and of the goodness and of every perfection whatsoever—and this we call God.*
The Problem of Evil
Within the Fourth Way, we understand that there are degrees of perfection, some things being truer, nobler, better than other things, and therefore there must be something that is absolutely true, noble, and good that is the source of all that is good, noble, and true. This we call God.
Within this we find where evil arises. For God to have created something that was absolutely, in act, good, He would have been creating/cloning Himself. However, God is simple. He has no composite parts. He is all actuality, and cannot move from potential, which He has none, to act, which He has all. (The origin of his name I AM. He is being itself). To be composite is to be in potency, and God is all act.
Therefore, it is a metaphysical impossibility for God to create something that is good as its final cause, which is the purpose for which He created us, without that thing moving from potency to act. A created thing is never the equal to the thing that created it. We see that all things grow from immaturity to maturity. That which is not purely good in act is potentially good, and can be, but is not guaranteed this state without the cooperation with grace that is the mystery of faith, worked out in this life. As St. Thomas Aquinas writes: “Grace does not destroy nature but perfects it.” – Summa Theologica, Part 1, 1:8.
Since some choose to resist grace, they do not reach the potential to be good, and are thereby prey to evil. Evil is not a potency, but a lack of movement from potency to act. It is a stifling of one’s final cause, which is to be completely virtuous.
We are created with one goal in mind: to be good as God is good. This is true happiness, as God is in perpetual joy in the contemplation of His own Self. He created us so that we may share in this joy of contemplation. This all humans seem, intuitively, to know, but they must “move” from knowers to doers.
CONTINUED…
P
printmaker
Guest
continued…
I have been teaching Aristotle’s Theory Of Happiness for 17 years, through St. Thomas Aquinas’ formulation of it, and no one has ever disagreed with its premise or its conclusion. This is amazing, for where do you find people agreeing on the manner in which they should conduct their lives? Yet it seems this is hardwired into human understanding. If you want to understand evil, then the tale of the schizophrenic student who heard my lecture bears telling. He listened and said he agreed with me, but he wasn’t going to do it. This is the face of evil. To know, but choose to follow another path. Of course, you must have the capacity to move from potency to act. Children are immature, and haven’t the capacity to make reasoned decisions until a certain age, and mentally-disabled people may not be able to choose to do good. There is great room here for God’s mercy. Maybe that is why we are told to refrain from judging.
In the Theory of Happiness, we are instructed to “share our virtue.” In practice, this means assisting one in potency to act from one’s own store of act. This is the role of the teacher, which is not simply the profession, but encompasses that of the parent also.
The greatest teacher is Christ Himself. Through His Life, Death, and Resurrection, He has shown us the path to full actuality of our Final End, to join God in His contemplation. Foretaste of this contemplation is found in the states of ecstasy found in the reports of such conditions by the saints, in which they are completely taken out of themselves and this “reality” to a “place” in which they are joined to God. They consistently report this condition as being engulfed in love and a joy that cannot be described. We should examine the lives of saints like St. Padre Pio and St. Teresa of Avila. They were living partly here, and partly in heaven. The interaction of the two is jolting, and in the case of Padre Pio, his identification with Christ caused him great misery and suffering. But it also gave great meaning to his life. It also tells us that the need for a Mediator is great, for the classical conception of God, which is the Church’s conception of God, is both so very different than us, and yet He is aware of our every moment, for He sustains our every moment. To be infinite being is to be completely other than us, and to be aware of everything that happens everywhere. If you understand essential order, you know that God is with us in everything that happens, even in our suffering. Within St. Thomas writings we see the Divine Mercy we know so well from this last century’s St. Faustina, expressed in the 13th century by the greatest intellectual that probably ever lived. So, from the most advanced thinker to the least, the message of mercy remains the same. We all have access to the pinnacle of the spiritual life, no matter what our station in this life is.
Examine act and potency. You’ll see a great strategy there in the development of all things from seed to maturity. Now think of doing this on a grand scale in the physical universe. I’m 61 and change, and I’ve noticed that the infirmities that have become part of my life are also grace getting me ready for union with God, for the things that I desired as a young man have no hold over me now. I did not get to this place without suffering, and I won’t bore you with the details, but it was not fun. But I started listening at the height of my suffering. I stopped thinking about this or that, and started to notice the thread of my life, and saw the potential there. At this age, I can see it more clearly as the hand of God fashioning me so I can share my virtue with those who need direction, mostly young people.
I have been teaching Aristotle’s Theory Of Happiness for 17 years, through St. Thomas Aquinas’ formulation of it, and no one has ever disagreed with its premise or its conclusion. This is amazing, for where do you find people agreeing on the manner in which they should conduct their lives? Yet it seems this is hardwired into human understanding. If you want to understand evil, then the tale of the schizophrenic student who heard my lecture bears telling. He listened and said he agreed with me, but he wasn’t going to do it. This is the face of evil. To know, but choose to follow another path. Of course, you must have the capacity to move from potency to act. Children are immature, and haven’t the capacity to make reasoned decisions until a certain age, and mentally-disabled people may not be able to choose to do good. There is great room here for God’s mercy. Maybe that is why we are told to refrain from judging.
In the Theory of Happiness, we are instructed to “share our virtue.” In practice, this means assisting one in potency to act from one’s own store of act. This is the role of the teacher, which is not simply the profession, but encompasses that of the parent also.
The greatest teacher is Christ Himself. Through His Life, Death, and Resurrection, He has shown us the path to full actuality of our Final End, to join God in His contemplation. Foretaste of this contemplation is found in the states of ecstasy found in the reports of such conditions by the saints, in which they are completely taken out of themselves and this “reality” to a “place” in which they are joined to God. They consistently report this condition as being engulfed in love and a joy that cannot be described. We should examine the lives of saints like St. Padre Pio and St. Teresa of Avila. They were living partly here, and partly in heaven. The interaction of the two is jolting, and in the case of Padre Pio, his identification with Christ caused him great misery and suffering. But it also gave great meaning to his life. It also tells us that the need for a Mediator is great, for the classical conception of God, which is the Church’s conception of God, is both so very different than us, and yet He is aware of our every moment, for He sustains our every moment. To be infinite being is to be completely other than us, and to be aware of everything that happens everywhere. If you understand essential order, you know that God is with us in everything that happens, even in our suffering. Within St. Thomas writings we see the Divine Mercy we know so well from this last century’s St. Faustina, expressed in the 13th century by the greatest intellectual that probably ever lived. So, from the most advanced thinker to the least, the message of mercy remains the same. We all have access to the pinnacle of the spiritual life, no matter what our station in this life is.
Examine act and potency. You’ll see a great strategy there in the development of all things from seed to maturity. Now think of doing this on a grand scale in the physical universe. I’m 61 and change, and I’ve noticed that the infirmities that have become part of my life are also grace getting me ready for union with God, for the things that I desired as a young man have no hold over me now. I did not get to this place without suffering, and I won’t bore you with the details, but it was not fun. But I started listening at the height of my suffering. I stopped thinking about this or that, and started to notice the thread of my life, and saw the potential there. At this age, I can see it more clearly as the hand of God fashioning me so I can share my virtue with those who need direction, mostly young people.
A
Amandil
Guest
It’s your crime as well, not just theirs.
You’re sorely begging the question here.
Love is the reason. Love, when it creates, is detached from the apparent consequences or supposed temporary suffering, and considers only the goodness of Being and looks forward to when those sufferings are to be corrected.
Given that you seem so detached from the notion of a loving God because you seem to lack any intuitive foresight aside from your immediate surroundings, it’s not surprising that you project a false image onto God.
You’re apparently confused as to what constitutes reality. When it comes to the difference between this plane of existence and being with God in heaven at the consummation of all things, this world is a pale shadow. Reality, life, Being, properly speaking, is directly relative to our proximity to God.
You are also deficient in the understanding of the human person. Worshipping and adoring God is not for His good but ours, “our hearts were made for You, and they are restless until they rest in you,” wrote St. Augustine.
You said:
Your assertion is apparently not based upon any reasoning but based upon your impression of those “adults” who taught it.
I have no knowledge of your apparent experience, but the conclusions you cite are irrelevant in regards to whether or not the doctrine of original sin is true.
And it would with someone who possesses such a myopic view as you apparently possess.
“Higher”, well his “nose” apparently is rather high I guess. Seems just rather more aloof, conceited and egocentric.
Aside from the already apparent contradictions necessarily assumed in such a thing(like how could it even “evolve” without his sustaining and interacting with it, since nothing can change itself according to Aquinas’ first Way), how exactly does this answer the problem?
From what I see it doesn’t answer the problem of suffering at all but institutionalizes it. It says that there is no answer to suffering, no redemptive power or value, that suffering is just a pointless exercise.
From there it follows that the “innocent child” then ought to be killed outright to spare it the suffering that you complain God allows.
A “bonus” but not the epitome of Being and existence? Thank the Lord I’m not merely a deist.
Well, the first part is partly true, He doesn’t need our worship in any strict sense, but rather instead we need to worship Him. Worshipping God is necessary for our good. Humans are religious beings, we were made to worship. Either we worship God in spirit and in truth, or we will by default worship something other than Him; nature, “forces”, “science”, or ourselves.
Free will with “no strings attached” is an absurd statement. If someone used “free will with no strings attached” to rob and kill your family, pardon me, but I have a real problem seeing how you’d be so indifferent in such a matter. I’m rather certain that in that moment you’d definitely want at least some “strings attached”.
In not, then your god is not even just, and therefore you have nothing to be hopeful about in regards to anything. That your deity has simply no regard for anything which he has made and all you have to look forward to in your existence, for all of your experiences, is to be worm food.
That’s not hopeful, that’s simply nihilistic and depressing. I hardly see any difference between your god and atheism.
T
tonyrey
Guest
O
oldcelt
Guest
Well, I think I am the one who is firmly rooted in reality. Obviously, you have OBJECTIVE proof for all you believe, or you would not be so offended by another believer. And I’m not talking about Aquinas, the bible or any of the other worn out sources…OBJECTIVE.
If not, then your belief carries not one iota more value than mine. It’s a draw.
P
printmaker
Guest
ACT AND POTENCY IN SCRIPTURE
Matthew 13 New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (NRSVCE)
The Parable of the Sower
13 That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat beside the sea. 2 Such great crowds gathered around him that he got into a boat and sat there, while the whole crowd stood on the beach. 3 And he told them many things in parables, saying: “Listen! A sower went out to sow. 4 And as he sowed, some seeds fell on the path, and the birds came and ate them up. 5 Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they did not have much soil, and they sprang up quickly, since they had no depth of soil. 6 But when the sun rose, they were scorched; and since they had no root, they withered away. 7 Other seeds fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked them. 8 Other seeds fell on good soil and brought forth grain, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. 9 Let anyone with ears[a] listen!”
The Purpose of the Parables
10 Then the disciples came and asked him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” 11 He answered, “To you it has been given to know the secrets** of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For to those who have, more will be given, and they will have an abundance; but from those who have nothing, even what they have will be taken away. 13 The reason I speak to them in parables is that ‘seeing they do not perceive, and hearing they do not listen, nor do they understand.’ 14 With them indeed is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah that says:
‘You will indeed listen, but never understand,
and you will indeed look, but never perceive.
15 For this people’s heart has grown dull,
and their ears are hard of hearing,
and they have shut their eyes;
so that they might not look with their eyes,
and listen with their ears,
and understand with their heart and turn—
and I would heal them.’
16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see, and your ears, for they hear. 17 Truly I tell you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, but did not see it, and to hear what you hear, but did not hear it.
The Parable of the Sower Explained
18 “Hear then the parable of the sower. 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what is sown in the heart; this is what was sown on the path. 20 As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet such a person has no root, but endures only for a while, and when trouble or persecution arises on account of the word, that person immediately falls away.[c] 22 As for what was sown among thorns, this is the one who hears the word, but the cares of the world and the lure of wealth choke the word, and it yields nothing. 23 But as for what was sown on good soil, this is the one who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty.”**
Matthew 13 New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (NRSVCE)
The Parable of the Sower
13 That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat beside the sea. 2 Such great crowds gathered around him that he got into a boat and sat there, while the whole crowd stood on the beach. 3 And he told them many things in parables, saying: “Listen! A sower went out to sow. 4 And as he sowed, some seeds fell on the path, and the birds came and ate them up. 5 Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they did not have much soil, and they sprang up quickly, since they had no depth of soil. 6 But when the sun rose, they were scorched; and since they had no root, they withered away. 7 Other seeds fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked them. 8 Other seeds fell on good soil and brought forth grain, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. 9 Let anyone with ears[a] listen!”
The Purpose of the Parables
10 Then the disciples came and asked him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” 11 He answered, “To you it has been given to know the secrets** of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For to those who have, more will be given, and they will have an abundance; but from those who have nothing, even what they have will be taken away. 13 The reason I speak to them in parables is that ‘seeing they do not perceive, and hearing they do not listen, nor do they understand.’ 14 With them indeed is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah that says:
‘You will indeed listen, but never understand,
and you will indeed look, but never perceive.
15 For this people’s heart has grown dull,
and their ears are hard of hearing,
and they have shut their eyes;
so that they might not look with their eyes,
and listen with their ears,
and understand with their heart and turn—
and I would heal them.’
16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see, and your ears, for they hear. 17 Truly I tell you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, but did not see it, and to hear what you hear, but did not hear it.
The Parable of the Sower Explained
18 “Hear then the parable of the sower. 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what is sown in the heart; this is what was sown on the path. 20 As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet such a person has no root, but endures only for a while, and when trouble or persecution arises on account of the word, that person immediately falls away.[c] 22 As for what was sown among thorns, this is the one who hears the word, but the cares of the world and the lure of wealth choke the word, and it yields nothing. 23 But as for what was sown on good soil, this is the one who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty.”**
O
oldcelt
Guest
Everybody is in attack mode. I’ll dig up the studies that man is an inherently moral creature. The bloodshed throughout history is an example that we are also highly territorial and pack animals.
BTW, there is not one jot of credible evidence for any god, including yours. All religions have holy books, early founders, philosophers, etc. Only one can be right, and all may be wrong.
A
ajecphotos
Guest
Evidence? The type you seek you mean?
A
Amandil
Guest
Circular reasoning.
Of objective proof there is plenty. But there is a huge difference between leading a horse to water and the horse actually taking a drink.
As I said. That’s hardly a rational and reasonable position to take, only to consider that which you find favorable or agreeable. The reasonable thing to do is to consider all proofs objectively on their own merits.
If you say so. Regardless, the problem remains. You cannot answer it, we can. You obviously don’t like the answer, but your subjective opinion is irrelevant to it’s merit.
O
oldcelt
Guest
No, the type that would actually prove something. When it comes to any belief in any deity of any type it is all based on faith.(large period) You will note that I said ALL, not some, not mine excepted.
O
oldcelt
Guest
You believe you have answered something, but that is all it is…belief…same as mine. BTW, for your assistance with a term you obviously don’t understand: Definition of objective evidence: Information based on facts that can be proved through analysis, measurement, observation, and other such means of research.
P
printmaker
Guest
I have to jump in here. What you are describing is a form of knowledge, but not knowledge itself. You are positing the scientific method as the only form of credible knowledge, but even a skeptic like Bertrand Russell said that the scientific method tells us nothing intrinsic about reality. That is because your description is an abstraction from nature in the third-person. The scientific method only tells us things that can be measured using mathematics as its rule. But most of reality, and our knowledge of it, falls outside math. You are positing scientism. It is a truncated version of Aristotle’s Four Causes. We see the effects of this truncation in the problem of repurposing. The scientific method was devised by Descartes as a means to bring nature under control in order to make life easier for humans. Subsequent to Descartes, the scientific method has told us much about the workings of cause and effect (Efficient and Material Causes in the Four Causes), but it ignores purpose, since its aim is to repurpose its findings.
So, by its very nature, the method you propose, divorced from its moorings, will never give us a full picture of reality. It can never give us first-person knowledge, which is really how knowledge is conveyed, and it is certainly how wisdom is conveyed.
I would challenge you to use your criteria to reproduce through the exact same method, the experiences of the saints. Try to measure their experience of God. If you were to observe an ecstatic experience, you would still have no real knowledge of it. If you measured the brainwaves of a saint, you would still be only recording it in the third person, and therefore have no actual knowledge of it at all.
If you want convincing evidence of God, imitate success. The saints are success stories. Imitate them in the first person. You have nothing to lose in falling in love with God. There is, however, nothing to be gained by relying on abstractions of experience. That is what “objective evidence” is. In this arena, it is not evidence at all.
O
oldcelt
Guest
So, since you cannot provide it, it is irrelevant? A very convenient out, don’t you think? It comes back to a point I have made so many times: That any belief in a deity must be based on faith. No religion or belief system can offer any substantive evidence for the existence of their god.
BTW, I thank God everyday for starting creation. I enjoy life greatly for the most part, and would not have had that opportunity had God not begun the process. Does He know me personally? I doubt it, but that is not necessary for me. I accept that my decisions are my own, and their consequences are also brought on by my actions.
P
printmaker
Guest
The evidence is there, but not under your rubric. I’ll repeat myself: your method, for this purpose, is flawed. It is third person. Third person evidence tells us nothing intrinsic to the matter. For example. E=MC2 tells us nothing in comparison to an atomic explosion. Scientism would seek reduce God to an abstraction that can then be examined at a *safe *distance. However, the safest distance to God is very close.
I
IM4God
Guest
Also it could be argued this opens up a paradox.
"God is all-powerful He is also completely and utterly kind.
Yet there is suffering.
So God is not all-powerful,
Conclusion there is no God
Or
God is not all kind
Conclusion God is evil "
As a mom, permit me to make a few changes:
“Mom is pretty powerful. She is utterly kind.
Yet she allows her children to suffer
So Mom is not pretty powerful
Conclusion there is no Mom
Or
Mom is not all kind
Conclusion Mom is evil .”
I love my children, and they love me. I will always be there to comfort them in their missteps, although I cannot protect from all suffering. As my children progress throughout life, much of their sufferings will be forgotten or eased over the passage of time.
Likewise, mankind sufferings are eased or forgotten through the passage of time. How many past wars, famines, diseases occurred in the past that we are completely unaware of?
Of course God will remember, and those who have suffered will be rewarded.
"God is all-powerful He is also completely and utterly kind.
Yet there is suffering.
So God is not all-powerful,
Conclusion there is no God
Or
God is not all kind
Conclusion God is evil "
As a mom, permit me to make a few changes:
“Mom is pretty powerful. She is utterly kind.
Yet she allows her children to suffer
So Mom is not pretty powerful
Conclusion there is no Mom
Or
Mom is not all kind
Conclusion Mom is evil .”
I love my children, and they love me. I will always be there to comfort them in their missteps, although I cannot protect from all suffering. As my children progress throughout life, much of their sufferings will be forgotten or eased over the passage of time.
Likewise, mankind sufferings are eased or forgotten through the passage of time. How many past wars, famines, diseases occurred in the past that we are completely unaware of?
Of course God will remember, and those who have suffered will be rewarded.
- Status