How could good God create creatures with evil and good being?

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Rape is morally wrong and morally evil. In your concern post that is evil. This does not mean that Human beings are born with evil as you said to rape. The correct term is original sin which is cleansed in baptism and life united with Jesus Christ. Where could an evil act like rape come from? It comes from an outside evil source namely Lucifer and deliberately chose out of free will. This is not what life meant to be. All humanity is called by God through Jesus Christ to do good.
I hope it becomes more clearer to your concern.
I know the story Lucifer, but what happened to him? My first question is, could he do good and evil? He was the highest rank angle in Heaven, what happened to him? How he could possibly do evil for no reason? You have to either accept that there was another devil who seduce him to do evil or accept that he was created with both good and evil.
 
We must remember Original Sin. “Behold, I was formed in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.”- Psalm 50

We enter the world in filth and blood, cry and wailing, against our will, conceived in an act of lust, which everyone would blush to do before others. We depart decrepit and forgotten, bowed with age, time and regret. Dust to dust, ashes to ashes. Concipit ergo cum inmunditia et fetore, parit cum tristitia et dolore, nutrit cum angustia et labore, custodit cum instantia et timore. Sicut est vita omnium hominum, usque fuga mortis…

We are all guilty when we are born, when we are conceived. That is why God sent His Son…
The concern of the post is something about human existence which is misunderstood by the concern post and I hope I have made it clear.
What you said here is a different issue which you can post in a new thread so I can discuss it with you.
 
I know the story Lucifer, but what happened to him? My first question is, could he do good and evil? He was the highest rank angle in Heaven, what happened to him? How he could possibly do evil for no reason? You have to either accept that there was another devil who seduce him to do evil or accept that he was created with both good and evil.
I think you are out of your own original argument . It would be better to make a new thread on this new issue.
 
My understanding is that children go to heaven when they die before the age of reason because they have no knowledge of sin - not because their hearts are pure. Think of a 2 y.o. and “Me! Mine!” and knocking their brother or sister up side the head with a toy in anger. They simply aren’t held accountable because their dendrites haven’t been properly pruned yet.

James 1:15 (KJV) - Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Psalm 51:5 (KJV) - Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Young’s Literal Translation - Lo, in iniquity I have been brought forth, And in sin doth my mother conceive me.

((This literal translation is spooky. Sounds like maybe I was ‘called forth’ by the archon (I was already a minion of his? - and then was conceived in sin on top of that! Double whammy. ))

I understand the desire to see babies as fully angelic but the Bible (nor my experience with them) supports the idea - at least not past the first few months.

The part that I contemplate occasionally is Christ saying that if anyone turns a child away from Him, it would be better for them to have a millstone around their neck, etc. It’s kinda like along with the imp, there is a ‘good angel’ also present that will gravitate natually to spiritual teachings.

Hmmmm. Perhaps you are correct in one sense, afterall. But it would have to be that the ‘imp spirit’ was ‘called forth in iniquity’ by the Archon who rules this world, then conceived in lust/sexual sin - but upon taking the first breath (cause we are lifeless once unplugged from the womb), we receive the ‘good angel/Breath of Life’ from the True God. And the spiritual battle is on. The Archon uses us to get his rascals onto the earth with a desire to extinguish all the ‘good angel’ Light?

Interesting theory…will have to think it through some more with, hopefully, more Clarity arriving.

This is not the original argument, but I am glad you mention a pit of it in mentioning original sin. If you want to discuss something different, post it in a new thread so I can discuss it with you.
 
I think you are out of your own original argument . It would be better to make a new thread on this new issue.
I think we are in the right track. We normally assign our evil act to Satan to purify ourselves from possession of evil. The first problem is how we could so surely assign our evil acts to Satan? Why not accept that it are ours? The second main problem is either of us, human or Satan, were created with evil which rises an issue in creation of God.
 
My understanding is that children go to heaven when they die before the age of reason because they have no knowledge of sin - not because their hearts are pure. Think of a 2 y.o. and “Me! Mine!” and knocking their brother or sister up side the head with a toy in anger. They simply aren’t held accountable because their dendrites haven’t been properly pruned yet.

James 1:15 (KJV) - Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Psalm 51:5 (KJV) - Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Young’s Literal Translation - Lo, in iniquity I have been brought forth, And in sin doth my mother conceive me.

((This literal translation is spooky. Sounds like maybe I was ‘called forth’ by the archon (I was already a minion of his? - and then was conceived in sin on top of that! Double whammy. ))

I understand the desire to see babies as fully angelic but the Bible (nor my experience with them) supports the idea - at least not past the first few months.

The part that I contemplate occasionally is Christ saying that if anyone turns a child away from Him, it would be better for them to have a millstone around their neck, etc. It’s kinda like along with the imp, there is a ‘good angel’ also present that will gravitate natually to spiritual teachings.

Hmmmm. Perhaps you are correct in one sense, afterall. But it would have to be that the ‘imp spirit’ was ‘called forth in iniquity’ by the Archon who rules this world, then conceived in lust/sexual sin - but upon taking the first breath (cause we are lifeless once unplugged from the womb), we receive the ‘good angel/Breath of Life’ from the True God. And the spiritual battle is on. The Archon uses us to get his rascals onto the earth with a desire to extinguish all the ‘good angel’ Light?

Interesting theory…will have to think it through some more with, hopefully, more Clarity arriving.

Maybe I shouldn’t get involved in this discussion this late in the game, but I wanted to just say that a newborn child is not the slightest bit lifeless when it is delivered from it’s mother’s womb and until it takes its first breath. I’ve seen many babies only delivered to the shoulders wrinkle their little faces and open and shut their eyes. Also, if you have ever seen a water birth, the baby will swim around until you bring it to the surface–also before taking its first breath.

I think it might be more accurate to say that each of us is born with the stain of original sin–our guilt from the sin of our earliest parents Adam and Eve. The penalty of that sin carried down through the ages is the fact that we certainly don’t live in any paradise like Eden and we all must face death ultimately.

Just as if we sin later in life, we can confess that sin and be forgiven but still must make atonement for the sin, (for instance if you steal something you can receive forgiveness in confession but still must atone by returning the item you stole or pay for it) we receive forgiveness for original sin at Baptism—but part of our atonement is that we still must suffer death.

I’ve always questioned the whole “age of reason” thing myself too. I guess the church had to set some arbitrary age,but I know some kids are more mature and others less at any given age. Therefore, I suspect God’s idea of the “age of reason” may differ from the church view. For instance, I guess I was what some people might call an “old soul” but I remember many things that happened prior to the birth of my only sister when I was 3 years old. By 7, I could read and write and believe me, by 5 or 6 I can well remember a few times that I deliberately disobeyed my parents and knew full well what I was doing and that it was wrong!

Be that as it may, at whatever age God decides that any given person has reason, then before that age, they couldn’t possibly commit a deliberate sin as they can’t differentiate between right and wrong. Thus if a Baptized 4 year old got ahold of a loaded gun and shot their mother and then themselves, the child would probably go straight to heaven as they have no idea what they are doing. What happens if the 4 year old was not Baptized and dies is less certain, but we do believe that if Baptism is desired but a person dies before actually being able to receive the sacrament that they are baptized by desire—and I suspect that God probably also has a plan for little children who die unbaptized through no fault of their own.

As to Lucifer, we are taught that God created him as a very good and high ranking angel. There are a number of stories about what actually caused him to choose to turn away from God; from him wanting to be considered a god himself to him wanting to have relations with human women and I don’t think anyone knows for sure what the root cause was of his disobedience. However, regardless of why he decided to disobey God, he did so out of basically the sin of pride. The angels were created with free will just as humans were–they could choose to do right or wrong another words though when they first came into existence they were all good. When Satan committed whatever his actual sin was, he was banished from heaven just as Adam and Eve were banished from Eden when they chose to sin. So God didn’t create evil. Rather he created everything good in His own image—but He gave His more superior creations such as mankind and angels free will. Thus some of His creations chose good and others chose evil. The choice is ultimately ours.
 
… The angels were created with free will just as humans were–they could choose to do right or wrong…
First, I think you meant evil when you said “they could do right or wrong”. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Second, how he or anyone else could perform an act of evil if there is no inner force/source supporting evil act. I am sure you know what I mean as we all sometimes commit evil or are seduced by a inner force/source to commit evil.
 
First, I think you meant evil when you said “they could do right or wrong”. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Second, how he or anyone else could perform an act of evil if there is no inner force/source supporting evil act. I am sure you know what I mean as we all sometimes commit evil or are seduced by a inner force/source to commit evil.
Is “evil” a “something”? Is “evil” an absence of something?

Is “evil” the absent of God’s “goodness”, “holiness”?

Was “evil created” if it is not something, but a chosen absent of God’s presence, a rejection of God?

Is the degree of “evil”, the degree of which God’s presence has been rejected by people or angels?
 
My quest is to understand my self, creation and Self (God) **without accepting any faith **since I believe that our journey toward God, understanding self and creation is never paradox/anomaly free, hence we have to be open with new ideas, discuss them openly and accept them as temporary substrate to see and look farther.
My prayer for you:

May God lead you to Himself and His Truth in the Faith He has given us as a gift to knowing and understanding Him, His creation, and yourself.

May you always continue to look deeper for God. May you find His Peace in your search.

May you find that while you look deeper for God, that you find the answers have been given as a gift from God to His Holy Church.

May you lay yourself open to Him. Quieting your mind. Resting simply in His Presence. Listening to Him through each day.
 
**My quest is to understand my self, creation and Self (God) without accepting any faith **since I believe that our journey toward God, understanding self and creation is never paradox/anomaly free, hence we have to be open with new ideas, discuss them openly and accept them as temporary substrate to see and look farther.
How do you continue this quest to understand God, His creation, and yourself while not accepting of any faith?

Do you spend time in prayer, in the manner of prayer from any faith?
 
My quest is to understand my self, creation and Self (God) without accepting any faith since I believe that our journey toward God, understanding self and creation is never paradox/anomaly free, hence we have to be open with new ideas, discuss them openly and accept them as temporary substrate to see and look farther.
Bahman,
You sound like you are truly seeking to understand some complex ideas about God. We here, however, are answering you as amateurs. I find that when I really want to know the truth about something it is best to find and learn from The Expert in that question. Then you will be as close to paradox/anomaly free as is possible.
If you want to really understand this question, I would suggest you study the First Part of the Summa Theologica of St. Thomas Aquinas ccel.org/ccel/aquinas/summa.i.html ) where St Thomas will lead you to understand this God of whom we write, and even love him. And if you move on to the Second Part, he will also show you how to understand yourself and participation in this God. It is hard work to be his student, but by the end of your study you will easily answer others with questions like the ones you raise, and feel at home with this God who creates only good and in the incarnation interacts with us to give us life and deliverance from evil. I hope you have perseverance to do this; and you will be very glad you did it.

John Martin
 
My quest is to understand my self, creation and Self (God) **without accepting any faith **since I believe that our journey toward God, understanding self and creation is never paradox/anomaly free, **hence we have to be open **with new ideas, discuss them openly and accept them as temporary substrate to see and look farther.
If to take your quest, you “have to be open”, yet you close your openness by making the quest “without accepting any faith.”… have you not created your own contradiction?
 
And what this power to to choose and perform evil is? Is it good or is lack of good?
The power to choose good or evil is good because otherwise we would be incapable of love and moral responsibility.
 
Maybe I shouldn’t get involved in this discussion this late in the game, but I wanted to just say that a newborn child is not the slightest bit lifeless when it is delivered from it’s mother’s womb and until it takes its first breath. I’ve seen many babies only delivered to the shoulders wrinkle their little faces and open and shut their eyes. Also, if you have ever seen a water birth, the baby will swim around until you bring it to the surface–also before taking its first breath.
I know what you are saying, but while there is ‘movement’ before the first breath, that ‘pause’ between switching from placenta to lungs just makes me think ‘mystery’. We wait for that ‘first cry’ with bated breath of our own - it is not a given.

World view: Life is in the movement. End of story.

Spiritual view: There’s ‘life’ and there’s Life. The difference being in who/what is the source of the power producing the movement.

Christ came to give us Life. Therefore, what I currently have is ‘life’. As if my body is animated by false current, so to speak. I must be re-born.

I also think about the weird cravings of pregnant women. It’s as if a foreign spirit has entered with likes and dislikes and thoughts of its own.

How it all works is very curious study.

From a commentary on Through the Looking Glass:

“A chess game in which living pieces are ignorant of the game’s plan (and actual players) and cannot tell if they move of their own wills or are being pushed by invisible fingers.”
 
It should be obvious by now that somebody on this thread never “learns” anything since the thread began,
but rather he keeps asking questions as if seeking knowledge,
which only has the effect of making people dance like puppets on a string.

This can go on forever.

It amazes me that people can fall for this game. 😦
 
Originally Posted by RoseMary131 forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
How many “beings” are each of us?
I don’t exactly know, maybe infinite.
You express that there can be an infinite number of “beings” in each of us or forming each of us.

How do you explain all the “beings” within one person or being?

What do you define as “a being” in a person?

From what faith group do you have an understanding of a person as more than one being?
 
Rape is morally wrong and morally evil. In your concern post that is evil. This does not mean that Human beings are born with evil as you said to rape. The correct term is original sin which is cleansed in baptism and life united with Jesus Christ. Where could an evil act like rape come from? It comes from an outside evil source namely Lucifer and deliberately chose out of free will. This is not what life meant to be. All humanity is called by God through Jesus Christ to do good.
I hope it becomes more clearer to your concern.
This does not mean that Human beings are born with evil as you said to rape.
I’m not sure where the idea of infant Baptism washing away original sin comes from, but whatever such Baptism does, it doesn’t change the inherent condition of the heart. It was my understanding that infant Baptism was a promise before God to raise the child up on the Word of God (with a double insurance of that in electing godparents).

My heart certainly wasn’t cleansed by infant Baptism, but the evil within me was surely stifled by a parochial education and parents who did their best to instill civilized behavior from Biblical direction.

The greatest hurdle I had in my deep desire to Understand the anger that was within me was to make the transition from looking at someone who had comitted a heinous crime and saying, “Not me!” to saying, “I Am That.” The only difference between me and Hitler, a rapist or Vlad the Impaler is the outward expression of the thoughts of the heart. Unlove is unlove - thought, word or deed.

It often takes a major ‘driver change’ for us to be slapped up side the head to the evil withn us. The person who gets drunk (relinquishing consciousness to the imp) who then kills, for instance. When I had alcoholic blackouts, who was driving the bus of my body as it continued to act? But we don’t need alcohol or major psychotic break to bring the imp to the forefront. Awareness is the answer.

As many authors have expressed, the imp/ego usually does a gradual takeover or a ‘comfortale truce’ (death by self-righteousness). Like the proverbial frog gradually boiled alive. The object is to become aware of being manipulated from within. Before I can be Saved, I must first be grass-roots-convinced that I am, beyond doubt, in need of a Savior.

I don’t know all the ways that our ‘life force’ is poured out/decreased/depleted, but I do know that sexual release, crocodile tears, cruel laughter, and any release of anger are some major ones. (One of my favorites was sarcasm.) There’s a big difference between crocodile tears that release a build-up of self-pity/anger and:

“The honest cries of breaking hearts
Are better than a Hallelujah.” (lyrics, Amy Grant)

I’m not saying that typical crying (and other outlets) aren’t useful in the natural so that people don’t ‘explode’ - **but when one knows the path to having that energy redirected for spiritual growth, the light of Clarity come on in amazing ways. How does Salt lose its power/savor/potency? And, once it has become dull/depleted, how to have it restored? No one on the outside bleeds us dry - we unwittingly allow it to be done to us from within.

If we want to discover the source of evil, we need to look with rigorous honesty within ourselves. “I’ve met the enemy - it is within.”

The ‘living sacrifice’ is the false Self. But, as Andrew Womack so humorously puts it, “Living sacriffices have a tendency to keep crawling off the altar.”

** Simply abstaining for any outlet for emotional distress can have unintended negative consequences. And when ‘doing it wrong’ causes us to fail, we lose confidence in our ability to experience lasting changes.
 
My heart certainly wasn’t cleansed by infant Baptism, but the evil within me was surely stifled by a parochial education and parents who did their best to instill civilized behavior from Biblical direction.
Dearest Jeanne,

A reflection on one point of your post:

Baptism (infant or otherwise) affects your soul. Baptism gives you graces that can not be measures. You may not have been aware of the graces poured upon you or how those graces affected you - as you can not be aware of how your life would have been without those graces.

Baptism leaves an indelible mark on your soul. Sins are forgiven in Baptism - original and personal sin.

If you would like to read about the Church teaching on Baptism - Here is the Catechism of the Catholic Church on Baptism.

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c1a1.htm

An article on Baptism:

catholicculture.org/culture/library/catechism/index.cfm?recnum=4119
 
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Bahman:
If we accept that we have evil being as a potential that could lead to doing evil, then the question is how good God could create evil being inside us knowing that God could only do good things, unless we accept that there is a good purpose for creating evil inside us.
We were not created with any evil aspect. The possibility of evil stems necessarily from free will, which is not a bad thing. Not sure why there’s a problem here.
 
First, what was his unpardonable sin.
To lie is to blaspheme against Truth, the Holy Spirit. This is the unpardonable sin. It, the holding of truth in unrighteousness, already in this life has awful consequences
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
**And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. (Roman 1.18-32)
**
Second, how he could perform that sin? I mean what was the source evil act. And last, why we should blame Satan for our bad intention, thought and acts?
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. (John 8.44)
Truth is life, falsity is death.
 
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