How could good God create creatures with evil and good being?

[tonyrey]

It should be obvious by now that somebody on this thread never “learns” anything since the thread began,
but rather he keeps asking questions as if seeking knowledge,
which only has the effect of making people dance like puppets on a string.

This can go on forever.

It amazes me that people can fall for this game.

The Socratic technique can have useful results>

 

[Bahman]

Is “evil” a “something”? Is “evil” an absence of something?

Evil is something. It cannot be absence of something otherwise devil is nothing.

Is “evil” the absent of God’s “goodness”, “holiness”?

Evil is a force against good. It is something by itself or in anther word is not absense of something.

Was “evil created” if it is not something, but a chosen absent of God’s presence, a rejection of God?

The main question is what was the initial source of force supporting the rejection of God which is evil, evil itself. But the question is where that initial source of evil could come from if God hasn’t create it?

 

[Bahman]

How do you continue this quest to understand God, His creation, and yourself while not accepting of any faith?

Do you spend time in prayer, in the manner of prayer from any faith?

I continue my quest by reading, thinking, discussing.

I unfortunately don’t believe on praying.

 

[Bahman]

If to take your quest, you “have to be open”, yet you close your openness by making the quest “without accepting any faith.”… have you not created your own contradiction?

I have already tried a few faiths.

 

[Bahman]

It should be obvious by now that somebody on this thread never “learns” anything since the thread began,
but rather he keeps asking questions as if seeking knowledge,
which only has the effect of making people dance like puppets on a string.

This can go on forever.

It amazes me that people can fall for this game.

It would be nice if you could add up something by having a positive look to any question which is made. By the way, do you have any answer to origin of evil? Where it comes from if it was not created.

 

[Bahman]

The power to choose good or evil is good because otherwise we would be incapable of love and moral responsibility.

That I completely agree with it, but what is the origin of evil?

 

[Bahman]

We were not created with any evil aspect. The possibility of evil stems necessarily from free will, which is not a bad thing. Not sure why there’s a problem here.

No, free will is the ability to choose between at least two options. It has nothing with emergence of evil.

 

[Regency]

Isn’t falsehood the contradiction of truth? No man having been deceived with the tuth e.g., who was under the impression of having solved a difficult problem & then found that he was wrong, will deny his being struck by how evil falsehood is. One would rather die.

Evil = falsehood, hence Jesus calling Satan the father of all falsehood. The unpardonable sin is lying. But already in this life the holding of the truth in unrighteousness does have fatal consequences:

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

**Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.** (Romans 1.18-32)

 

[Bahman]

You express that there can be an infinite number of “beings” in each of us or forming each of us.

How do you explain all the “beings” within one person or being?

For your personal life, you experience, childhood, adult… your point of view also changes over time.

What do you define as “a being” in a person?

From what faith group do you have an understanding of a person as more than one being?

This depends very much on how do define a person. We all know that we could evolve and change over time. What really self is? We don’t exactly know. The only thing that we know for sure is that all our intellectual, behavioural… has a deep root in there. Our journey toward God is unique and we might undergo several changes to adopt ourselves with the current state of creation which is not only our sole universe.

 

[Bahman]

Isn’t falsehood the contradiction of truth? No man having been deceived with the tuth e.g., who was under the impression of having solved a difficult problem & then found that he was wrong, will deny his being struck by how evil falsehood is. One would rather die.

Evil = falsehood, hence Jesus calling Satan the father of all falsehood. The unpardonable sin is lying. But already in this life the holding of the truth in unrighteousness does have fatal consequences:

How Satan turned into devil? He was not devil since the first day of his creation!

 

[Regency]

He was:

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. (John 8.44)

Satan is the most wise creature, he is the contradiction of the Holy Spirit (the one is created the other not, the one is falsehood the other not):

Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? (Genesis 3.1)

Think of it, should an originally non evil creature that is also most wise turn evil without repenting in the end? Those who perish, except Satan, are fools

Therefore my people are gone into captivity, because they have no knowledge: and their honourable men are famished, and their multitude dried up with thirst. (Isaiah 5.13)

This is also why Jesus said

Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered. (Luke 11.52)

or

Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch. (Matthew 15.14)

This is why the holding of the truth in unrighteousness & lies are unpardonable.

 

[Bahman]

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

So he was created as devil since the first day. If this verse is correct, then that was God who create devil being since it is clearly mentioned that “he was a murderer since the first day”. That means that God created perfect devil!

 

[Regency]

Of course. This is revealed in

Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? (John 6.70)

We’re but gears & screws.

 

[Regency]

What is the name of the people of God? Is it not Israel? What is the meaning of “Israel”, what did Jacob do? The people of God, His saints, those He did separate unto His formidable self, those He gave to His Son, know that He is their enemy. Those who think God is their friend are being deceived. Their god is Satan.

There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death. (Proverbs 16.25)

 

[Bahman]

What is the name of the people of God? Is it not Israel? What is the meaning of “Israel”, what did Jacob do? The people of God, His saints, those He did separate unto His formidable self, those He gave to His Son, know that He is their enemy.

I don’t understand what you are trying to say here.

Those who think God is their friend are being deceived. Their god is Satan.

Are you trying to say that God cannot be a friend?, and as a result their God is Satan.

 

[Regency]

And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. (Genesis 32.28)

Those who live on earth do not understand this. Those who live in heaven do.

 

[davidv]

How Satan turned into devil? He was not devil since the first day of his creation!

He chose evil (not God) instead of good.

 

[Bahman]

He chose evil instead of good.

He couldn’t possibly chose evil if he was not exposed to evil or has evil within. That also apply to us as well. We cannot possibly chose evil if we are not exposed to evil or have evil within.

Moreover there is this verse that says that he was a perfect devil since the first day, I suspect that the first day means the day of his creation.

John 8.44: Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

 

[davidv]

He couldn’t possibly chose evil if he was not exposed to evil or has evil within. That also apply to us as well. We cannot possibly chose evil if we are not exposed to evil or have evil within.

Why not? He was exposed to God. He chose to reject God (an evil).

Moreover there is this verse that says that he was a perfect devil since the first day, I suspect that the first day means the day of his creation.

John 8.44: Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

I don’t believe it means what you think it means. As a creature of God, the devil was created good. Like mankind, the angels were given free will. Some of the angels used this free will to reject God. These are now known as the devils.

 

[Bahman]

Why not? He was exposed to God. He chose to reject God (an evil).

Why yes? He was only exposed to God (perfect good), he has no evil inside (he was created good as he was the highest angel), and suddenly one day he strangely does evil (which is neither because of exposure to evil nor having evil inside) and turn away from God. Don’t you see something logically wrong with this picture?

I don’t believe it means what you think it means. As a creature of God, the devil was created good. Like mankind, the angels were given free will. Some of the angels used this free will to reject God. These are now known as the devils.

What the first day is in the verse I quoted?