How could good God create creatures with evil and good being?

[davidv]

Why yes? He was only exposed to God (perfect good), he has no evil inside (he was created good as he was the highest angel), and suddenly one day he strangely does evil (which is neither because of exposure to evil nor having evil inside) and turn away from God. Don’t you see something logically wrong with this picture?

Yes, you have false premise. That being the evil is an entity rather than a privation.

What the first day is in the verse I quoted?

I don’t know. It may not be a day as we currently know it. It may have preexisted time.

 

[Bahman]

Yes, you have false premise. That being the evil is an entity rather than a privation.

Assuming that the definition evil is correct, which I don’t agree with it, why there should be any privation of good there? There is only God and angels on top of them Lucifer. So what was wrong or went wrong?

I don’t know. It may not be a day as we currently know it. It may have preexisted time.

First day when it applies to someone has one single meaning. For example I was a good person since the first day explicitly means I was a good person since my time of birth. We don’t know how angles comes to this world, so first day is day of their creations if they don’t give birth to their kids.

 

[Regency]

Whether something is good or evil from the beginning is known at the end. It never did taste evil or else spew evil by tasting evil.

Adam is good from the beginning because his sin was purified with sin: the sacrifice of Jesus, the Son of Man & Son of God. His end is the seventh day, though many end in the sixth.

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. (Genesis 2.17)

Satan is evil from the beginning because his end is the sixth day.

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: (Matthew 25.41)

Hence something that is good from the beginning, should it become evil, repents.

 

[SentinelofTruth]

The devil was created good, but turned evil in the realm of eternity, so that at every moment in time, even the beginning of time, he was already evil and in hell.

Bahman:

He couldn’t possibly chose evil if he was not exposed to evil or has evil within. That also apply to us as well. We cannot possibly chose evil if we are not exposed to evil or have evil within.

Free will, since it does not in itself have any particular choices attached to it, is neutral in itself. It doesn’t need to be evil to be used for evil. A non-evil object, say a hunting rifle, can be used to shoot a person (evil).

 

[tonyrey]

The power to choose good or evil is good because otherwise we would be incapable of love and moral responsibility.

Choice (moral evil) and chance (physical evil)!

 

[RoseMary131]

I continue my quest by reading, thinking, discussing.

I unfortunately don’t believe on praying.

Why is it unfortunate that you don’t believe on praying?

 

[RoseMary131]

                 Originally Posted by **RoseMary131**                     [forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=11217264#post11217264)                 
             If to take your  quest, you "have to be open", yet you close your openness by making the  quest "without accepting any faith.".... have you not created your own  contradiction?

I have already tried a few faiths.

What faiths have you tried?

 

[mytruepower2]

How could good God create creatures with evil and good being?

If we accept that we have evil being as a potential that could lead to doing evil, then the question is how good God could create evil being inside us knowing that God could only do good things, unless we accept that there is a good purpose for creating evil inside us.

I would reply that “evil being” is a contradiction in terms, since “being” is by nature a good thing.

Therefore, because this notion of “evil being” implies a contradiction, it could not be done by God.

Now, that said, having evil within one’s nature is entirely possible. This merely means that there is an absence of good in one’s nature, which -ought to be there.- However, the evil still wouldn’t be caused by God, but by something else.

 

[Regency]

You speak in contradiction with / negate what Jesus spoke. Contradiction / negation is an elementary concept.

 

[SentinelofTruth]

mytruepower2:

I would reply that “evil being” is a contradiction in terms, since “being” is by nature a good thing.

No, it’s not. Isn’t satan an evil being?

mytruepower2:

Now, that said, having evil within one’s nature is entirely possible. This merely means that there is an absence of good in one’s nature, which -ought to be there.- However, the evil still wouldn’t be caused by God, but by something else.

This also, if meant as a defense against what Bahman was originally saying, is circular.

 

[Bahman]

The devil was created good, but turned evil in the realm of eternity, so that at every moment in time, even the beginning of time, he was already evil and in hell.

How did they turn into devil? Why he was already evil in the beginning of time if he was not created devil? I think there is something logically wrong in your statement, first you say that the evil was created good then you say that they were evil since first day!

Free will, since it does not in itself have any particular choices attached to it, is neutral in itself. It doesn’t need to be evil to be used for evil. A non-evil object, say a hunting rifle, can be used to shoot a person (evil).

Free will is the ability to choose between at least two feasible options, lets say in this case is evil and good. First, where the evil thought comes from in the place that everything was perfect? Second, God is perfect good and they were created good, then how possibly they decide to do a evil thing leaving this lovely situation? For what reason?

 

[Bahman]

Why is it unfortunate that you don’t believe on praying?

No I don’t believe on praying.

 

[Bahman]

No, it’s not. Isn’t satan an evil being?

The question is how he turned into evil? He was higher rank angel and has perfect relationship with God, suddenly he decided to turn into devil and rejected by God from heaven? Isn’t it common sense.

 

[tonyrey]

Choice (moral evil) and chance (physical evil)!

All evil is ultimately due to ignorance because we don’t always realise our vices make us unlovable. They are forms of selfishness which alienate us from others and lead to isolation.

 

[tonyrey]

No I don’t believe on praying.

Then you are trapped in a mental world of your own and your God is useless!

 

[tonyrey]

The question is how he turned into evil? He was higher rank angel and has perfect relationship with God, suddenly he decided to turn into devil and rejected by God from heaven? Isn’t it common sense.

Yes! Persons are not machines. We are never compelled to love God - or anyone else…

BTW “suddenly” is incorrect because in the spiritual world there is no time or space.

 

[Bahman]

Then you are trapped in a mental world of your own and your God is useless!

Why? Our world would be very different if our praying were useful. That doesn’t mean that God doesn’t hear them though but that is the right way to approach God in my opinion.

 

[tonyrey]

Then you are trapped in a mental world of your own and your God is useless!

How do you know that?

That doesn’t mean that God doesn’t hear them though but that is the right way to approach God in my opinion.

To approach God as totally indifferent and unresponsive to our prayers? That shows an absolute lack of love and concern on the part of our Creator.

 

[Regency]

How do you know that?

To approach God as totally indifferent and unresponsive to our prayers? That shows an absolute lack of love and concern on the part of our Creator.

God is the enemy of His people. Those who consider their god to be a friend of theirs have Satan for god. This is supported by logic & Scripture.

Prayers are, for the most part, sin. They come out of us, they defile us. True prayer is constant thinking, cf. what Paul has to say on this matter or Jesus’ worship in Spirit. Constant thinking is living in the Logos, The Son of God. There, our sins are no more. As soon as we come back our sins are.

His disciples asked him and said to him, “Do you want us to fast? How should we pray? Should we give to charity? What diet should we observe?” Jesus said, “Don’t lie, and don’t do what you hate, because all things are disclosed before heaven. After all, there is nothing hidden that will not be revealed, and there is nothing covered up that will remain undisclosed.” (Gospel of Thomas 6)

Jesus said to them, “If you fast, you will bring sin upon yourselves, and if you pray, you will be condemned, and if you give to charity, you will harm your spirits. When you go into any region and walk about in the countryside, when people take you in, eat what they serve you and heal the sick among them. After all, what goes into your mouth will not defile you; rather, it’s what comes out of your mouth that will defile you.” (ibid 14)

They said to Jesus, “Come, let us pray today, and let us fast.” Jesus said, “What sin have I committed, or how have I been undone? Rather, when the groom leaves the bridal suite, then let people fast and pray.” (104)

Yes, not canonical, but certain passages, like the above, are real I believe.

All evil is ultimately due to ignorance because we don’t always realise our vices make us unlovable. They are forms of selfishness which alienate us from others and lead to isolation.

But isn’t ignorance the negation of knowledge? Negation. Satan.

 

[Bahman]

How do you know that?

How you could prove the opposite?

To approach God as totally indifferent and unresponsive to our prayers? That shows an absolute lack of love and concern on the part of our Creator.

Yes, to approach God in totally indifferent and unresponsive to our prayer. And that dose not lack love and concern for our Creator. It is another way to approach God, by understanding God, creation and attention which is involved on sustaining creation. I do know what my love means for God but I am sure that its attention (the quality of love or whatever you wish to call it) to me beyond my comprehension.