How could Hell be worse than the desert of faith or the dark night of the soul?

[Neoplatonist]

I understand the sincerity, but what’s the real intention? Are you looking for some reward? What would that be? And why?

No, exactly the opposite. Neither would they consider it to be “suffering”. They were thankful for the aridity and emptiness, because they knew that they were being conformed more perfectly to Christ. They saw it as a blessing, as do I.

If you want a full treatment of this issue, I suggest that you read “Fire Within” by Fr. Thomas DuBay. It’s his summation of Teresa of Avila and John of the Cross and their writings on contemplative prayer. Included in it are their words on spiritual aridity and detachment. Perhaps it would be a benefit to you.

If feeling loved is a reward, then yes. Is that not what we are made to seek?

Well, if they’re happy for it while it’s happening, it isn’t the same as suffering, it’s more like a spiritual Monster Mudder race, or a desert marathon event.

Books written by people who received consolation and feeling of love on the other side of the trial are not an comfort to me, because the people who never make it to that stage don’t sit down to write books about how awesome everything turned out. It’s confirmation bias, in a way.

I’m curious, though, do you think their feeling of faith through the trial was through their own merit or effort, or do you agree with the Catechism that grace is a gift?

 

[Amandil]

If feeling loved is a reward, then yes. Is that not what we are made to seek?

No. We were made to seek His kingdom. Sure spiritual consolations are good in themselves, but they are at best secondary and not to be sought as an end in themselves.

Spiritual maturity consists in glorying in our sufferings for Christ just as much as we glory in our pleasures and consolations.

Well, if they’re happy for it while it’s happening, it isn’t the same as suffering, it’s more like a spiritual Monster Mudder race, or a desert marathon event.

And that’s because happiness consists of what we do with the circumstances given to us. You can be happy and peaceful and joyful even in the midst of terrible pain and suffering.

Books written by people who received consolation and feeling of love on the other side of the trial are not an comfort to me, because the people who never make it to that stage don’t sit down to write books about how awesome everything turned out. It’s confirmation bias, in a way.

Well, if you’re not going to avail yourself of the words of Saints and Doctors of the Church in such spiritual matters then you are allowing yourself to be in a sore disadvantage in trying to understand spiritual matters. It also makes me wonder why you would call their character, motives, and experience into question.

I’m curious, though, do you think their feeling of faith through the trial was through their own merit or effort, or do you agree with the Catechism that grace is a gift?

Everything is grace, even the gift of faith. Faith is not a certitude, feelings of faith come and go, the grace of faith is more certain, solid, and permanent. I don’t trust in feelings of faith, I trust in Christ to grant me the graces which I need to persevere. Feelings or needing to feel things can more often than not be a stumbling block to faith.

 

[Neoplatonist]

No. We were made to seek His kingdom. Sure spiritual consolations are good in themselves, but they are at best secondary and not to be sought as an end in themselves.

Spiritual maturity consists in glorying in our sufferings for Christ just as much as we glory in our pleasures and consolations.

Well, if you’re not going to avail yourself of the words of Saints and Doctors of the Church in such spiritual matters then you are allowing yourself to be in a sore disadvantage in trying to understand spiritual matters. It also makes me wonder why you would call their character, motives, and experience into question.

Everything is grace, even the gift of faith. Faith is not a certitude, feelings of faith come and go, the grace of faith is more certain, solid, and permanent. I don’t trust in feelings of faith, I trust in Christ to grant me the graces which I need to persevere. Feelings or needing to feel things can more often than not be a stumbling block to faith.

Have read and studied much from them. No, not calling their motives into question. I’m sure they experienced what they say and wrote for the reasons that they say. I’m calling into question whether we can fairly conclude from those select examples whether all spiritual struggles turn out with such a happy ending.

Fine. Blame it on my spiritual immaturity. I’m perfectly OK with that. Maybe I’m spiritually immature and need more help and comfort from God than those more mature and wise might. So? If a child is struggling and needs more help with math or reading, do we not, therefore, give him more? I’ve always been willing to be Doubting Thomas in all his wimpiness, and would take my rebuke or chiding or whatever from Christ for needing extra help. MORE than worth a rebuke to receive it directly from Him.

 

[Amandil]

Have read and studied much from them. No, not calling their motives into question. I’m sure they experienced what they say and wrote for the reasons that they say. I’m calling into question whether we can fairly conclude from those select examples whether all spiritual struggles turn out with such a happy ending.

If they are sent by God then the answer is yes.

Fine. Blame it on my spiritual immaturity. I’m perfectly OK with that. Maybe I’m spiritually immature and need more help and comfort from God than those more mature and wise might. So? If a child is struggling and needs more help with math or reading, do we not, therefore, give him more? I’ve always been willing to be Doubting Thomas in all his wimpiness, and would take my rebuke or chiding or whatever from Christ for needing extra help. MORE than worth a rebuke to receive it directly from Him.

God already provides us with all that we need to advance spiritually. The sad fact is that people attempting to advance 1) refuse to address their own sinfulness even regarding the conquering of venial sins which are a stumbling block to advancement and 2) people often avoid the competent spiritual direction thinking that it’s something personal and between only them and God when in reality God’s not even in the discussion, it’s just them conversing with themselves.

What God ultimately wants is not a child who constantly needs support or else they fall, what He wants is a person who has been perfected in virtue and formed their wills to such a state so as to be able to do the good in all things absent any other helps. This is much of the purpose of spiritual aridity, He wants you (us) to proceed on your own, to carry out His will by your will alone.

The promise is that what He takes away to begin with He returns ten-fold when you have advanced. How long it takes depends on you. There have been people who went through such dryness for years, again, God knows what you need better than you do. It simply comes down to whether or not you have the faith to trust in Him when you have no consolation other than His word.

 

[Neoplatonist]

If they are sent by God then the answer is yes.

God already provides us with all that we need to advance spiritually. The sad fact is that people attempting to advance 1) refuse to address their own sinfulness even regarding the conquering of venial sins which are a stumbling block to advancement and 2) people often avoid the competent spiritual direction thinking that it’s something personal and between only them and God when in reality God’s not even in the discussion, it’s just them conversing with themselves.

What God ultimately wants is not a child who constantly needs support or else they fall, what He wants is a person who has been perfected in virtue and formed their wills to such a state so as to be able to do the good in all things absent any other helps. This is much of the purpose of spiritual aridity, He wants you (us) to proceed on your own, to carry out His will by your will alone.

The promise is that what He takes away to begin with He returns ten-fold when you have advanced. How long it takes depends on you. There have been people who went through such dryness for years, again, God knows what you need better than you do. It simply comes down to whether or not you have the faith to trust in Him when you have no consolation other than His word.

1.But I won’t know if the dryness is sent by God or not until the point of resolution. In the meantime, there is no way to tell the difference between this and Hell (in which there would never be a resolution). All the way up to an infinite amount of time, as I hear you, I would not be able to discern whether this was a function of my own will or a test sent to me by God to perfect me.

2.Right. Variations on “my fault.” A common theme.

3.Why do you keep absolutizing? There is a lot of ground between CONSTANT and EVER.

4.On your model where God wants us to proceed on our own, why, then, is our tradition chock full of stories of intervention by Him and His angels?

5.And how, exactly, am I supposed to be sure I’m carrying out His will if I never get an ounce of direct feedback? If nothing I do seems to change whether my father speaks to me when I ask him a question, how in the world would I know if I was pleasing him or not?

6.I have to trust Him AND myself. Without his feedback, how would I know if the dryness was my error or His intention?

7.I’m a bit confused, you say we need others (spiritual direction) and that he wants us to proceed on our own. ?]

8.“Competent” spiritual direction? That just sets up a third man argument. How would I know this person is competent unless the advice they give me results in some kind of affirming feedback from God? How do they know if they’re right? Are THEY getting affirming feedback from God? Hopefully I’m not staking my life in eternity on my hope that they’re right about their hope for what God wants. ?]

 

[Winterwolf00]

But you could have had so much.

I have gained more living for others then I would’ve if I were ‘faithful’.
I have lost nothing but empty promises.

 

[Amandil]

1.But I won’t know if the dryness is sent by God or not until the point of resolution. In the meantime, there is no way to tell the difference between this and Hell (in which there would never be a resolution). All the way up to an infinite amount of time, as I hear you, I would not be able to discern whether this was a function of my own will or a test sent to me by God to perfect me.

Wrong. Any competent confessor or spiritual director within the Church can help you discern one from the other. That the Church is the pillar and bulwark of the truth is not merely an apologetic catch phrase.

2.Right. Variations on “my fault.” A common theme.

Accepting responsibility and our limitations or weaknesses is a mark of maturity in any development. It’s a mark of humility. And there can be no real progress in the spiritual life without humility.

3.Why do you keep absolutizing?

Why do you? I have a difficult time believing that you have never been consoled in spirit.

4.On your model where God wants us to proceed on our own, why, then, is our tradition chock full of stories of intervention by Him and His angels?

Because those inventions were according to His will, they were also extraordinary.

Salvation history is also chock-full of hundreds and thousands of years where God did not intervene through extraordinary means. Where His people had to procede just as we do now, through faith. “Blessed are those who have not seen yet still believe.”

5.And how, exactly, am I supposed to be sure I’m carrying out His will if I never get an ounce of direct feedback? If nothing I do seems to change whether my father speaks to me when I ask him a question, how in the world would I know if I was pleasing him or not?

Again, this is where the Church comes in. Any confessor or spiritual director can help you discern this and you can be guaranteed that they speak for God.

6.I have to trust Him AND myself. Without his feedback, how would I know if the dryness was my error or His intention?

See above.

7.I’m a bit confused, you say we need others (spiritual direction) and that he wants us to proceed on our own. ?]

Perhaps I wasn’t clear enough. The goal of our lives is to be conformed perfectly to Christ. This includes that our hearts will be such that agape love will be perfected in us and that in all things we will be able to love perfectly as Christ does from our wills. Being perfected as such means that we will not explicitly need any help or consolation to love as God does. This is what is meant by disinterested love: a love which seeks only the highest good of the beloved with no thought for his/her own.

Obviously we need help getting to that state of perfection.

Is that clearer?

8.“Competent” spiritual direction? That just sets up a third man argument. How would I know this person is competent unless the advice they give me results in some kind of affirming feedback from God?
How do they know if they’re right? Are THEY getting affirming feedback from God? Hopefully I’m not staking my life in eternity on my hope that they’re right about their hope for what God wants. ?]

“Where two or more are gathered there in my name, I am there in their midst.”

Again this seems to boil down to not being able to trust God to use a confessor or spiritual director as His instrument. There are many great priests who are great SD’s.

Not sure if they are spiritual people? Look for the fruits of the Spirit, spiritual people have them in spades, and most of all they are prayerful, they never do anything without waiting on the Spirit.

 

[Neoplatonist]

Accepting responsibility and our limitations or weaknesses is a mark of maturity in any development. It’s a mark of humility. And there can be no real progress in the spiritual life without humility.

Why do you? I have a difficult time believing that you have never been consoled in spirit.

Again, this is where the Church comes in. Any confessor or spiritual director can help you discern this and you can be guaranteed that they speak for God.

Again this seems to boil down to not being able to trust God to use a confessor or spiritual director as His instrument. There are many great priests who are great SD’s.

Not sure if they are spiritual people? Look for the fruits of the Spirit, spiritual people have them in spades, and most of all they are prayerful, they never do anything without waiting on the Spirit.

1.I’m never one to claim any maturity, but I’m perfectly aware of my ability to be wrong.

2.Why is that hard to believe when you just pointed out that God has gone thousands of years without offering consolation to whole groups?

3.I have talked to a handful over the past ten years. Not one priest has time for personal SD, and they have said as much. You must know a bunch of different kinds of priests than I do. I have lunch with a bishop a couple times a year, and that’s as close as it gets.

 

[Neoplatonist]

Why do you? I have a difficult time believing that you have never been consoled in spirit.

Because those inventions were according to His will, they were also extraordinary.

Maybe I’m not watching for the right things to find consolation, because of all those extraordinary stories. What kind of things would you consider to be signs of a personal response?

 

[Amandil]

Maybe I’m not watching for the right things to find consolation, because of all those extraordinary stories. What kind of things would you consider to be signs of a personal response?

Inner peace is the most common gift of the Spirit when we are aligned with the will of God.

 

[Amandil]

1.I’m never one to claim any maturity, but I’m perfectly aware of my ability to be wrong.

2.Why is that hard to believe when you just pointed out that God has gone thousands of years without offering consolation to whole groups?

You’re misconstruing what I said. I said that God did not intervene through extraordinary means, which is the type of interventions you were referring to.

I said nothing about consolations of spirit which are not extraordinary explicitly speaking. Being spiritual in nature the consolations we receive often from God are so delicate that they are indiscernable and inexplicable.

We are called to such heights of prayer and holiness that even visions and locutions are entirely possible to those advanced enough in their prayer relationship with God. But again the key word is advanced, most people can’t get past the effort of divesting themselves of habitual venal sins to get beyond what Teresa of Avila describes as the first or second castle.

3.I have talked to a handful over the past ten years. Not one priest has time for personal SD, and they have said as much. You must know a bunch of different kinds of priests than I do. I have lunch with a bishop a couple times a year, and that’s as close as it gets.

Perhaps I do, but none of the priests that you spoke with could recommend a SD that you could speak with? Perhaps a religious brother?

 

[Neoplatonist]

You’re misconstruing what I said. I said that God did not intervene through extraordinary means, which is the type of interventions you were referring to.

I said nothing about consolations of spirit which are not extraordinary explicitly speaking. Being spiritual in nature the consolations we receive often from God are so delicate that they are indiscernable and inexplicable.

We are called to such heights of prayer and holiness that even visions and locutions are entirely possible to those advanced enough in their prayer relationship with God. But again the key word is advanced, most people can’t get past the effort of divesting themselves of habitual venal sins to get beyond what Teresa of Avila describes as the first or second castle.

Perhaps I do, but none of the priests that you spoke with could recommend a SD that you could speak with? Perhaps a religious brother?

1.That makes it sound like God never offers exceptional help to the remedial students in the class, only the gifted/advanced ones. I’ll have to reflect on that.

2.Sadly no, they offered no recommendations, and the whole process was a disillusionment with my relationship to the church.

3.“Indiscernible consolations”? What good would it be if it were indiscernible? Maybe you mean His hand in them was indiscernible. Either way, as any of my deepest friends and advisors could assure you, there has been no dampening of the feeling of abandonment nor any dampening of my hope and work toward a day when there would be. If I seem to randomly find a nice, fat locust to eat during my time in the desert, that hardly seems cause to suddenly feel less alone. ?]

 

[Neoplatonist]

If it is all a function of me doing x and becoming more y in order to progress past some threshold, what’s with all the babbling in the Bible and in church about the shepherd leaving his flock to go out to find the one lost sheep? Shouldn’t we just retire that metaphor?

 

[davidv]

If it is all a function of me doing x and becoming more y in order to progress past some threshold, what’s with all the babbling in the Bible and in church about the shepherd leaving his flock to go out to find the one lost sheep?

What if its not a function of you doing x?

Why do you call it babbling? How could any explanation make it not babbling?

Shouldn’t we just retire that metaphor?

Why? What is wrong with it?

 

[Neoplatonist]

What if its not a function of you doing x?

Why do you call it babbling? How could any explanation make it not babbling?
Why? What is wrong with it?

I called it a function of me doing x in specific reply to the point that a given individual had not yet worked through their state of being tied to venial sins.

“Babbling” because it sounds more like the shepherd does nice things only for the sheep that has already achieved a certain level of spiritual progress. That’s a distinctly different model than the shepherd coming for the lost sheep. That sounds more like the shepherd waiting to guide the sheep once it has made it halfway to the barn on its own.

 

[Amandil]

1.That makes it sound like God never offers exceptional help to the remedial students in the class, only the gifted/advanced ones. I’ll have to reflect on that.

Again you’re misconstruing my words. By “advanced” is meant those who by cooperating with grace and through living a life of prayer and obedience are conformed more closely to Christ. There is absolutely no real obstacle for anyone, as you term the “remedial students”, to reach that height save themselves. Everyone is called to those heights of prayer, not just a few “gifted” people. But neither is it going to be given to you automatically, we all have to train our minds and purify our hearts and wills towards humility and obedience in faith.

Secondly, you have the Church, the Mass, the Sacraments, etc.; what more help would you or could you need?

2.Sadly no, they offered no recommendations, and the whole process was a disillusionment with my relationship to the church.

Perhaps that is your problem there. How do you expect to receive the help and the graces of God if you are “disillusioned” about the Church?

3.“Indiscernible consolations”? What good would it be if it were indiscernible?

Perhaps to try to get you to become more sensitive to them, IOW to pay attention.

Maybe you mean His hand in them was indiscernible. Either way, as any of my deepest friends and advisors could assure you, there has been no dampening of the feeling of abandonment nor any dampening of my hope and work toward a day when there would be. If I seem to randomly find a nice, fat locust to eat during my time in the desert, that hardly seems cause to suddenly feel less alone. ?]

Instead of looking for feelings perhaps this is God’s way of getting you instead to pray for an increase of faith. Faith in His presence regardless of your senses and faith in His Church. Just a thought.

 

[Neoplatonist]

Secondly, you have the Church, the Mass, the Sacraments, etc.; what more help would you or could you need?

Apparently more. I do those things with hope like a kid coming downstairs at Christmas morning.

Perhaps that is your problem there. How do you expect to receive the help and the graces of God if you are “disillusioned” about the Church?

I’m sorry, but give me a break. I fall and hurt myself and ask my mother for a bandage. She says no. That’s supposed to magically make me feel good or trust her more? I do it five times, with the same result, and I’m supposed to keep asking with an open heart? Then it turns out being frustrated or confused that she wouldn’t bring me a bandage guarantees she won’t?

Perhaps to try to get you to become more sensitive to them, IOW to pay attention.

Right, I’m just not listening hard enough. “You’re doing it wrong,” variation #13. Sounds like there should be the parable of “I will call, but very, very softly, and if the lost sheep is too bad at listening, then too bad. He’ll just have to stay lost until he becomes a better listener.”

Instead of looking for feelings perhaps this is God’s way of getting you instead to pray for an increase of faith. Faith in His presence regardless of your senses and faith in His Church. Just a thought.

Every day and counting. Apparently it’s possible to do that wrong, too, though.

If I can’t get help in healing a heart that feels alone in the desert because I am sad or frustrated about feeling alone in the desert, what’s the point? If I got over the sadness and frustration so that my prayers would help, I wouldn’t need the prayers in the first place. That’s like saying God won’t answer prayers to help relieve your fear of dying from cancer because your prayers are clouded by the fear of dying of cancer. ?]

 

[Amandil]

Apparently more. I do those things with hope like a kid coming downstairs at Christmas morning.

Then you’re going about it backwards. For starters you can’t get more than the infinite graces made available in the Eucharist, for the gift of the Eucharist is Christ Himself. The only obstacle to receiving all of the graces within that sacrament is you.

I’m sorry, but give me a break. I fall and hurt myself and ask my mother for a bandage. She says no. That’s supposed to magically make me feel good or trust her more? I do it five times, with the same result, and I’m supposed to keep asking with an open heart? Then it turns out being frustrated or confused that she wouldn’t bring me a bandage guarantees she won’t?

No I won’t give you a break and your anecdote here is frankly absurd. Bandages are in infinite supply in the sacrament of confession and they’re always available IF you avail yourself of it. And its not your mother’s fault if you continually rip the bandage off and pick at the scabs for your own amusement.

Right, I’m just not listening hard enough. “You’re doing it wrong,” variation #13. Sounds like there should be the parable of “I will call, but very, very softly, and if the lost sheep is too bad at listening, then too bad. He’ll just have to stay lost until he becomes a better listener.”

Every day and counting. Apparently it’s possible to do that wrong, too, though.

If I can’t get help in healing a heart that feels alone in the desert because I am sad or frustrated about feeling alone in the desert, what’s the point? If I got over the sadness and frustration so that my prayers would help, I wouldn’t need the prayers in the first place. That’s like saying God won’t answer prayers to help relieve your fear of dying from cancer because your prayers are clouded by the fear of dying of cancer. ?]

It seems apparent that you’re so insistent upon your own benevolence that any real critical and objective self-examination is irrelevant in your view.

If you’re of the opinion that somehow you’ve in your opinion racked up a good amount of cash in your spiritual bank account that you think God owes you something in return. That’s between you and God.

For my part I’ve done what I can but I don’t see how any more fruit can be had from further discussion.

I’ll keep you in my prayers.

 

[Neoplatonist]

Then you’re going about it backwards. For starters you can’t get more than the infinite graces made available in the Eucharist, for the gift of the Eucharist is Christ Himself. The only obstacle to receiving all of the graces within that sacrament is you.

No I won’t give you a break and your anecdote here is frankly absurd. Bandages are in infinite supply in the sacrament of confession and they’re always available IF you avail yourself of it. And its not your mother’s fault if you continually rip the bandage off and pick at the scabs for your own amusement.

It seems apparent that you’re so insistent upon your own benevolence that any real critical and objective self-examination is irrelevant in your view.

If you’re of the opinion that somehow you’ve in your opinion racked up a good amount of cash in your spiritual bank account that you think God owes you something in return. That’s between you and God.

For my part I’ve done what I can but I don’t see how any more fruit can be had from further discussion.

I’ll keep you in my prayers.

What mother would stand by while I pulled at my stitches? Seriously. I could screw up my life for eternity. She doesn’t “owe” me anything, but how can I make sense from my child’s mind of her act being one of love?

Never said I am opposed to self-examination, just that I seem to suck at it and have found no tutoring that doesn’t devolve into circular reasoning.

Well, I appreciate your efforts. I hope your prayers work more than our discussion did. Honestly.

 

[davidv]

What mother would stand by while I pulled at my stitches?

A mother who knows that suffering the consequences of ones choices is more loving that interfering.

Seriously. I could screw up my life for eternity. She doesn’t “owe” me anything, but how can I make sense from my child’s mind of her act being one of love?

Never said I am opposed to self-examination, just that I seem to suck at it and have found no tutoring that doesn’t devolve into circular reasoning.

Well, I appreciate your efforts. I hope your prayers work more than our discussion did. Honestly.