How could Mary be sinless when she herself proclaims God as her Saviour in Scripture?

[Nevermore22]

Here are the links to the CA tracts on Mary:

Immaculate Conception and Assumption
Mary: Ever Virgin
Mary: “Full of Grace”

They are also helpful.

IN Christ through Mary,
Nevermore

 

[PJM]

Originally Posted by Richard Kastner
Not what I think The bible says it.

Romans8
3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:"

MEANING SIMILAR BUT NOT IDENTICAL:thumbsup:

Becasue God [and make no error; JESUS IS GOD] is Perfect; GOD in an absolute sense COULD NOT SIN and be God; nor Coud God be “issued” through a sinful [or sinner] Mother.

Here is the meaning of “condemed sin in the flesh” FROM Haydocks Catholic Bible Commentary:

“Ver. 3. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, not in sinful flesh, (because the Son of God could not sin) hath now done; even of sin hath condemned sin in the flesh. That is, in or by his flesh, which was offered on the cross, hath condemned the tyrant sin, as guilty of so many sins, and hath destroyed his tyranny, where the apostle speaks of sin, as it were of a certain person or tyrant.”

God Bless you friend,
Pat

 

[JonathonofOhio]

Romans8
3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh

 

[mardela]

Hello,

Mary, what a blessed and wonderful woman in history and all time.
i don’t want to change the way people feel about Mary but the way people love and appreciate the Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus was the only human to have ever walked they earth that was sinless, divine, Holy. He is the Son of God and it was God’s will that Jesus being sinless would take all the sins of the world upon him, including the sins of Mary the mother of Jesus Christ the man. Remember that Jesus wasn’t created in Mary but he was created by God no telling how long before man was ever created. Adam is the father of sin and sin brings death. Now the Bible doesn’t tell us how everybody dies in the bible but we know that sin is death. In the same the bible doesn’t tell us wither Mary died or not but we know that sin brings death. As i post comments i will lean more to scripture than my opinion, because for a fact the Holy Bible never says Mary was any of the following: Holy, Sinless, righteous, prophetess or the mother of God which is different than the Mother of Jesus the man . The truth is the bible. now you might say that Jesus is God But we all believe in the Father, the Son and the Holy spirit so that being said it is not written that she is the mother of God. Take a close look at these scriptures.
Jhn 8:32-Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;

 

[JonathonofOhio]

Hello,
Jesus was the only human to have ever walked they earth that was sinless

Incorrect. Adam and Eve were both created without sin.
They later DID sin, but they did walk the earth while they were sinless.

The truth is the bible.

Incorrect. Jesus is the Truth (John 14:6). The bible tells us about the Truth.
The Spirit of Christ, which is the Holy Spirit and is God, is not contained within a book. It is contained within the members of the Body of Christ, which is the The Church (1 Corinthians 6:15-20)

 

[mardela]

Col 2:2- My purpose is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ,
1Jo 2:2- He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
1Jo 4:10- This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.

Mary was apart of the Whole world. you notice the Bible doesn’t say except for the mother of Jesus.

 

[KathleenGee]

Mary is the new Eve.

She is God’s creation, not one comprised of our debates, questioning, searchings.

At Mary’s conception, she had full grace that her whole being affirmed yes to God and to the coming Savior. Mary is a creature like us. But she is the highest of all God’s creation, and she was made to echo Christ’s mission…to save us from sin and death.

 

[mardela]

KathleenGee:

Pro 3:5- Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;
Where in the Bible did you get that information. The lord speaks the truth and his truth has been written in the Bible.

Col 2:4- I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments.
Col 2:8- See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.

 

[mardela]

Col 2:13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,

Note: it is not written except for Mary the mother of Jesus.

 

[JonathonofOhio]

Col 2:2- My purpose is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ,
1Jo 2:2- He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
1Jo 4:10- This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.

Mary was apart of the Whole world. you notice the Bible doesn’t say except for the mother of Jesus.

Basically this falls under the Fallacy Of Division: assuming that what is true of the whole is true of each constituent part. For example, human beings are made of atoms, and human beings are conscious, so atoms must be conscious. If the bible says the whole world has sinned, then every single person in the world is a sinner.

Therefore, you are asserting ipso facto all the infants ever to live in the world sinned, and that since Jesus was at one time part of this world (by your own reasoning), He sinned. Children are clearly not capable of personal sin. Jesus said: “Verily I say to you, Unless ye are converted and become as little children, ye will not at all enter into the kingdom of the heavens.” - Matthew 18:3…if children are sinners, then why would Jesus tell us to be like them (innocent and free of sin)?

 

[PJM]

=Truthinthename;8052297]In Revelation 5 it starts:

“And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.”

Now I suppose if Mary was sinless even if it was a gift from God therefore removing her original sin. At this point, wouldn’t they have said, “Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon…Oh wait! Sorry…we didn’t check the women Mary can do it yay!”

GREAT try

PLEASE look at my already posed POST #58.

No informed practicing catholic is putting Mary on a par with Christ! Can’t be done! That sais Mary nevertheless is the most 1. unique. 2. Blessed 3. Perfect [HAD TO BE in-order to be the Mother of a PERFECT GOD; 4. as a result attainr SPECIAL and UNIQUE honoes and privledges know by no-other human being EVER! So what the CC does id GIVE CREDIT WHERE CREDIT IS DUE:thumbsup:

God Bless you,
Pat

Proof that she was not without sin, and that she was not given a gift from God to remove her sin or else it would have applied here.

[/quote]

 

[JonathonofOhio]

KathleenGee:

Pro 3:5- Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;
Where in the Bible did you get that information. The lord speaks the truth and his truth has been written in the Bible.

Col 2:4- I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments.
Col 2:8- See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.

This is not on topic, but the first quote from Pro 3:5 is actually quite humorous, because you yourself lean on your own understanding instead of trusting in the Lord by listening to His Church on how one should interpret scripture. So what, are we all supposed to just leave His Church and lean on your now?

 

[mardela]

Remember one thing as I post these scriptures. I love and thank God for all the Saints and i love and appreciate what Mary roll she played in God good plan. I just want to point out that she should not be loved more than Jesus Christ, the Messiah the Door to Eternal Life. She is defiantly not equal to the Son of God.

For Mary to be sinless she would have had to be more powerful than Satan or the demons.
She would had to be equal to God and that is blasphemy.

Even the most righteous men and women in the Bible were never referred to as sinless.

 

[mardela]

Col 2:18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions.

Col 2:19 He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.

Col 2:20 Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules:

Col 2:21 “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”?

Col 2:22 These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings.

 

[JonathonofOhio]

Col 2:13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,

Note: it is not written except for Mary the mother of Jesus.

Nice Non Sequitur…something that just does not follow.

The apostle is talking to members of the Church he is addressing, and no where in this letter is he addressing anything specifically to Mary. Therefore, how can one logically assume anything like this since he obviously is not addressing the whole Church or the whole world?

By your own logic, Jesus apparently forgave all sins, even the sins of the false profits, the murders, the thieves, the fornicators, and even the unbelievers if this indeed implies that everyone was forgiven because everyone sinned. Apparently no one is going to hell then.

 

[JonathonofOhio]

Col 2:18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions.

Col 2:19 He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.

Col 2:20 Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules:

Col 2:21 “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”?

Col 2:22 These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings.

Again, this is not on topic. If you want to start a new topic, please do so. This forum has rules, and one is to limit the discussion to the topic of the thread.

 

[mardela]

1Ti 4:10 (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe

Who did he save? Sinners
notice it is written, “Savior of all men”
Was not written, “except for Mary”

God Bless Mary but the Lord of manipulation and deception is causing the World to not focus on the head of the body of Christ. Mary is a member of that body just as you and I.

 

[mardela]

JonathonofOhio:

Jhn 8:32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.

Notice that every person from the beginning of time to the end of time is referred to in this scripture. Including Mary.

 

[JonathonofOhio]

For Mary to be sinless she would have had to be more powerful than Satan or the demons.
She would had to be equal to God and that is blasphemy.

Even the most righteous men and women in the Bible were never referred to as sinless.

Reductio ad absurdum.

Adam and Eve were created without sin and so are all the animals and every single thing ever created. Does that make creation a blasphemy to God or equal to God? God created all things GOOD and that does not make everything equal to God.

Second, we are more powerful than Satan and the demons: Matthew 10: 1, James 4:7

Even many non-Catholic Christians believe that…here is a google search showing how some non-catholic sites prove it from the Bible. google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&safe=off&source=hp&q=power+over+demons&aq=f&aqi=g2g-m1g-b1&aql=t&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=a84042b25f6c52dc&biw=1920&bih=868

 

[Roy5]

Mary is honored by all Christians, so remember this when you read these postings.

1. Mary was blessed among women, true. Anyone selected to bear Jesus was blessed, of course.

 2. As pointed out already, 'all' have sinned and fallen short. No exception is made in scripture for Mary or anyone else.

 3. Mary is a central figure during the nativity, and she plays a key role again at the cross.

 4. However, Mary is only mentioned at two other places in the gospels. In both of these her appearance is fleeting and Jesus, in all honesty, seems to be even a bit dismissive of her. Matt, 12:46-50; John 2:4. On both occasions he has the opportunity to heap praise upon his mother and encourage others to do the same. It didn't happen.

 5. What always has struck me is that in all of Paul's epistles and those of others Mary is not mentioned once. If she were so central in the worship and theology of early Christians, why would she be completely omitted? This suggests to me that Mariology grew and grew in the centuries that followed.

 6. The dogma of the Immaculate Conception was not, of course, defined until 1864 by Pius IX, the author of the "Syllabus of Errors". It was when Pius IX was Pope, too, that papal infallibility in matters of faith and morals became a required dogma. There seems to be no Biblical basis for either of these doctrines. The Bible doesn't even mention the parents of Mary. 

 7. The dogma of the the Assumption was not defined until 1950 by Pius XII. There appears to be no Biblical basis for this either. Like the Immaculate Conception, it appears to be a theological construction - one doctrine piggybacking on another and another and another..

 There is much more that could be said - books, indeed - but no one is attacking Mary. She is revered for her relationship to Christ. The question is: has Mariology as it developed in the church been justified? So much of it - so many apparitions, for example - seem invalid. Even the church dismisses most of them as doubtful or false.

 But for those who venerate Mary, fine. For those who don't, that's okay, too. Why can't Christians agree to disagree and leave it at that? God bless them all.