How do Catholics explain 1 Timothy 2:5 and Hebrews 7:26?

[East_and_West]

Of course you insert a red herring because I never said the “woman” wasn’t Mary …

Please read my posts more carefully.

Ok. You admitt that the woman is Mary. Since you know that the chapter calls us her offspring and that, thus, she is our Mother. If you believe in the ten comandments then you must admitt that we must honor her. “Honor thy father and thy mother.” Glad you agree with us.

 

[dan1el]

Ok. You admitt that the woman is Mary. Since you know that the chapter calls us her offspring and that, thus, she is our Mother. If you believe in the ten comandments then you must admitt that we must honor her. “Honor thy father and thy mother.” Glad you agree with us.

On the contrary, “…whoever loves their mother more than Me is not worthy of Me”
“Obey your parents in the Lord” (your parents who begot you in the Lord), and the Fathers and Mothers in the Lord; in the faith.

 

[Sailka]

I’d actually like to know what praying for the dead is, since Paul mentioned it in the Bible - or was it Peter?

I do not believe the Bible to be entire; but a compilation of “parchments”; however, anything which could be considered Scripture must not contradict Scripture.

For instance, The Book of Enoch is a compilation of four books; the first two are alright, the third, I am not certain, but the fourth has that seems to be a direct contradiction to Scriptures:
The name Noah means “son of consolation”.
In Enoch 107, it says that Noah was named Noah for the reason that he would console the earth after it was destroyed by the flood.
However, Genesis 5:29 states that the reason for him being named this was because he would console his parents concerning the work of their hands, for the earth had been cursed.
That is an example of how something being considered as trustworthy (1 Th 5:21) must not contradict Scripture.

Also, I tested the Gospel of Peter, and found it to be nonsense, because it makes attempts to name the two witnesses of Rev 12 as being Enoch and Moses, (I know Enoch was one of them, I’m not sure if the other was Elijah or Moses) whereas it is clear that the two witnesses are Moses and Elijah, symbolically speaking of the Law and the Prophets, which the believers in Jesus Christ are houses of, as they keep the two greatest commandments, for “on these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.” They are called the two anointed ones who stand beside the Lord of all the earth in both Zech 4 and Rev 11, which came to pass in Mark 9:4
where you have the Lord of all the Earth (Jesus), and the two anointed ones (Moses and Elijah, symbols of the Law and the Prophets).

But, if Scripture is broken, as it is here, then obviously, the fourth Book of Enoch must be false, right? I have wondered about that…

God bless…

                                                                                                                                                                                          The  Book of Enoch was written 150  years after our Lord, and Rejected  as  false writings often in the first few Centuries, with  many other late writings long after Our Lord's time  like the 'gospel of Judas'   and 'gospel of Peter'                                                                                    
                                                                                           Gospel of Peter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 
                                                                                  
                                                                                           It  has not   been  part of the official  Cannon of the Bible, determined from hundreds of 'gospels/epistles'  Carefully examined by 3 Church Councils on Which of many   'books'  were  Authentic, in the late 4th Century.    Included the famed Council of Carthage   (387  AD)  with St Augustine  participating, and the Council of Rome Approving.    The  Cannon of Books of the  Bible   have been universally Accepted as The Bible until  Martin Luther removed 7  Books, now called by Protestants as the Apocrypha.

 

[East_and_West]

On the contrary, “…whoever loves their mother more than Me is not worthy of Me”
“Obey your parents in the Lord” (your parents who begot you in the Lord), and the Fathers and Mothers in the Lord; in the faith.

1. Strawman arguement. We don’t love Mary more than Christ. You guys just aren’t all that good at this.
2. Second, it looks like you are imposing your own personal interpretation on this comandment. Again, nice try but no cigar.

 

[Ignatius]

And how do you justify Mary queen of Heaven by the Scriptures? And, prove to me how Mary plays any role whatsoever in our Salvation?

I guess if you don’t count Jesus you can say that.
But you have to understand Catholic perspective. We believe that Jesus is the actual Son of God, born of the Virgin Mary. We believe that it is by the Blood of the Lamb (Jesus) that we are forgiven our sins (i.e. salvation).

If you believe the above, the rest is apparent.That Blood of the Lamb was the blood that was coursing through the veins, arteries and heart of the Virgin Mary while He was in her womb.

 

[dan1el]

1. Strawman arguement. We don’t love Mary more than Christ. You guys just aren’t all that good at this.
2. Second, it looks like you are imposing your own personal interpretation on this comandment. Again, nice try but no cigar.

I didn’t mean it in a sense that we shouldn’t honor her; just about honoring human parents in general.

I understand the Scripture - in the light of other Scripture; not my own thoughts.

As for the Book of Enoch, from what I understand (if I am not misunderstanding what I read), there have been Aramaic or Hebrew copies of the text found in the famous Dead Sea Caves.
What makes you think it was written in 150AD?

Once again, I do not subscribe to Protestant nor Catholic dogma, just what ever the Book says; so I am open to hearing what you have to say - and anyone else who worships God in spirit - and in truth.

Where would I be without you, my brothers? God bless…

 

[dan1el]

I guess if you don’t count Jesus you can say that.
But you have to understand Catholic perspective. We believe that Jesus is the actual Son of God, born of the Virgin Mary. We believe that it is by the Blood of the Lamb (Jesus) that we are forgiven our sins (i.e. salvation).

If you believe the above, the rest is apparent.That Blood of the Lamb was the blood that was coursing through the veins, arteries and heart of the Virgin Mary while was in her womb.

What makes you think that God didn’t create an entire human being; what makes you think that any humanity was taken from Mary at all?
Personally, I have to do more research on this, since I don’t know much of the science of a human being growing in the womb…

 

[Ignatius]

What makes you think that God didn’t create an entire human being; what makes you think that any humanity was taken from Mary at all?
Personally, I have to do more research on this, since I don’t know much of the science of a human being growing in the womb…

Jesus is begotten not made, He is one in being (i.e. consubstantial) with the Father. When you do the research, you’ll find that All of Our Lords humanity comes from Mary.

 

[dan1el]

Yet no one has answered me on the wise that Peter himself, who you “claim” as your “father” of your church, himself had to be corrected by Paul the Apostle, a man who never walked with Jesus, but to whom Jesus was revealed through the “Sola Scriptures”: “For I did not consult with flesh and blood…”

What do you say about Peter having to be rebuked and corrected by Paul; that he was “to be condemned” Gal 2:11 ? If he was the father of your church, do you think that you will do better than he; that the RCC - or any other “establishment” - is capable of making mistakes? The Kingdom of Heaven is within; everything without is under renovation.

All I hear is silence…

My brothers, isn’t it human to err? We aren’t perfect yet - when we see Jesus, then we will be as He is.

 

[dan1el]

Jesus is begotten not made, He is one in being (i.e. consubstantial) with the Father. When you do the research, you’ll find that All of Our Lords humanity comes from Mary.

Is it hard to believe that God would create an entire human body, as He did with Adam? As I will share here, I do not think it is…

The God aspect of Jesus is the Son/Word aspect; this Word was made flesh John 1:14, made in the “likeness of sinful flesh”, yet without sin. For this reason, His flesh couldn’t have come from Mary, because her flesh was sinful, as I have stated before. But wasn’t God the one who created the sinless flesh of Adam and Eve in the first place? What makes it so hard to believe that God would do this again? Just as when Adam was created, he was created in the image of God (God is both male and female; one of His names is ‘the many-breasted one’) and his wife was within him; Jesus, the last Adam, had the Bride within Him John 3:29, and after Jesus was put into a deep sleep (death), according to the archetype, His wife was fashioned of His own substance.

 

[Sailka]

What do you say about Peter having to be rebuked and corrected by Paul; that he was “to be condemned” Gal 2:11 ? If he was the father of your church, do you think that you will do better than he; that the RCC - or any other “establishment” - is capable of making mistakes? The Kingdom of Heaven is within; everything without is under renovation.

All I hear is silence…

My brothers, isn’t it human to err? We aren’t perfect yet - when we see Jesus, then we will be as He is.

                                                                                                                                                                                          :extrahappy:       Hope  I don't scare you shouting the Lord's Truth to you!  :D 
                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                           Our  Lord told us that  Peter  was the  Rock He is building His Church on, and giving  him  the keys to heaven.       Matt 16:18-19.
                                                                                           Its  not what we think. It's what our Lord  told us, and has proven in 2000  years.

Am soon publishing that the Catholic Church is the most ideal/idealistic organization on earth. Definitive humility, always service to others, for no or tiny pay, 6 or 7 days a week for Catholic clergy. Over a Billion Catholics, over 300 million Orthodox/Eastern, of 2 billion Christians is 70 % of all Christians, despite Media suggesting the opposite, jealous of our Ideal Church.

And the Church has changed no basic dogma in 2,000 years. Still operates as in first century, with the local Bishop being responsible for all locally.

And the Church has not changed, or needed to change fundamentally in 2000 years. Are you aware that the Novus Ordo Vatican II Mass is the reconstructed essentials if the First 2 Centuries Last Supper feast? The sign of peace was begun by the Apostles to bring unity to the congrgation?

Please name one/any fundamental error in the Catholic Church. Pedophelia? Was less than 1% of All Catholic clergy in last 60 years, 40 Years ago. And the Church stopped it, when discovered was mental Illness, criminal[/LIST
Heaven is within? That Is a new one. Only universally known heaven is with the Lord/God
Live in Jesus. No future in ourselves . Been tried often. Tony

 

[Sailka]

                                                                                                                                                                                          :extrahappy:       Hope  I don't scare you shouting the Lord's Truth to you!  :D 
                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                           Our  Lord told us that  Peter  was the  Rock He is building His Church on, and giving  him  the keys to heaven.       Matt 16:18-19.
                                                                                           Its  not what we think. It's what our Lord  told us, and has proven in 2000  years.

Am soon publishing that the Catholic Church is the most ideal/idealistic organization on earth. Definitive humility, always service to others, for no or tiny pay, 6 or 7 days a week for Catholic clergy. Over a Billion Catholics, over 300 million Orthodox/Eastern, of 2 billion Christians is 70 % of all Christians, despite Media suggesting the opposite, jealous of our Ideal Church.

And the Church has changed no basic dogma in 2,000 years. Still operates as in first century, with the local Bishop being responsible for all locally.

And the Church has not changed, or needed to change fundamentally in 2000 years. Are you aware that the Novus Ordo Vatican II Mass is the reconstructed essentials if the First 2 Centuries Last Supper feast? The sign of peace was begun by the Apostles to bring unity to the congrgation?

Please name one/any fundamental error in the Catholic Church. Pedophelia? Was less than 1% of All Catholic clergy in last 60 years, 40 Years ago. And the Church stopped it, when discovered was mental Illness, criminal[/LIST
Heaven is within? That Is a new one. Only universally known heaven is with the Lord/God
Live in Jesus. No future in ourselves . Been tried often. Tony

 

[dan1el]

God doesn’t respect organizations; God respects His Word. God doesn’t change - and neither does His Word - at the whim of any organization; so if any organization, including the Catholic Church, ever said or acted like something was God’s words - when they weren’t - the said organization would stand in the wrong. Case in point: Gal 2:11, when Peter had to be reproved for the error of his lifestyle.

“The Kingdom of Heaven is within you.” Luke 17:21
“…you are the temple of the Holy Spirit…”

There is a difference between “looking within” and the Kingdom being within:

“A plan in the heart of a man is like deep water,But a man of understanding draws it out” Proverbs 20:5

As it is written, we are to remain “at the doors”; not to look within the inner rooms Matt 24:26 for Jesus; but rather to continue to bring forth the Kingdom of Heaven to the earth by acting out of the Spirit:
“…but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.” John 4:14

In this manner, the earth will be flooded with the knowledge of God:
“…for the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.”

Remember that just as there are waters above which rain down, there are also springs of water in the earth, as well. In this sense, the return of Jesus Christ will be as the days of Noah,
“on the same day all the fountains of the great deep burst open, and the floodgates of the sky were opened.”

proving that the Kingdom, yes, is above, but also within us.

Substantiating Scripture is in Daniel 2:45, when the rock is taken out of a Mountain (and the Mountain remained there) yet the rock also became another mountain in the earth.

 

[Peter_J]

Sorry, still please answer the question, not divert the attention.

Funny how no one mentions anything until they are hit with a question they don’t want to answer. People have said MANY demeaning things about me on this board, insulting me, saying I am stupid, that I am misled, that I lack intelligence, etc., etc., etc. and no one has said anything to them on behalf of me… wonder why?
I was just showing the ludicrousness of your thought that the Church is incapable of error, which history itself proves to be false.

Hi dan1el,

First off it’s been said before, but I think it bears repeating, that if you compare various discussion forums on the internet, you’ll probably find that the way Protestants are treated on CAF is as good as (or better than) the way Catholics are treated on most Protestant fora.

and no one has said anything to them on behalf of me… wonder why?

I know, personally, I have many times found myself in a situation where in principle I ought to stand up for a Protestant (or Orthodox) poster who’s being treated badly, but don’t out of practical considerations. (One thing to keep in mind is that often someone who starts out by stepping into such a situation with the best of intentions, eventually gets themselves into a brawl and possibly in trouble with the moderators. Plus, even if it doesn’t turn out that way, what one persons see as “fairness toward Protestants” might be construed by another as lack of commitment to Catholicism.)

It’s not exactly something I’m proud of, but it’s the way it is. To quote the song Do They Know It’s Christmas?

Well tonight thank God it’s them instead of you.

 

[Sailka]

Sorry, still please answer the question, not divert the attention.

Funny how no one mentions anything until they are hit with a question they don’t want to answer. People have said MANY demeaning things about me on this board, insulting me, saying I am stupid, that I am misled, that I lack intelligence, etc., etc., etc. and no one has said anything to them on behalf of me… wonder why?
I was just showing the ludicrousness of your thought that the Church is incapable of error, which history itself proves to be false.

                                                                                           Sorry if anyone was out ofline demeaning you, brother. Is serious wrong according to the Lord, and Church.   We are told to Respect everyone.     A few don't act Christian, and throw their own pesonal bias/insecurity into chats. 
                                                                                 The Formatting   info was technical, from staff.  I have received same several times.  We welcome your ideas, because we All learn, think things out from other ideas.                                      God Bless  You.     Tony

 

[Sailka]

Christian brother in Christ Sola Scriptura, # 412

This is what Irenaeus did when he put the Marian freight train in motion. Slowly, one faulty doctrine after the other, you’ve built Mary up to a role alien to the Gospel writers, Paul, and the Apostolic Fathers. If Mary were the queen of heaven, a co-mediator and co-redeemer, the Ark of the Covenant, etc. you would think Paul would have referred to her as something more than “woman” – you would think the Apostolic Fathers would have mentioned her more than simply to note the virgin birth. You would think John (who was her caretaker and lived far longer than Paul or Peter) might have written a word or two about Mary if she were to occupy such a critical role in the economy of salvation. It is clear to anyone without a vested interest in defending this fallacious doctrine that Mary was none of these things.
It was not Ireneaus who started the “train” of the Mother of Our Lord. Everyone had highest appreciation, respect for her From Apostolic times until the last couple hundred years. Did you know that the Reformers, Luther, Calvin, and most continued highest Devotion for the blessed Virgin?
Don’t forget history, brother. Our Church remembers from the writing of the New Testament, by our Church Fathers, and details like the Apostle Luke, as I recall, taking care of the Blessed Virgin at Ephesus. Her stone home is a major visitation site by all faiths, Muslim as well as Catholic. It is a major world historic site, that most visitors, including non-Catholics report feeling a great peace, calm visting.
Also, the earliest Christian paintings have been attributed to Apostle Luke, the first traditionally being the famed, oft copied “Alpha/Omega” in corners Mary holding the small adultish looking Saviour.
And my Mom had a verified medical miracle cure a year before I was born, when she returned to a famed Statue of Mary in Budapest (1940) to “apologize”, place flowers, the day after she got angry at her Taxi being blocked by a Marian Procession.

And tens of other verified medically miracle cures with Marian involvement, at Lourdes, Fatima, etc. And Catholic Church teaches that only our Lord/God can perform Miracles, sometimes using human or saintly means.

                                                                                           Please don't forget history, or   tradition, or reality.                      
                                                                                  Live in  Jesus, brother. Not  the Holy Book Only, which says that Most things were not written imn it.  That is why  Our  Lord   established His Church,  to teach, preach,   And being THE  earthly   source of   The  Truth:   1 Timothy 3:15

 

[CentralFLJames]

The bottom line is the quote from the saint above simply tells me the church created an erroneous doctrine to refute anther (albeit more) erroneous doctrine – when there was no need to do such a thing. Mary and Jesus are not both the Ark – there is no co-mediation relationship. Mary has no role in the economy of salvation. She was blessed among women – but she was a “woman” all the same.

And Jesus, “Son of Man”, was afterall just a mere “man” and being so meek in nature had no pennies to give in the economy of salvation.

It sounds to me like you have a very impoverished view of Christianity. You might be able to sell your ideas south of the boarder through a marquee of ‘class or gender demagoguery’ but I doubt anyone with intelligence and a mite of spiritual coin will buy into it. If you set up church there just don’t expect to be able to make a living off the collection basket pastor…

James

 

[Sailka]

And Jesus, “Son of Man”, was afterall just a mere “man” and being so meek in nature had no pennies to give in the economy of salvation.

It sounds to me like you have a very impoverished view of Christianity. You might be able to sell your ideas south of the boarder through a marquee of ‘class or gender demagoguery’ but I doubt anyone with intelligence and a mite of spiritual coin will buy into it. If you set up church there just don’t expect to be able to make a living off the collection basket pastor…

James

Never attack another, or demean them! Is AntiChrist, anti-Church to. And violation of many tos also. Lord, Church always taught respect for Every One. Correct errors with facts only. Vivat Jesus. Tony :tsktsk: :crossrc:

 

[Sailka]

This is what Irenaeus did when he put the Marian freight train in motion. Slowly, one faulty doctrine after the other, you’ve built Mary up to a role alien to the Gospel writers, Paul, and the Apostolic Fathers. If Mary were the queen of heaven, a co-mediator and co-redeemer, the Ark of the Covenant, etc. you would think Paul would have referred to her as something more than “woman” – you would think the Apostolic Fathers would have mentioned her more than simply to note the virgin birth. You would think John (who was her caretaker and lived far longer than Paul or Peter) might have written a word or two about Mary if she were to occupy such a critical role in the economy of salvation. It is clear to anyone without a vested interest in defending this fallacious doctrine that Mary was none of these things.

                                                                                           *Please see reply at # 490     Tony*

 

[CentralFLJames]

Never attack another, or demean them! Is AntiChrist, anti-Church to. And violation of many tos also. Lord, Church always taught respect for Every One. Correct errors with facts only. Vivat Jesus. Tony :tsktsk:

Oh settle down Tony - this was very mild. I was just pointing out how foolish he was making himself look with his silly ideas. I was embarrassed for him.

James