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Arglaze
Guest
I learned this from this forum. That is the whole point, I’m asking Catholics, and that’s what they told me. The Pope is under the protection of the Holy Spirit in matters of doctrine, faith, etc., from saying, committing, or teaching error.
I googled info about the Pope’s infallibility also and I found even more information.
Another Catholic in a forum regarding Pope’s infallibility wrote: "What Vatican I specifically contributed to the question is the fact that the Pope can define a doctrine infallibly on his own authority. In other words, if the Pope defined a doctrine without consulting the bishops, he would still be infallible. In actual practice this is improbable, and both Pius IX, in defining the Immaculate Conception, and Pius XII, in the defining the Assumption, took pains to state that they had consulted all the bishops."
Both the immaculate conception and the assumption are non Scriptural doctrines, speculations of church men that never met Jesus, Mary or the Apostles.
Since this is not biblical, you can’t expect a Scripture reading Christian to simply accept those doctrines without any Biblical proof or reason for them to even exist.
Mary (rest in peace) was not immaculately conceived nor was assumed into heaven because neither Jesus, nor the apostles taught that.
Mary, who was a humble and strong woman, died like any other apostle. Working hard for the church. And the fact that the Scriptures have no record about her death is not enough to reach to the conclusion that she was “assumed” just because she was Jesus’ mother. Joseph raised Jesus too, and very little emphasis is placed on the man that God entrusted his Son to.
No Scriptural record simply means that she was valued in the church as much as anyone else in the church. She didn’t consider herself better, superior, or less sinful than anyone else. The Bible concludes all under sin, that the promise of Jesus be revealed.
Her death would be valued as much as anyone else. That’s what the Apostolic Church was like. Everyone mattered.
No record of Mary after Jesus left earth and she was in the upper room. And yet it speaks about Dorcas, faithful woman of God that everyone in the church prayed for so God would bring her back to life and extend her life a little more.
Catholics give more dues to Mary than God, the Scriptures or even Jesus does. God had a mission for her, and she delivered. Her and Joseph her husband played their roles.
Popes can create all the doctrines they want, but the followers of God will search all things whether they be true.
Acts 17:11-12
“… in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. Therefore many of them believed…”
Mind you, they were hearing the words directly from the Apostles, and even the Apostles they put to the test.
Even Jesus said in John 5:39
“Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.”
Catholics should believe the Popes only after searching if the things they say are according to the Scriptures. If they are not according to the Scriptures, then it should be abolished.
Unless Catholics believe the Word of the Pope is equivalent to the Word of God, in which case he can say whatever he wants, and they must accept it regardless of whether it is Scriptural or not.
I humbly invite you to challenge the doctrines of your own church through the Word of God. Truth will always triumph over error, and challenging and searching for them in the Scriptures will only draw you closer to God. The idea that only Priests should be allowed to interpret and teach doctrine is not biblical either.
The tittle “Roman Catholic Church” means nothing to God, just like “Seventh Day Adventist Church” means nothing. But those who hear the Words of God and follow it, that is what matters to God. We are all part of the Christian Church. Apostasy is not the result of separating from the church, apostasy is separating from the Word of God.
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RobGentner
Guest
Popes can create all the doctrines they want, but the followers of God will search all things whether they be true.
Popes can only create doctrines for true believers. Counterfeit denominations don’t have to believe the pope. We don’t actually care what you do, although we do have a couple of suggestions!Just bring back our bible and write your own!
“Followers of God” is that a new church you founded this week? Cute name!. Are you the Pope for it? Will you still use the twisted Bible?
Catholics should believe the Popes only after searching if the things they say are according to the Scriptures. If they are not according to the Scriptures, then it should be abolished.
Oh, you don’t understand do you? Sorry! You aren’t a member of the real church, nor the Pope so you have no authority to tell us to do anything.
How about telling that stuff to your “Followers of God” Group? Are there more members than just you?
Unless Catholics believe the Word of the Pope is equivalent to the Word of God, in which case he can say whatever he wants, and they must accept it regardless of whether it is Scriptural or not.
Yes, When He speaks infallabilty ~ It is the “word of God!”
I humbly invite you to challenge the doctrines of your own church through the Word of God.
I humbly ask you to mind your own business!
Truth will always triumph over error, and challenging and searching for them in the Scriptures will only draw you closer to God.
AMEN! And how do you find out about the truth? Easy! The real church has been holding firm to the truth for 2,000 years, not 400 or 33 or one year. We maintain the Truth as Jesus commanded. Want the truth follow the RCC!
The idea that only Priests should be allowed to interpret and teach doctrine is not biblical either.
Agree, but since they have apostolic succession behind them, they can correct our faulty interpretations. it is their job just like Jesus did to His diciples. Mark 14: 22- 26 is one example! /COLOR]
The tittle “Roman Catholic Church” means nothing to God, just like “Seventh Day Adventist Church” means nothing. But those who hear the Words of God and follow it, that is what matters to God.
We are all part of the Christian Church.
My friend, Jesus did not need or desire 33,000 denominations following 2,341 different doctrines. I am no rocket scientist but I do know that the original is called REAL ~ copies are called fakes, counterfeit or imitation. That is in all things. Money; Ice Cream; religions beliefs!
So my friend, if you aren’t a member of Jesus’ original church founded 2,000 years ago, following His bible as understood and interpreted by His church, you can’t call yourself fully a Children of God. Sorry! You may actually be a step child of Jesus’ enemy. He goes around like a lion, fooling and tricking good and holy people to follow him rather than follow Jesus!
Apostasy **is not the result **of separating from the church, apostasy is separating from the Word of God.
I agree! Apostasy is the actual seprating from the church! Apostasy inobedientiæ is disobedience to a command given by lawful authority, The Catholic Church!
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Sailka
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I hear footsteps down the hall. Keys headed this way. :frighten: Hope he forgot the Lock!831 ~ 169 to go!
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jfallaw
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I would answer the same way I have answered others- If you believe the Bible is the sum of God’s Word, then you will never understand as we do. Sorry. But that’s the plain, simple truth. We believe that God spoke, and continues to speak, through the leaders that Christ appointed over the church, and their valid successors. There is absolutely no point in arguing with a Catholic from a Sola Scriptura standpoint.
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RobGentner
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Hi jfallaw, :tiphat:
Excellent Post!
I just got this: I love it!: All I could add is AMEN!
Church is not Wal-Mart
[NB. Permission to repost/copy with proper attribution is given.]
- The Roman Catholic Church isn’t WalMart or Burger King; it’s the Body of Christ.
employees; we are members of the Body of Christ.
3). The doctrine and dogma of the Catholic Church are not consumer products that the Church’s employees sell to those who want them; Catholic doctrine and dogma express the unchanging truth of the faith.
4). Life in a Catholic parish is not a trip to Disney Land or Target or McDonald’s where your consumer needs and whims are catered to by the whimpering clergy and lay staff; parish life is the life of Christ for the local Catholic family.
5). You do not come into the Catholic Church b/c you like the building better than you like the Methodist chapel; or because the priest at the Catholic parish is cuter than the Baptist preacher; or because you heard that the homilies are shorter at St. Bubba’s by the Lake than they are at the Unitarian Church. You come into the Catholic Church because you believe that the Catholic faith is the truth of the gospel taught by Christ himself and given to his apostles.
6). Leaving the Catholic Church because a priest was mean to you, or because sister whacked you with a ruler, or because the church secretary looked at you funny is as stupid as giving up on the truths of math because you hate your high school algebra teacher. Why would anyone let a crazy priest or a cranky nun or anyone else for the matter drive you out of the faith you believe is true? My only conclusion: you never thought it was true to begin with; or, you have a favorite sin the Church teaches against and crazy priests and cranky nuns is as good an excuse as any to leave and pursue your sin all the while feeling justified because Father and/or Sister are such jerks.
7). Anyone who comes in the Catholic Church thinking that they will find clouds of angels at Mass dressed as parishioners; hordes of perfect saints kneeling for communion; seminaries packed with angelic young men burning to be priests; a parish hall stacked to the ceiling with morally pure people eager to serve; and a priest without flaw or blemish, well, you’re cracked and you probably need to go back and try again. Telling Catholics that they aren’t perfect makes as much sense as telling fish they’re wet. We know already. Move on.
8). Of the hundreds of priests and religious I know, I know two whocould count as saints right now. The rest of us are deeply flawed, impure, struggling creatures who know all too well that we fail utterly to meet the basic standards of holiness. For that matter: so do you. Get in line.
9). The Catholic Church owes no one a revision of her doctrine or dogma. She didn’t change to save most of Europe from becoming Protestant, why would you imagine that she would change just to get you in one of her parishes?
10). If you want to become Catholic, do it. But do it because you think the Church teaches the true faith. If a cranky priest on a blogsite is enough to keep you from embracing the truth of the faith, then two things are painfully clear: 1) you do not believe the Church teaches the faith; 2) and you care more about expresssing your hurt consumer feelings than you do for your immortal soul.
Fr. Philip, OP
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jfallaw
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Nice!Hi jfallaw, :tiphat:
Excellent Post!
I just got this: I love it!: All I could add is AMEN!
Church is not Wal-Mart
[NB. Permission to repost/copy with proper attribution is given.]
2). Catholic priests, nuns, sisters/brothers and laity aren’t
- The Roman Catholic Church isn’t WalMart or Burger King; it’s the Body of Christ.
employees; we are members of the Body of Christ.
3). The doctrine and dogma of the Catholic Church are not consumer products that the Church’s employees sell to those who want them; Catholic doctrine and dogma express the unchanging truth of the faith.
4). Life in a Catholic parish is not a trip to Disney Land or Target or McDonald’s where your consumer needs and whims are catered to by the whimpering clergy and lay staff; parish life is the life of Christ for the local Catholic family.
5). You do not come into the Catholic Church b/c you like the building better than you like the Methodist chapel; or because the priest at the Catholic parish is cuter than the Baptist preacher; or because you heard that the homilies are shorter at St. Bubba’s by the Lake than they are at the Unitarian Church. You come into the Catholic Church because you believe that the Catholic faith is the truth of the gospel taught by Christ himself and given to his apostles.
6). Leaving the Catholic Church because a priest was mean to you, or because sister whacked you with a ruler, or because the church secretary looked at you funny is as stupid as giving up on the truths of math because you hate your high school algebra teacher. Why would anyone let a crazy priest or a cranky nun or anyone else for the matter drive you out of the faith you believe is true? My only conclusion: you never thought it was true to begin with; or, you have a favorite sin the Church teaches against and crazy priests and cranky nuns is as good an excuse as any to leave and pursue your sin all the while feeling justified because Father and/or Sister are such jerks.
7). Anyone who comes in the Catholic Church thinking that they will find clouds of angels at Mass dressed as parishioners; hordes of perfect saints kneeling for communion; seminaries packed with angelic young men burning to be priests; a parish hall stacked to the ceiling with morally pure people eager to serve; and a priest without flaw or blemish, well, you’re cracked and you probably need to go back and try again. Telling Catholics that they aren’t perfect makes as much sense as telling fish they’re wet. We know already. Move on.
8). Of the hundreds of priests and religious I know, I know two whocould count as saints right now. The rest of us are deeply flawed, impure, struggling creatures who know all too well that we fail utterly to meet the basic standards of holiness. For that matter: so do you. Get in line.
9). The Catholic Church owes no one a revision of her doctrine or dogma. She didn’t change to save most of Europe from becoming Protestant, why would you imagine that she would change just to get you in one of her parishes?
10). If you want to become Catholic, do it. But do it because you think the Church teaches the true faith. If a cranky priest on a blogsite is enough to keep you from embracing the truth of the faith, then two things are painfully clear: 1) you do not believe the Church teaches the faith; 2) and you care more about expresssing your hurt consumer feelings than you do for your immortal soul.
Fr. Philip, OP
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Arglaze
Guest
The statement just shows a preconceived idea of what I said, or it’s just deliberate.
I stand on the Rock of God’s Word, not on the title that you claim is the church Christ founded. The RCC leadership departed from God long ago by inventing their own doctrines under the excuse of the infallibility, which is itself is an unscriptural truth. All churches that God has founded from the beginning of time have been subject to teaching error as God given truth at some point or another. If that were not true, then there would have been no need for the Christian church to even exist. Infallibility is unscriptural and a lie.
Infallibility contradicts itself. In matters of doctrines and faith, the truth and teaching that the RCC claims are heresy came from members of the Catholic church itself. If infallibility is true, then people like Martin Luther in teaching faith are infallible, because he we church leadership also as a priest.
Now, you may say, well a priest teaching something contrary to the popular knowledge immediately separates himself from the church, but what then happens to the truth of infallibility? It’s obviously a subjective doctrine that subjectively chooses who has a right to dictate what truth is and what isn’t.
Was the Holy Spirit given to Peter only or to all the church? God can use anyone, and the only thing that keeps the Truth impecable is the Word of God. Everyone is tested by the Word of God.
Rob, you accuse me of taking the Catholic churche’s Bible and that i should write my own? Isn’t it ironic you use the Hebrew Scriptures? The Word of God belongs to everyone. Hindering others from having it or reading it, is the work of Satan.
Parable of the seeds. Some fell by the wayside and birds came and ate them. Jesus said the seed is the Word of God, and the birds taking them away is the devil taking it from them. Who inspired your comments or moved you to say that Rob?
I humbly request you reconsider your words in light of what Jesus’ words teach and don’t make attempts to take God’s word away from anyone. And by the way, I am minding my business, the Gospel.
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Peter_J
Guest
Correct, but I want to emphasize to you that this is a conditional statement – “if the Pope [dogmatically] defined a doctrine”.
I think you misjudge us just a little. Consider this quote from Cardinal Newman:
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RobGentner
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“Apostasy is the actual separating from the church!”
The statement just shows a preconceived idea of what I said, or it’s just deliberate.
“It is from a dictionary” Duhhh, So yea! iI is a preconceived and “Correct” idea! (Some people are tooo easy! )
I stand on the Rock of God’s Word, not on the title that you claim is the church Christ founded.
Did you change your new church from the “Followers of God” to “The Rock of God’s Word?” Don’t forget to inform the IRS they get angry if you don’t!
The RCC leadership departed from God long ago by inventing their own doctrines under the excuse of the infallibility, which is itself is an unscriptural truth.
Dope, That is not true and you saying it doesn’t make it any truer. it makes it just your opinion and who cares what you think actually? Not the real church!
All churches that God has founded from the beginning of time have been subject to teaching error as God given truth at some point or another. If that were not true, then there would have been no need for the Christian church to even exist.
We let God do what he wants. Don’t you understand He is God, not you?
Infallibility is unscriptural and a lie. Infallibility contradicts itself.
Since we wrote the scriptures in the first place all we had to do was say we were infalliable and you would have bought that? What about Jesus saying to eat His Body and Drink His blood? Do yuo do that? Nope, not unless you are Catholic, sorry!
In matters of doctrines and faith, the truth and teaching that the RCC claims are heresy came from members of the Catholic church itself.
Let me first tell you this is from the dictionary so you aren’t confused like you were with Apostasy “For a heresy to exist there must be an authoritative system of dogma designated as orthodox, such as those proposed by Catholicism” So if you go against the CC’s .It is called a Heresy!
If infallibility is true, then people like Martin Luther in teaching faith are infallible, because he we church leadership also as a priest.
The Pope is infallible not priests! Where did you ever get the twisted Idea that all priests and followers afre infalliable. Talk to Justasking4 at least they understand the Catholic church. They are still wrong but they do understand what we teach!
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Arglaze
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I hope you read what your peer (Rob) here says:
“The Pope is infallible” according to the RCC.
For Catholics, the Pope’s word is equal to the Word of God. And as such, they must obey him to the letter, and he can rewrite whatever he wants.
Now, do you believe what I say when I say that this is what Catholics believe? or do you still think I made it up?.
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RobGentner
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Now, you may say, well a priest teaching something contrary to the popular knowledge immediately separates himself from the church, but what then happens to the truth of infallibility?
Now, I may ask, do you know anything about the Catholic Church at all? :whacky: Your post is almost to dumb to answer, but I will type slowly for you.Papal infallibility is the dogma in Cathololic theology that, by action of the Holy Spirit, the Pope is preserved from even the possibility of error%between%when he solemnly declares or prommulgates to the Church a dogmatic teaching on faith or morals as being contained in divine revelation, or at least being intimately connected to divine revelation. It is also taught that the Holy Spirit works in the body of the Church to ensure that dogmatic teachings proclaimed to be infallible will be received by all Catholics.
It’s obviously a subjective doctrine that subjectively chooses who has a right to dictate what truth is and what isn’t.
“You” are obviously a subjective doctrine!The Pope and The Holy Spirit are the only ones that Jesus permits to tell us the truth. Not you my friend!
Was the Holy Spirit given to Peter only or to all the church? God can use anyone, and the only thing that keeps the Truth impecable is the Word of God. Everyone is tested by the Word of God.
Oh, your new church is going to be a testing church? God does use “everyone” . Some just as examples of what not to become!
Rob, you accuse me of taking the Catholic churche’s Bible and that i should write my own? Isn’t it ironic you use the Hebrew Scriptures?
Well where did you get it? Your church wasn’t around 2,000 years ago like ine was! Duhhhh. And why is it ironic that we use the Hebrew scriptures?, The Hebrews are our “Older” Brothers. Jesus came to fullfil the OT, not to replace it! The first christians were all Jews didn’t you know that Our forefathers in the Catholic Church were all Jews! Thank goodness we don’t have to do that “cutting” thing!
The Word of God belongs to everyone. Hindering others from having it or reading it, is the work of Satan.
That is so true! :clapping: But, so is distorting what it actually said and what ithe words actually mean. That is how the devil gains souls one new denomination at a time.
Of course, only God’s real church, lead by Jesus Himself, can interpret the Bible correctly.The CC never changes it teachings. 2,000 years old and still going strong! Praise God!
The Devil makes his imitation and counterfeit churches doubt and distort the truths that God wants everyone to know and understand. Preachers who change the word of God to suit their own needs and desires are servants of the evil one! You finally understand! You were following the Devil! GREAT!
Parable of the seeds. Some fell by the wayside and birds came and ate them. Jesus said the seed is the Word of God, and the birds taking them away is the devil taking it from them.
Yes You do understand! Excellent! . People learn about Jesus, Thye become members of the real church. Then because their belief system is weak, the “birds” (Other religions) come and eats them.
Who inspired your comments or moved you to say that Rob?
The Holy Spirit?
I humbly request you reconsider your words in light of what Jesus’ words teach and don’t make attempts to take God’s word away from anyone.
Ihumbly request that you open your eyes. I would never do that my friend! What I am trying to do is show you the correct path to Jesus, and what he actually teaches. I am trying to save your soul, not stop you from reading a stupid book! Jesus is God, not the Bible! The things that the bible reveals as explained by the CC are sacred not the book itself! ~
And by the way, I am minding my business, the Gospel
I missed that part of the Gospel, In what verse did it say Arglaze will come and attempt to lead followers of the true church into eternal danmation with him?
I truely love you my brother in Christ. Come follow Jesus! He will set you free!
God Bless
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Arglaze
Guest
My friend, if the Pope is infallible, then his word is equal in authority to the Word of God. Do you understand what you are claiming here? You are making a man’s word equal to God’s Word. Am I the only one who sees this? I simply can’t buy that doctrine, no man’s word is infallible.
Do you still want to take away the Scriptures from me because I don’t agree with you? Who inspired those words, the trying to take the Scriptures away?
If you were a christian, you’d take at least those words back.
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Arglaze
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Rob.
Who created the doctrine of Papal infallibility? God?
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RobGentner
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Arglaze You put words in my mouth that the devil placed in yours. Notr surprising, that is what exactly what all Protestants do to the truth. To include Jesus’ words also. You twist and distort them to say what you want to be said, not even caring if it is true or even lose to what Jesus meant! Just so you can prove your twisted and distorted beliefs, How sick is that?I hope you read what your peer (Rob) here says:
“The Pope is infallible” according to the RCC.
The Pope is the only member of the CC that can speak infalliabily.Do you have any idea the last time a Pope did that? Take a guess. No, it wasn’t this century!
For Catholics, the Pope’s word is equal to the Word of God. And as such, they must obey him to the letter, and he can rewrite whatever he wants.
YOU SAID THAT! I NEVER DID! That is so false! Liar, Liar! Check your pants they may be on fire!
. I said: “The Pope is preserved from even the possibility of error when he solemnly declares or prommulgates to the Church a dogmatic teaching on faith or morals as being contained in divine revelation, or at least being intimately connected to divine revelation”
Now, do you believe what I say when I say that this is what Catholics believe? or do you still think I made it up?
You actually just made all that up so what should we believe???Do you drink? Ever talk to anyone about that? It seems to be a problem, or so I think!
The Pope is the only one who can speak infalliably for the Church. He is also a Human. He can make mistakes but not if he is speaking Infalliable. Read up on our religion if you want to argue, not stay igornant it doesn’t speak well of your parents. They should have gotten you an education. Also buckwheat, I am not infalliable, I make mistakes, But I don’t pretend like you are trying to do that I speak for the Catholic Church. I speak for myself. Every word I say to you is said in love and with respect for you as a person and as a “would like to be” Christian! Now like Jesus said Go and sin no more!
God bless you,
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RobGentner
Guest
Do your own Homework! And remember: “If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don’t like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself.” – Saint Augustine
“If you don’t follow the teachings of the Catholic Church you are a heretic . Jesus established only one church. All others are counterfeit. They must be lead by the enemy of Jesus, who wanders around like a lion devouring souls that should belong to Jesus” --Rob Gentner
God Bless you, my friend!
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Arglaze
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So he can turn the infallible switch on and off whenever he wants.
“The Pope is preserved from even the possibility of error when he solemnly declares or promulgates to the Church a dogmatic teaching on faith or morals as being contained in divine revelation, or at least being intimately connected to divine revelation”
It doesn’t matter when he uses this, the point is that the doctrine even exists. Who created this “infallibility doctrine.” God?
I’m not putting words in your mouth. In matters of faith and doctrine teaching, what the Pope says is law for Catholics. You can try to excuse that, but this doctrine makes the word of the Pope infallible like the Word of God is infallible.
God has not done this in the past, in Jesus’ days, and he will not do so at any time. His Word teaches better than that.
It was the so called religious leadership in Jesus’ days that was teaching lies as if they were the Word of God. No man’s words regarding any dogma or anything is infallible. Only God’s Word is. God himself said it in the law. To tests the prophets to see whether their message is from God by the Law and the Testimony. Why is that so hard to accept?
Who created infallibility, and where in the Scriptures do you find that only the RCC only can interpret the scriptures correctly? That is so not true. The Word of God belongs to everyone.
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RobGentner
Guest
My friend, if the Pope is infallible, then his word is equal in authority to the Word of God. Do you understand what you are claiming here? You are making a man’s word equal to God’s Word. Am I the only one who sees this? I simply can’t buy that doctrine, no man’s word is infallible.
GOD"S CHURCH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST! Is Jesus wrong? He is our Head! Can the Holy Spirit be wrong, He has guided our church for over 2,000 years, not 300 or 400!o
Do you still want to take away the Scriptures from me because I don’t agree with you? Who inspired those words, the trying to take the Scriptures away?
Only so you don’t danm yourself to hell. You don’t understand God’s Church, How could you understand His words written in a book? You don’t believe God whan he made the Church 2,000 years ago. But you believe what we wrote down in books? Yea Like a gun in the hands of a child, for your own safety. I would tear the Word of God from your hands!
If you were a christian, you’d take at least those words back.
Yea, Right! Hold your breath! I will get back to you on that!
You are so so precious! I love the heck out of you!
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Arglaze
Guest
What part of the Gospels have I rejected? Infallibility is not in the Gospels or else I wouldn’t have a problem with it.
RCC first claimed that the Pope was the vicar of Peter, and then they extended that to vicar of Christ. The only vicar of Christ (acting the place of Christ) is the Holy Spirit according to Jesus’ own words. Why does the RCC reject this part of the gospel? The Holy Spirit can inspire whoever he wants in the Church. He’s not limited to one man. We have no King but Jesus, and we follow through his Word.
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Arglaze
Guest
You keep claiming to be God’s church just because its 2000 years old. Can you not see God is not limited to one title?
God’s church are those who hear Jesus’ words and follow them.
If you want to go by age, then go back to Judaism, they are older, and they have all the credentials and even more than what the Catholic church to claims to have.
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