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RobGentner
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The Phase to dumb for words comes to mind when I review what you wrote! . Have a nice life!
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Peter_J
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Neither. I think you’ve been getting your ideas of what Catholicism is from an untrustworthy source.
To quote a recent thread title, CAF does NOT represent Catholicism.
Some Catholics do see it that way, but the Church has never actually said that.
For what it’s worth, I do not believe the Pope can “turn the infallible switch on” whenever he wants. (I got into a debate about that on the thread A trick question (papal infallibility).)
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Arglaze
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Think what you want of me. The infallibility doctrine has no Scriptural foundation. Its a fabrication to give the Pope authority in dogma and faith equal to God to control the masses. And that I can’t buy.
Everyone wants to think they are on the side of reason and justice, and I don’t blame you for thinking the highest things of your church and defending it. If I were Catholic, I’d do the same. Like I said before, I was raised in a country where I was forced to learn Catholicism as a subject in school, if I wanted to graduate that is.
You can’t learn more if you think you know it all. Especially when almost all you know comes through the eyes of one man and not the Word of God.
May God help you find the light in the Scriptures because the infallibility doctrine is just not there.
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Arglaze
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And I can respect that.
But I am learning from what Catholics say here, because I learned Catholicism when I was young from school. And latter in my life from friends and family.
So I’m not making stuff up. It may be different from what you guys believe, and you’re welcome to correct me if I learned wrong from them, but that’s my understanding of Catholicism.
What I’ve learned in school, from family, friends, and Priests that I’ve spoken to.
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RobGentner
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Sailka
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It os only when the Pope speaks Officially “Ex Cathedra”, Officially, that we Have to believe. Has been not often. And we Do Nelieve that when The Pope speaks on majotr Moral, Church topics, He Is the Voice of God. God So Said, Many verses. A couple are Mathew 16:18-19; 1 Timothy 3:15.
The Pope does not speak infallivly about his favorite hymn, painting, prayer.
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Sailka
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It is only when the Pope speaks Officially “Ex Cathedra”, Officially, that we Have to believe. Has been not often. And we Do believe that when The Pope speaks on major Moral, Church topics, He Is the Voice of God. God So Said, Many verses. A couple are Mathew 16:18-19; 1 Timothy 3:15.
The Pope does not speak infallibly about his favorite hymn, painting, prayer.
Vivat Jesus Tony
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jfallaw
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Thank goodness! As stylish as those red shoes are- I don’t think they would work for me lol!
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Sailka
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How’de You Guesss??? MANY Verses quote God saying so, a couple key ones, Again: Matthew 16:18-19; 1 Timothy 3:15. Are No ‘yes, buts’ about those, Since Our Lord authorized the Apostles. Don’t have time for lot more quotes.
Been recognized 1975 or so years.
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jfallaw
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You are correct. The Church teaches that the Holy Spirit will guard the Pope, when speaking Ex Cathedra, from uttering anything contrary to the will of God. Even to the point of striking him dead if need be. For instance, were the Pope to go insane and try to infallibly declare the devil to be worthy of praise, he would be stopped by the Holy Spirit, even if He had to give him a sudden, massive coronary while the words were forming on his lips. But since there have only been a handful of Ex Cathedra doctrines in the entire 2000 year history of the Church, we really don’t worry about it as much as you do!
But may I ask a question? If you are such a ‘Bible-believing’ Christian and think everything must be based 100% on Scripture and nothing else, why don’t most Protestant churches make women cover their heads in church or refuse to let them teach or have authority over men (1 Timothy 2:11- the same book you are trying to use against us)? Because, like it or not, you also have your own ‘tradition’ that explains why you no longer follow that particular command, as well as many others. The Word of God is Living. God’s will for us can change based on our circumstances. And it is the successor of Peter who has the power of the keys, to ‘bind’ us with doctrines or ‘loose’ us from them. Your preachers claim similar abilities by ‘loosing’ you from certain Biblical commands. The only reason you seem to have a problem with the Pope doing it is because he is Catholic.
Oh and btw, have you ever really thought about the verse you quoted (John 5:39) that says “Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.”? For in them you think you have eternal life. Eternal life is not in the Scriptures, it is in Jesus Christ. Remember that. And Jesus Christ LIVES. He did not cease to speak when the Scriptures were written. His Holy Spirit guides His Church to this very day.
Also, how could Jesus and the Apostles have taught about Mary’s assumption, since she was still alive when Jesus ascended and after most of the apostles were martyred?
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Sailka
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Or Me. One had to be a Pope, Or Emperor, til the 17th Century to wear red, not only Shoes. www.hpp.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_shoes - 22k
Red also signifies the Blood shed by the Massive numbers of early Martyrs. That is why RCC Cardinals wear Red Caps, signifying how most all the Apostles died. They died On Duty, because of the responsibilities given them by the Lord
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Realcatholicgk
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You are correct. The Church teaches that the Holy Spirit will guard the Pope, when speaking Ex Cathedra, from uttering anything contrary to the will of God. Even to the point of striking him dead if need be. For instance, were the Pope to go insane and try to infallibly declare the devil to be worthy of praise, he would be stopped by the Holy Spirit, even if He had to give him a sudden, massive coronary while the words were forming on his lips. But since there have only been a handful of Ex Cathedra doctrines in the entire 2000 year history of the Church, we really don’t worry about it as much as you do!
You are 100% Correct with what is posted above!
But may I ask a question? If you are such a ‘Bible-believing’ Christian and think everything must be based 100% on Scripture and nothing else, why don’t most Protestant churches make women cover their heads in church or refuse to let them teach or have authority over men (1 Timothy 2:11- the same book you are trying to use against us)? Because, like it or not, you also have your own ‘tradition’ that explains why you no longer follow that particular command, as well as many others. The Word of God is Living. God’s will for us can change based on our circumstances. And it is the successor of Peter who has the power of the keys, to ‘bind’ us with doctrines or ‘loose’ us from them. Your preachers claim similar abilities by ‘loosing’ you from certain Biblical commands. The only reason you seem to have a problem with the Pope doing it is because he is Catholic.
The problem they have is their preachers don’t have the right to suspend things like the Pope does!
Oh and btw, have you ever really thought about the verse you quoted (John 5:39) that says “Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.”? For in them you think you have eternal life. Eternal life is not in the Scriptures, it is in Jesus Christ. Remember that. And Jesus Christ LIVES. He did not cease to speak when the Scriptures were written. His Holy Spirit guides His Church to this very day.
He is the head, the Church is the body, They miss that special relationship we have with Jesus!
Also, how could Jesus and the Apostles have taught about Mary’s assumption, since she was still alive when Jesus ascended and after most of the apostles were martyred?
That won’t be answered ! You realize that, right? They will say Duhhhh and attack again using the same logic!
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Realcatholicgk
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jfallaw, don’t take this personally, but I’ve obtained a court order to prevent you from ever becoming Pope!
Tony also, but don’t tell him! He actually would like the job, I think!
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Realcatholicgk
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I hope you read what your peer (Rob) here says: “The Pope is infallible” according to the RCC.
He didn’t say that You are!
For Catholics, the Pope’s word is equal to the Word of God. And as such, they must obey him to the letter, and he can rewrite whatever he wants.
The Pope is only infallible when he speaks “ex cathedra,” or from the Chair of Peter (i.e., on behalf of the entire Church.) Those occasions are very rare and always deal with matters of faith, doctrine, and morals which impact the entire Church.
Otherwise, the Pope is just as capable of making bad decisions and sinning as anyone else. St Paul isn’t the only person who’s ever rebuked a Pope and called his behavior into question: the history of the Church is full of incidents where someone has spoken up when a pope has done something wrong. That is as it should be.
So the fact that St Paul corrected St Peter doesn’t mean that St Peter wasn’t the first Leader/Pope of the Catholic Church. It just means that St Peter had made a mistake and was willing to accept St Paul’s correction in all humility and love, just as all popes are expected to behave.
Finally, remember to read things in the context of the era in which they were written. Pope Gregory VII warned potential apostates that the authority of the Pope is not to be taken lightly.
Pope Gregory VII, was the 157th Roman Catholic Pontiff from 1073 to 1085. He is known in Catholic Church history as one of the most enthusiastic and influential pontiffs ever. I took his name as my confirmation name!
He declaired: “Only the Roman Pontiff is rightly called universal; the Pope can be judged by no one; no one can be regarded as a Catholic who does not agree with the Roman church; the Roman Church has never erred and never will err till the end of time; the Roman Church was founded by Christ alone; the Pope alone can depose and restore bishops; he alone can make new laws, set up new bishoprics, and divide old ones; he alone can translate bishops to another see; he alone can call general councils and authorize canon law; he alone can revise his own judgments; his sentence cannot be repealed by anyone and he alone can review the judgments of all; he alone can use the imperial insignia; he can depose emperors; he can absolve subjects from their allegiance to impious rulers; the Pope is the only man to whom all princes bend the knee; all princes should kiss his feet; his legates, even those in inferior orders, have precedence over all bishops; an appeal to the papal court inhibits judgment by all inferior courts; a duly ordained pope is undoubtedly made a saint by the merits of St. Peter.” - Pope Gregory VII
Now, do you believe what I say when I say that this is what Catholics believe? or do you still think I made it up?
Yup, you made it all up! What I posted is what catholics actually believe!
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jfallaw
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Even Benedict XVI prayed not to be elected! It’s certainly not a responsibility I would want…jfallaw, don’t take this personally, but I’ve obtained a court order to prevent you from ever becoming Pope!
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jfallaw
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Wow, I didn’t know that… well I knew the significance of red in the liturgy, but not about the restrictions on its use
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Peter_J
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Hmm … sudden death seems a little extreme.
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Not to be a party pooper, but if a Pope was really determined to make an ex cathedra statement declaring Y, and if Y is false, I think the most likely outcome is that said Pope would succeed in making a non-ex cathedra statement declaring Y, without dying or anything else spectacular. (Not that I would completely rule out his being struck by lightning, or struck dumb like Zechariah, or even having a vision that set him straight.)
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jfallaw
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True, sudden death seems unlikely, but Church really does teach that the Holy Spirit will see to it that the Pope’s infallible teachings are actually the true teaching of the Spirit.
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Realcatholicgk
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**
Would that also work on elected officials?
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We might need it!
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Peter_J
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LOL
What you just gave is actually the definition of “infallible”.
The claim that the Church makes is that ex cathedra statements by the Pope are infallible.
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