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TomH1
Guest
- Why do women in Islam cover their faces?
- How many women cover their faces voluntarily and how many are required to do so by some third party?
How do Catholics feel about whether countries should ban Niqab/Burka (full face covering) or not?
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Bluebright
Guest
I was just being lazy…as I am now…read Tis’s post. Security at airport etc. I am not very good with technology and unable to do the quote things, she gave a couple of examples, I forget the other but it was also identity related.
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Lea101
Guest
Ultimately…it’s not our business if they choose to cover their face. Or at least social reasons like this aren’t good enough to justify making a woman not wear it.
Of course, we have freedom of speech so we can discuss things like this…if such material is oppressive or not. And we listen to Muslim women and their points. And then we see if they still want to wear it
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TMC
Guest
It is black and white to me. In the US we have supposedly made a societal decision to allow each person the right to practice any religion. If we start exempting some religions from that principle, do we really have freedom of religion?
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Rozellelily
Guest
Ok I understand what you mean.
At the same time though,from what I’ve read isn’t there even “unhealthy” things in some christians from the USA?
For example I’ve read once that some “extremists christians” believe in something called a “rapture” where people would be removed from earth soon and they prepare by living in bunkers etc.
I mention this only to point out that sometimes people can believe extreme/unhealthy things in religion and I don’t want to single out only muslims and while a ban on “extreme manifestations” may not be the right way doesn’t there need to be a way that these people receive different (name removed by moderator)uts?
A lot of people might say it’s none of another’s business but at the same time aren’t we a social society.
At the same time though,from what I’ve read isn’t there even “unhealthy” things in some christians from the USA?
For example I’ve read once that some “extremists christians” believe in something called a “rapture” where people would be removed from earth soon and they prepare by living in bunkers etc.
I mention this only to point out that sometimes people can believe extreme/unhealthy things in religion and I don’t want to single out only muslims and while a ban on “extreme manifestations” may not be the right way doesn’t there need to be a way that these people receive different (name removed by moderator)uts?
A lot of people might say it’s none of another’s business but at the same time aren’t we a social society.
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Tis_Bearself
Patron
Unless she’s your friend or family member, why is this necessary?
I don’t need to know who every stranger on the street is or see his face.
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Rozellelily
Guest
This wasn’t addressed to me but isn’t it somewhat necessary to see people’s faces for safety reasons?
For example when we are in a shopping centre we have to have some awareness of our surroundings such as if we see someone acting strange or shady etc.
It might not necessarily have anything to do with religious factors,it may just be a person heavily on drugs but it’s the visual things that give us clues.
Or in a car park we might see some guys who “look shady” by their walk or demeanour and it’s all these visuals that help us to decide whether it’s a safe place or not to leave a car.
For example when we are in a shopping centre we have to have some awareness of our surroundings such as if we see someone acting strange or shady etc.
It might not necessarily have anything to do with religious factors,it may just be a person heavily on drugs but it’s the visual things that give us clues.
Or in a car park we might see some guys who “look shady” by their walk or demeanour and it’s all these visuals that help us to decide whether it’s a safe place or not to leave a car.
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TMC
Guest
Yes, millions of protestant christians believe in the rapture, and some take steps to prepare for it that those of us that do not believe in the rapture might find to be unreasonable or even unhealthy. Should that be illegal? Where should the line be drawn? Lots of people find the sanctity of the confessional to be harmful to society - that priests should be required to report crimes. Some people think that Jewish Kosher and Muslim Halal practices are inhumane to animals. The list goes on and on. What religious practices should we allow the government to outlaw?
I’m sure there is some limit, but it seems to me that dress code is way below any justification for government control over religious practices.
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Rozellelily
Guest
What about though when they are not oppressed (forced) but it still comes from an extreme mindset/unhealthy interpretation of religion?
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Asinner
Guest
Here’s a humorous example to sort of demonstrate my point as to why in the West we show our faces in public:
The principle is that it is hard to trust people who are hiding their face because they are hiding their identity (and ability to be identified later), and they are hiding all the facial expressions that let us evaluate their intentions. This trust isn’t necessary in just extreme cases, like airports; it is necessary in all of our day-to-day interactions with others at the store, on the street, etc.
The principle is that it is hard to trust people who are hiding their face because they are hiding their identity (and ability to be identified later), and they are hiding all the facial expressions that let us evaluate their intentions. This trust isn’t necessary in just extreme cases, like airports; it is necessary in all of our day-to-day interactions with others at the store, on the street, etc.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
When I see someone looking shady, I am generally not close enough to see their face. I don’t want to get that close to them. Also, a person’s face is not a good indicator of whether they are dangerous. Ted Bundy and other serial killers lured victims by seeming like nice harmless guys.
I spend all day talking to people online and on the phone whose faces I rarely or never see. I also don’t see all that well in person. Seeing a face is largely irrelevant to me unless like I said it’s a friend or family member, or a man I want to date, or a security issue like we are in the airport security queue.
I spend all day talking to people online and on the phone whose faces I rarely or never see. I also don’t see all that well in person. Seeing a face is largely irrelevant to me unless like I said it’s a friend or family member, or a man I want to date, or a security issue like we are in the airport security queue.
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Lea101
Guest
Same thing as I’ve said earlier. In a free society, we can discuss and debate this sort of stuff and we’ll let these women decide for themselves. We don’t need laws from the government to protect us from unhealthy interpretations because then anything can be deemed as unhealthy.
We have people against the basic Muslim guidelines (only palms, face and feet to be visible), and I’m sure they have compelling reasons as to why they believe this is an unhealthy view. But i don’t think any of this justifies a law, excluding security purposes of course.
I mean, we have secular people already saying Catholic views towards stuff are oppressive/unhealthy etc.
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Rozellelily
Guest
Thank God that people like Ted Buddy are rare.
Unfortunately these days,security issue is not always just airport.
In the last month in the shopping centre near where I live police found explosive making equipment in a boys bag and very sadly also a woman committed suicide by jumping from the fifth floor and other shoppers thought it was terrorism attack at first because it made a loud bang (sorry for the details) but thankfully it wasn’t.
Even when looking for a date,particularly online,seeing the guys face can give clues to his trustworthiness,personality etc but like you mentioned with the Ted Bundy example,it isn’t foolproof,but imagine if we couldn’t see their faces at all.
While the fully covered Muslim women aren’t relative to the online dating experience there is still a socialisation factor in every day life-if not in safety/security then simply in separating oneself from having interactions with different types of people etc.
Unfortunately these days,security issue is not always just airport.
In the last month in the shopping centre near where I live police found explosive making equipment in a boys bag and very sadly also a woman committed suicide by jumping from the fifth floor and other shoppers thought it was terrorism attack at first because it made a loud bang (sorry for the details) but thankfully it wasn’t.
Even when looking for a date,particularly online,seeing the guys face can give clues to his trustworthiness,personality etc but like you mentioned with the Ted Bundy example,it isn’t foolproof,but imagine if we couldn’t see their faces at all.
While the fully covered Muslim women aren’t relative to the online dating experience there is still a socialisation factor in every day life-if not in safety/security then simply in separating oneself from having interactions with different types of people etc.
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DarkLight
Guest
Given that most child care places have female staff, I suspect this wouldn’t be so hard in any case. One could simply ask the woman to remove her veil in a room with a female teacher.
Some people believe it is. I would rather the government stay away from telling people what their own religion teaches, except in blatantly obvious cases.
Honestly there’s times I’d appreciate the separation. I’m going to the store to buy food doesn’t mean I really want to get to know anyone.
blackforest
Well-known member
As a feminist and Catholic, I’m opposed to the face coverings. But also as a feminist, I’m opposed to banning them because of the inherent paternalism. Women aren’t toddlers. We don’t need the government choosing from our closets what we can and can’t wear.
Only under extremely rare circumstances do I support curtailing religious freedom. This case doesn’t cut it for me.
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Genesis315
Guest
Modesty is something that does have a relative component to it across cultures (cf. CCC 2524). I don’t think these articles of clothing can be said to be contrary to the objective moral order or even revealed truth.
Other than in circumstances where facial confirmation of identity is necessary, is there some other common good argument against them? Does repressing them aid in repressing other activities more directly harmful to the common good (properly understood)? What is the motivation for these laws?
Other than in circumstances where facial confirmation of identity is necessary, is there some other common good argument against them? Does repressing them aid in repressing other activities more directly harmful to the common good (properly understood)? What is the motivation for these laws?
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GiftofMercy
Guest
looks photo shopped
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Rozellelily
Guest
The thing is even in countries like Saudi Arabia,Lebanon or Iran a lot of women believe it’s not necessary in their religion to dress this way.
So these people represent an “extreme mindset” and while I don’t want to sound “like Hitler” lol telling people what to do,at the same time is it good to encourage unhealthy/extreme mindsets?
Governments in certain countries often “repress” things that have no direct (obvious) harm to the common good.
Eg
olygamy here is illegal but it only really directly affects the couple/s and their family.
Taking drugs is illegal but unless the person is driving,pregnant, or publicity belligerent the effects only really affect them.
Maybe the issue is that some things don’t directly affect others (except security concerns) but can affect society indirectly.
Wearing a hijab or long clothing or nun in habit don’t separate that person from the society they live in but women who choose to wear Niqab etc are often quite insular.
I think everyone’s probably right that unless it becomes a major security threat banning like Austria etc probably isn’t the way to go,but it still seems extremist/unhealthy mindset that they are interpreting religion through.
If they teach their sons to still respect all other women and their choice of dress,then they are only”harming” themselves if anyone at all,but unfortunately some of the young Muslim men learn bad attitudes towards non Muslim women from their parents.
I support anyone to be free to follow their religious beliefs,but when it comes to antisocialness then I don’t know…
So these people represent an “extreme mindset” and while I don’t want to sound “like Hitler” lol telling people what to do,at the same time is it good to encourage unhealthy/extreme mindsets?
Governments in certain countries often “repress” things that have no direct (obvious) harm to the common good.
Eg
olygamy here is illegal but it only really directly affects the couple/s and their family.Taking drugs is illegal but unless the person is driving,pregnant, or publicity belligerent the effects only really affect them.
Maybe the issue is that some things don’t directly affect others (except security concerns) but can affect society indirectly.
Wearing a hijab or long clothing or nun in habit don’t separate that person from the society they live in but women who choose to wear Niqab etc are often quite insular.
I think everyone’s probably right that unless it becomes a major security threat banning like Austria etc probably isn’t the way to go,but it still seems extremist/unhealthy mindset that they are interpreting religion through.
If they teach their sons to still respect all other women and their choice of dress,then they are only”harming” themselves if anyone at all,but unfortunately some of the young Muslim men learn bad attitudes towards non Muslim women from their parents.
I support anyone to be free to follow their religious beliefs,but when it comes to antisocialness then I don’t know…
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Lea101
Guest
If you’re talking about the definition of antisocial (cause harm to society and each other, e.g. Sociopathy) used in social sciences, we have laws for that.
If you’re referring to the layman’s version of the term (people not wanting to socialise with each other), it’s simply not the government’s job to make us like each other.
There are women in niqabs who are pretty friendly. There are also women without any veils who wouldn’t even give you eye contact or a smile when you say hi.
The problem is that this is really subjective and hence we don’t have laws for that caters to really subjective views, rightfully so.
Many women have spoken against the hijab, saying that covering something as innocent as hair or forearms is an extreme mindset and women should not comply even if it’s a choice. Some (usually those against immigration) have argued that these forms of dress creates division in our society because they don’t blend in.
So basically, these are just opinions that are better left being discussed rather than enforced
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Rozellelily
Guest
Yeah your probably right.At the same time things like this are rarely discussed openly publicly,at least not here,because of pc/taboo except by some more far right politicians who take things too far.
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