C
Charliemac
Guest
Excellent Post, Thanks
Charlie
Charlie
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J
jpusateri
Guest
I think the point that is being made is that Mary is not someone prayed to as you pray to God. You Pray to God through Mary. As evidence of this thought, the scene at the Wedding at Cana is very relevant. Did they ask Jesus? No, they asked Mary. Mary interceded for them to Jesus. Since Mary asked him, he responded. Presumably differently than if they had approached him themselves. This DOES establish her as a mediator.
Also the typology of Mary extends to the Hebrew idea of the mother of the king. In OT Judaism, the mother of the king (not the wife) was the queen. Who better to ask for something from the king than his queen…who was his mother.
Sometimes quotes which seem irrelevant to one context can provide understanding. The Scriptures are one big tapestry, everything contributes…
I know you are trying to understand. I hope this provides some more food for thought and I appreciate that you are listening.
T
TPJCatholic
Guest
JesustheSavior,
If you choose not to ask for the prayers of Mary, the angels and the saints, then that is certainly your perocative. No-one is saying that you must ask for prayers…you are free to go directly to Jesus (as Catholics do all the time). The point here is that requests for intercessory prayer is productive and it is Biblical.
If you choose not to ask for the prayers of Mary, the angels and the saints, then that is certainly your perocative. No-one is saying that you must ask for prayers…you are free to go directly to Jesus (as Catholics do all the time). The point here is that requests for intercessory prayer is productive and it is Biblical.
M
Maurelian
Guest
M
Maurelian
Guest
Where’s the mistake? Nowhere does this say that salvation is thru anyone other than Christ. Simply asking the saints to pray for us is not an indication that their help is necessary for our salvation. Nor is it even saying that we *must * go thru them to get to God. If you read the entire mass, you’ll find many prayers directly to Him. I’m with TPJ here…I’m not sure what you’re asking for.
F
firemnbob
Guest
This may be concerning the end of time, but the saints are still offering up our prayers to the Lord. This means that the saints HEAR our prayers when we ask for their intercession. Can you not logically deduce that they will also here our prayers in this time, also?
B
BCarpenelli
Guest
I’ve enjoyed reading this thread (especially JohnCarroll), thanks.
I’m a former “Bible Christian”. The gospel is definitely represented at the Mass, but there isn’t always a good application given by the Priest in the homily. Some ex-Catholics probably viewed the Mass as being redundant. Therefore, they had itching ears for the “the good news” communicated in a different way.
I’m a former “Bible Christian”. The gospel is definitely represented at the Mass, but there isn’t always a good application given by the Priest in the homily. Some ex-Catholics probably viewed the Mass as being redundant. Therefore, they had itching ears for the “the good news” communicated in a different way.
J
JesustheSavior
Guest
John 14:13 " And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father.
John 16:24 "Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.
Romans 8:26 "In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express.
James 1:5 "If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.
1 John 3:22 " and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him.
1 John 5:14 "This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.
I do believe that this verses in the bible are very explanatory,it never tells me that i have to pray to saints,to Mary or angels.
Anything that i should ask is in His name.
Acts 4:11-12 “He is the stone you builders rejected,which has become the capstone.1] '2] 12Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.”
With this verse i think explains a lot,Salvation is only found in Jesus Christ and this is what the thread was all about,no religion,no asking saints,nor Mary,nor angels can saved us but thru Him and only Him we can find salvation.
May God bless you all.
John 16:24 "Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.
Romans 8:26 "In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express.
James 1:5 "If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.
1 John 3:22 " and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him.
1 John 5:14 "This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.
I do believe that this verses in the bible are very explanatory,it never tells me that i have to pray to saints,to Mary or angels.
Anything that i should ask is in His name.
Acts 4:11-12 “He is the stone you builders rejected,which has become the capstone.1] '2] 12Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.”
With this verse i think explains a lot,Salvation is only found in Jesus Christ and this is what the thread was all about,no religion,no asking saints,nor Mary,nor angels can saved us but thru Him and only Him we can find salvation.
May God bless you all.
T
Tantum_ergo
Guest
JTS:
The Bible you want us to give “chapter and verse” authorizing us to pray to Jesus THROUGH Mary and the saints is the product of the inspired word of God given to his prophets and assembled by his only, holy, catholic and apostolic church.
And as other posters have pointed out, God’s faithful have (both in Old Testament and New Testament settings) always gone to God alone for salvation, but have prayed THROUGH others. . .through Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Isaiah, Elijah, David. . .all the way down to the Incarnate Word of God, Jesus Christ, who IS the way, the truth, and the life.
Apparently your faith community somewhere in the last 5 centuries decided that, contrary to Biblical interpretation (you remember that in 2 Peter it was stated that scriptural interpretation is not for INDIVIDUALS but is given us through God), that “the dead” were no longer part of the “communion of saints”. That God no longer became Body and Blood at the Consecration. In the same breath you deny the Bible where the dead have “fallen asleep in Christ” and “death has no more power over them”–and deny that Jesus told us to “eat my body and drink my blood. My flesh is real food and my blood real drink. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him, and I will raise him up on the last day” by your own PERSONAL interpretation of scriptures.
I ask Mary, mother of God, to bring my prayers to Christ not because I can’t go directly to him, or that they get “better” or more effacacious by going through Mary , but because as a believer in Christ, I worship Him, and love ALL my fellow Christians, on earth and in heaven, and I wish all our voices joined together in loving unity. That’s why I go to church instead of just praising Christ all by myself. I praise Him in the company of my fellow believers.
If I don’t have trouble standing there and asking the man in the next pew to pray for me, WHY would I have trouble asking Mary, the apostles, and the blessed in heaven to pray for me, too–pray FOR me TO God??
The Bible you want us to give “chapter and verse” authorizing us to pray to Jesus THROUGH Mary and the saints is the product of the inspired word of God given to his prophets and assembled by his only, holy, catholic and apostolic church.
And as other posters have pointed out, God’s faithful have (both in Old Testament and New Testament settings) always gone to God alone for salvation, but have prayed THROUGH others. . .through Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Isaiah, Elijah, David. . .all the way down to the Incarnate Word of God, Jesus Christ, who IS the way, the truth, and the life.
Apparently your faith community somewhere in the last 5 centuries decided that, contrary to Biblical interpretation (you remember that in 2 Peter it was stated that scriptural interpretation is not for INDIVIDUALS but is given us through God), that “the dead” were no longer part of the “communion of saints”. That God no longer became Body and Blood at the Consecration. In the same breath you deny the Bible where the dead have “fallen asleep in Christ” and “death has no more power over them”–and deny that Jesus told us to “eat my body and drink my blood. My flesh is real food and my blood real drink. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him, and I will raise him up on the last day” by your own PERSONAL interpretation of scriptures.
I ask Mary, mother of God, to bring my prayers to Christ not because I can’t go directly to him, or that they get “better” or more effacacious by going through Mary , but because as a believer in Christ, I worship Him, and love ALL my fellow Christians, on earth and in heaven, and I wish all our voices joined together in loving unity. That’s why I go to church instead of just praising Christ all by myself. I praise Him in the company of my fellow believers.
If I don’t have trouble standing there and asking the man in the next pew to pray for me, WHY would I have trouble asking Mary, the apostles, and the blessed in heaven to pray for me, too–pray FOR me TO God??
M
Maurelian
Guest
And no one on this thread would disagree with what you say, as no one on this thread has disagreed or contradicted this.
You keep talking as if the Catholic Church believes that saints and prayers to them are necessary for salvation. This is not and has not ever been taught by the Church. In fact, there is nothing we can do that will merit our salvation. It is a gift by the grace of God only.
Nor is prayer to the saints necessary to get to God. It is supplemental. It is beneficial. But it is not necessary.
J
JesustheSavior
Guest
That God no longer became Body and Blood at the Consecration. In the same breath you deny the Bible where the dead have “fallen asleep in Christ” and “death has no more power over them”–and deny that Jesus told us to “eat my body and drink my blood. My flesh is real food and my blood real drink. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him, and I will raise him up on the last day” by your own PERSONAL interpretation of scriptures.
First of all we are not talking here about the fallen asleep in Christ but in praying to saints,Mary or angels to intercede,but i know that it is tough to you that those “fallen asleep” are the saints that you ask for intercession.
Second you have brought into this thread the communion wich it has nothing to do on what we are talking,and if that is the case,why is it that you only partake the bread and to the wine?
Jesus was clear, we had to do that in remembrance of Him not just one but both,the bread and the wine.
First of all we are not talking here about the fallen asleep in Christ but in praying to saints,Mary or angels to intercede,but i know that it is tough to you that those “fallen asleep” are the saints that you ask for intercession.
Second you have brought into this thread the communion wich it has nothing to do on what we are talking,and if that is the case,why is it that you only partake the bread and to the wine?
Jesus was clear, we had to do that in remembrance of Him not just one but both,the bread and the wine.
C
cornerstone
Guest
i feel this is not 100% true. the Virgin Mary and the saints are a BIG part of the catholic faith and in no way suplemental.
in other words, can i be a catholic without believing that Mary was holy and sinless?
so the part of Mary on the catholic faith does not stop on one who helps us in prayer.
going back to my initial post, i think is more important to go out and talk to people that do not know Jesus at all instead of trying to find weapons on the battle against your “enemies”. we are all brothers and God loves everyone the same.
T
TPJCatholic
Guest
JesustheSavior,
May I please ask a respectful question of you?
First, a background setup: You have claimed many times in this thread that Catholics believe that they have to go through Mary, the angels and the saints in order to be saved. However, many people in this thread (including me) have told you that asking for prayers is productive, but it is not required or mandated in order to be saved. Further, many people (including me) have made it clear that Catholics believe we are saved by Jesus and only Jesus.
So,
Why do you keep on insisting that Catholics believe we must go through Mary, the angels and the saints in order to be saved?
May I please ask a respectful question of you?
First, a background setup: You have claimed many times in this thread that Catholics believe that they have to go through Mary, the angels and the saints in order to be saved. However, many people in this thread (including me) have told you that asking for prayers is productive, but it is not required or mandated in order to be saved. Further, many people (including me) have made it clear that Catholics believe we are saved by Jesus and only Jesus.
So,
Why do you keep on insisting that Catholics believe we must go through Mary, the angels and the saints in order to be saved?
J
jpusateri
Guest
I can agree with Tantum ergo and I appreciate his straight talk to cut through to the heart of the issue!
Tantum ergo:
Perhaps you would prefer not to think of the gate you pass through as you go straight to Jesus. Jesus, is of course available to all to go to directly. However, is it so hard to honor someone that Jesus honors? Wouldn’t you think that anything you ask of Jesus would be granted more willingly because his mother asks it of him on your behalf?
So recognizing Mary as someone who can ask for things on your behalf and present it in a more pleasing way than you (or I) can, is a rational belief.
I pray this helps you.
Tantum ergo:
I do believe that going to Christ through Mary can be more efficacious than going to Jesus directly. All our dealing with God, whether it is salvific or not is not a fomulaic, “if I do this, God does that”, machine-like activity. God is personal, Jesus is personal. God gets angry and can be appeased. This said, I believe that honoring Mary pleases Jesus. Mary is known as the gate of heaven because through that gate, Jesus entered the world. Is it such a leap of faith that to go to Jesus now, you would naturally go through that same gate? (Mary was Jesus’ first disciple since she said “yes” to him before he was conceived.) Every time we honor Mary, we give glory to the one to Him whom she points. Mary would be just another person were it not for Jesus.
Perhaps you would prefer not to think of the gate you pass through as you go straight to Jesus. Jesus, is of course available to all to go to directly. However, is it so hard to honor someone that Jesus honors? Wouldn’t you think that anything you ask of Jesus would be granted more willingly because his mother asks it of him on your behalf?
So recognizing Mary as someone who can ask for things on your behalf and present it in a more pleasing way than you (or I) can, is a rational belief.
I pray this helps you.
J
JesustheSavior
Guest
You may,and i will answer to you with all the respect that you deserve.
If you read what it was posted originally,the conversation with the lady that wanted to share the bible and the message of salvation,the catholic person reply about the missal,and the preayer of the saints,and Mary.
Honestly this posting was supposed to be about the gospel and how do catholics hear them,it is nice to have them read to you but more beautiful it is when they shared them with you.
We went from how do catholics hear the gospel to Mary,i will be honest,i do not center my faith or my believe as you notice in Mary,the importance that i give her is, she was the mother of Jesus,i guess my problem understanding your point is that catholics emphasize more on her than on Christ.
I believe in sharing the message of salvation just as Jesus told his disciples to go all over the world to talk about what they witness.
I do not believe in a religion,because it does not save me and in that, we both share the same Jesus is the way, that is what you said to me.
I guess it all boils down to, Mary in the catholic religion is very important in many ways,for me Jesus and only Jesus is above all and by putting angels,saints or Mary or i should better say,emphasized so much in them takes away what my Lord did,but that is the way i feel.
I respect all of you for what you have to say,and by allowing me the chance to express my points i have in a way share the word of God.
J
JesustheSavior
Guest
I do believe that going to Christ through Mary can be more efficacious than going to Jesus directly.
I respect your opinion, for me is more efficacious going directly to Jesus than thru her.
I respect your opinion, for me is more efficacious going directly to Jesus than thru her.
J
jpusateri
Guest
I understand and respect your opinion as well.
Can you tell me, though, how is it that you know that is it more efficacious for you?
What I mean is that I have given you some background as to what rational basis I have for my belief. I would be interested in any similar rational beliefs that could either refute or cast doubt upon mine.
God bless you!
J
JesustheSavior
Guest
And i did,i gave biblical verses of praying to God and in Jesus name not in Mary’s name,not in the angels name nor a saint name,it shall be giving to me.
Just look the verses i gave before,that is my background and where i base my belief.
God bless
T
TPJCatholic
Guest
JesustheSavior,
Thank you for the response.
From the Catholic point of view Mary is very important, for without her there would have been no Jesus in the flesh. We believe she can and does intercede for us, which from our view means that asking Mary to pray for us is a very good thing (this extends to the angels and saints as well).
However, Catholics do NOT believe that Mary is more important then Jesus, for Jesus is God and He alone saves.
Catholics believe that we are saved by Jesus–just as you do.
Thank you for the response.
From the Catholic point of view Mary is very important, for without her there would have been no Jesus in the flesh. We believe she can and does intercede for us, which from our view means that asking Mary to pray for us is a very good thing (this extends to the angels and saints as well).
However, Catholics do NOT believe that Mary is more important then Jesus, for Jesus is God and He alone saves.
Catholics believe that we are saved by Jesus–just as you do.
M
Maurelian
Guest
Well, i keep getting logged off every time I try to post…I’ll try again.
I didn’t mean Mary is supplemental to our faith. I was trying to point out that Catholics do not believe God won’t hear our prayers unless they go thru a saint first. We can and do pray directly to Him. Prayers to saints are in addtion to prayers to God, not instead of.
Is that more clear? I guess I’m not very good at this apologetics thing…
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