How Do Catholics Hear The Gospel?

[jpusateri]

JesustheSavior:

And i did,i gave biblical verses of praying to God and in Jesus name not in Mary’s name,not in the angels name nor a saint name,it shall be giving to me.
Just look the verses i gave before,that is my background and where i base my belief.

God bless

I am sorry that I was unclear. I am not saying that you cannot pray to Jesus. But you are stating that it is more efficacious to go directly to Jesus. Is there any justification to that particular belief? The verses you cite support praying in Jesus’ name. Can you cite anything that would say asking Mary to pray to Jesus for you would offend God? Or that Mary (or any saint) would somehow get in the way?

 

[MariaG]

Jesusthesavior,

I guess I don’t understand how you think Mary is over emphasized at Mass Because there are one or two places where we ask her AND EVERY SAINT alive on earth or alive in Christ to pray for us. Have you ever actually been to Mass? Christ is at the center of every Mass I go to.

The original poster was showing how the “four easy steps” are contained in each and every Mass.

I am a sinner. Only God can save me. Christ died for me. I accept Jesus as my personal savior.

These steps are in every Mass. Jesus is the center, the focus, the reason we come together to worship Him and only Him.

God Bless

 

[JesustheSavior]

jpusateri:

I am sorry that I was unclear. I am not saying that you cannot pray to Jesus. But you are stating that it is more efficacious to go directly to Jesus. Is there any justification to that particular belief? The verses you cite support praying in Jesus’ name. Can you cite anything that would say asking Mary to pray to Jesus for you would offend God? Or that Mary (or any saint) would somehow get in the way?

I will ask you something myself,can you cite were it say’s that i have to ask them?or go thru them for my prayers to be answer.
But can you please answer to me with quotes from the bible,i am interested in your answer.

 

[TPJCatholic]

JesustheSavior,

Again, we do not have to go through Mary, the angels or the saints. It is a very good thing to do–but we do not have to do it, we can directly to Jesus with our prayers (which we often do).

Please understand that the Catholic faith does NOT teach that we must go to Mary, the angels or the saints.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

JesustheSavior,

Notice in Sacred Scripture, that we have “come to” (past tense) the CITY of God. To God AND angels AND saints, to ALL THOSE IN HEAVEN. You seem to create a false trichotomy which erroneously emphasizes that it is either God OR angels OR saints that we have, as Christians, come to. Yet, the Bible makes no such claim. Observe,

**Heb 12:22-24 "But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, AND to innumerable **angels **in festal gathering, AND to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, AND to God the judge of all, AND to the spirits of the righteous made perfect [ie. saints], AND to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

Catholics assert, as does Hebrews 12, that it is quite orthodox to come to ALL those in heaven, to God AND angels AND saints. It’s as if the author of Scripture is asserting that all these in heaven are among ONE BODY, in communion with one another.

St. John did indeed speak to angels and saints when he was “caught up” in the Spirit. You may deny that this actually occurred, but I do not. St. John was not incorrect is conversing with angels and saints, and neither are Catholics. St. John also testifies that these angels and saints offer the prayers of the faithful to God. It seems that is one of their heavenly functions, per Sacred Scripture. You may assert this will happen in the future, but that means very little. The point is that angels and saints in heaven offer intercessionary prayers, just as Christians on earth do. Why? Death cannot separate us from the love of Christ. Angels and “the spirits of the just made perfect” in heaven are still among the ONE body of Christ, and it is just as pious a practice to ask for their prayers as it is for Christians on earth to ask for one another’s prayers.

The Psalmist makes evident that it is quite Scriptural to invoke the angels and heavenly hosts in prayer, in fact *all of God’s creation *(not just those on earth).

Ps. 103:20-22 “Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his bidding, obedient to his spoken word. Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will. Bless the Lord, all his works,** in all places** of his dominion.”

Ps. 148:1-2 "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens; praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels; praise him, all his host!

The Psalmist is conversing with creatures in heaven directly, right? It seems to me that we too, can do so quite Scripturally.

Now, can you show me ANY verse from Scripture which prohibits me from invoking heavenly angels and ministers in prayers, such as the Psalmists quite clearly has done?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

<<I guess it all boils down to, Mary in the catholic religion is very important in many ways,for me Jesus and only Jesus is above all and by putting angels,saints or Mary or i should better say,emphasized so much in them takes away what my Lord did,but that is the way i feel.>>

Let’s see if I understand you.
Do you feel that mentioning Mary or the saints (by asking them to join us in prayer) is undue emphasis when only Jesus is Lord?

And that somehow Jesus is so finite that even a mention of Mary or the saints TAKES AWAY FROM WHAT JESUS DID?

That I truly cannot fathom. It’s like comparing apples and oranges.

To me, it seems that you are limiting Jesus by saying that.
It’s like trying to limit love by saying that there is only a finite amount of love in the world, and that if you give some to someone (in this case, Mary), you won’t have enough for someone else (God). But love is limitless, and God is infinite. Didn’t He love Mary and the saints as much as he loves each and every one of us? He isn’t threatened by people praying with each other here on earth, why would He be threatened by people praying with Mary and the saints in heaven?

Bottom line, we WORSHIP God and we HONOR Mary. We WORSHIP God and we HONOR our mother and father and other good and worthy people.

P.S. Just an FYI to posters, I’m a she, not a he.

 

[jpusateri]

JesustheSavior:

I will ask you something myself,can you cite were it say’s that i have to ask them?or go thru them for my prayers to be answer.

But can you please answer to me with quotes from the bible,i am interested in your answer.

• I have never stated that you have to ask them. It is not a must. We are allowed to approach the infinite, perfect, all-powerful and ever living God in all our imperfections. (Although that is allowed due to the sacrifice of Jesus, I feel that, as a sinner, I cannot be so comfortable/casual about entering into in His presence. Picture that mighty throne room and a filthy, mud covered person waltzing in.)
• I have tried to show that it is a rational belief from biblical typology. (Mary as gate of heaven and queen mother) So that filthy person offering his best to God or to ask for aid has only to ask that his request is brought to Jesus by his blessed mother, cleaned up and presentable.
• In the absence of contrary information, which I have asked for, I will continue to rationally believe what I have stated.

As regards bible verses, I have thought lately that the Bible is not a medium that is correctly represented in “sound bytes.” I think of sound bytes when I get a verse from here and there in order to prove a point.

The whole of the Bible is the point. For example, in regards to Justification and works, you can’t have either Romans or James, you have to take both Romans and James. They seem to contradict each other and reading (or taking verses from) just Romans will give you an unbalanced understanding of the issue of works.

It is the understanding of the whole that we all strive for. (for which we all strive? )

Please keep asking and I hope I can be of service.

 

[JesustheSavior]

have never stated that you have to ask them. It is not a must. We are allowed to approach the infinite, perfect, all-powerful and ever living God in all our imperfections. (Although that is allowed due to the sacrifice of Jesus, I feel that, as a sinner, I cannot be so comfortable/casual about entering into in His presence. Picture that mighty throne room and a filthy, mud covered person waltzing in.)

Hebrews 4:16 "Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.
So this verse accordingly to you means that we can not enter the presence of God because of our sinful nature,wich i know that i am a sinner,i will not denied that,but i do live in a human body wich one day will be perfect so i can enter for ever into His presence.
You see…for me, when i accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior he made me worthy to be in His presence,so when i go to Him in prayer i can feel Him,when i need comfort He comforts me.And even do i am not worthy of His inmense love i am truly thankful that He save me and made me worthy to one day truly be in His presence for ever.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

i know that i am a sinner,i will not denied that,but i do live in a human body wich one day will be perfect so i can enter for ever into His presence.
You see…for me, when i accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior he made me worthy to be in His presence,so when i go to Him in prayer i can feel Him,when i need comfort He comforts me.And even do i am not worthy of His inmense love i am truly thankful that He save me and made me worthy to one day truly be in His presence for ever.

Amen Brother! Approach that throne with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ! Just don’t discount that other Christians choose to approach the CITY of the living God, with God AND the angels AND the saints with the same pious confidence, in accord with Scripture (Heb 12:22-24) and the orthodox teachings of the Holy Martyrs of the early Church.

 

[JesustheSavior]

itsjustdave1988:

Amen Brother! Approach that throne with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ! Just don’t discount that other Christians choose to approach the CITY of the living God, with God AND the angels AND the saints with the same pious confidence, in accord with Scripture (Heb 12:22-24) and the orthodox teachings of the Holy Martyrs of the early Church.

And i do,and i can’t wait to approach the Throne of my God together with those saints that even today around the world are dying and being persecuted in the name of Jesus.
What a glorious day will be, when are in front of our Creator,in front of my Lord Jesus and be able to walk in His presence and those Saints that not only are from the beggining of christianity, but even those that are willing to die for Him today.

Here is one example of those martyrs

Afghanistan’s Taliban guerrillas say they cut the throat of a Muslim cleric after they discovered him propagating Christianity and warned foreign aid workers they would face similar treatment if they did the same. Taliban spokesman Abdul Latif Hakimi telephoned Reuters July 1st to say that the guerrillas killed Maulawi Assadullah in the remote Awdand district of Ghazni province the previous day. “A group of Taliban dragged out Maulawi Assadullah and slit his throat with a knife because he was propagating Christianity,” he said.

On Tuesday, June 8th, the head of Simon Ndabi Kamore was found wrapped in green plastic on the pavement near the bus stop where he had been preaching his newfound religion just three days earlier. His body has not yet been found. (Numerous grisly rumors abound as to what has happened to his torso.) Kamore, a former member of the outlawed Mungiki sect, had denounced the sect after converting to Christianity. He paid the ultimate price.

An Indian national abducted and tortured by Saudi Arabia’s religious police (the muttawa) for “spreading Christianity” remains jailed without trial 10 weeks after his detention. Brian Savio O’Connor, 36, was accosted on the evening of March 25th by four agents of the religious police. Seeing his identity card listing him as a Christian, they dragged him to a nearby muttawa office, chained his legs and hung him upside down for seven hours. The four intermittently beat him on the chest and ribs and whipped the soles of his feet with electrical wires. He declared that he did preach the Bible but denied converting Muslims to Christianity. O’Connor, a cargo agent for Saudia Airlines for the past six years, currently shares a windowless cell with 16 other prisoners.

you can read more of these saints in thevoice@vom-usa.org

 

[MGEISING]

I have been reading this thread that I started … and it is turning into something different than I had hoped. My purpose was to spread a wonderful track on the gospels, not to have someone think it is an attack on any other religion. We, Catholics, are always lamb-basted for NOT HEARING SCRIPTURE. I just thought it was a wonderful tool to evangelize with — if I have upset anyone … it wasn’t my intent.

God’s Peace! Moe

 

[BLB_Oregon]

cornerstone:

i cannot believe that a believer can say “accepting Jesus as you personal Lord and Savior has always bugged me”.

I think this may be a semantics issue. It is the “personal” part that doesn’t ring quite right. Not because there should not be a personal relationship between you and Jesus, but because we are the Body of Christ and the relationship, when mature, goes so far beyond that.

We are in communion. That guy standing next to you in church who just rubs you the wrong way… Jesus. That woman who argues every point of scripture with you… Jesus. That priest who gives the absolutely awful homilies… Jesus. This is a very difficult part of what we are called to as Christians, so we want to keep that right in front of us.

Also, for some it is more a matter of wanting to say “I am His” rather than “He is mine”–because of course you cannot possess God. You can only be possessed by God. God is not your co-pilot. God always have the controls. Your choice is more akin to whether or not to be in the airplane or to just be in free-fall without a parachute.

As far as going door-to-door, perhaps some Catholics take St. Francis too much to heart: Preach always… and when you have to, use words.

 

[jpusateri]

So this verse accordingly to you means that we can not enter the presence of God because of our sinful nature,wich i know that i am a sinner,i will not denied that,but i do live in a human body wich one day will be perfect so i can enter for ever into His presence.

Huh? How did what I say come out as that? When did I say “can not enter”? What I said was that I am still unworthy of the grace God gives me. It is a gift but undeserved. The verse says that despite being a sinner, we have been granted the permission to approach the throne and we should not hesitate to ask for mercy. However when one approaches without humility (i.e. as if deserving of that gift) he offends God. My position is that I would rather err on the side of humility than pride. It’s a GIFT. Perhaps you are holier than I am, but I have a high regard for God’s purity and a low regard for my own.

JesustheSavior:

You see…for me, when i accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior he made me worthy to be in His presence,so when i go to Him in prayer i can feel Him,when i need comfort He comforts me.And even do i am not worthy of His inmense love i am truly thankful that He save me and made me worthy to one day truly be in His presence for ever.

You say that when you accepted Him as Lord and Savior he made you worthy. I would agree with you in that I bet that at the same time you also repented and said you would try to stop sinning. True? If not, then the accepting was faint-hearted; not a saving faith as you might put it (Would you agree?)

If you did repent, then if you have ever failed in stopping sinning then you are no longer worthy. Do you agree or disagree with that? If you disagree then I think we have different understandings of “worthiness”. I believe as the Catholic church does that it is possible to sin (mortally) and lose your salvation until you repent again and re-establish your right relationship with God.

I understand that if you have faith and persevere to the end you will be made worthy. But that is by virtue of God’s grace enabling you to do so. This is sanctification; a process, not an event. It transforms you by His help (grace) and your efforts. Sinning and repenting if necessary. It would also not fit the nature of heaven (the presence of God). You could not endure there unless you were actually sanctified.

This is the difference between justification by forensic, imputed righteousness (your view) and infused righteousness (the Catholic view). In brief, the former is that a sinner is still dirty covered by a cloak of Christ’s righteousness so God can’t see your sins. (Martin Luther likened it to a dung hill covered with pure white snow.) The latter is that your nature is infused with sanctifying grace so that you actually **become **righteous.

It’s unfortunate that it isn’t that easy to explain. The implications of every doctrine lean upon others and to explain one is to touch upon several others. Sound bytes don’t do justice to the ideas.

God be with you.

 

[MGEISING]

jpusateri :clapping:

thank you - what a wonderful witness!

 

[RBushlow]

JTS,

The simple answer is, asking your neighbour, friend, or minister to pray for you is the same as asking Mary, or the saints. Mary may just have a little more influence with her Son, that's all.

Yours in Christ

 

[journey]

Wow! I have read through this entire thread. MGEISING- thank-you for the link! It has been very helpful to read all of the replies to JTS. Thanks for the scripture references, Dave!

Love in Christ,
journey

 

[MGEISING]

journey:

Wow! I have read through this entire thread. MGEISING- thank-you for the link! It has been very helpful to read all of the replies to JTS. Thanks for the scripture references, Dave!

Love in Christ,
journey

I loved it and I couldn’t NOT share it with our CAF! It is a wonderful explaination – I even sent it to my inlaws who are Fundamental Independant Baptists!

They didn’t comment on it though

 

[JesustheSavior]

It is not about trying to stop sinning since you can’t to do say so,i am making myself equal to Jesus and that is not the case here.
I am not better than you nor holy than you,don’t misinterpret my words please,i said that when i repented of my sins God forgave me for them.
Isaiah 1:18 ""Though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red as crimson,
they shall be like wool.

Hebrews 8:12 “12For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”

1 Peter 2:24 "He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed.

1 John 1:9 "9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

Ephesians 2:5-9 “made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions–it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9not by works, so that no one can boast.”

I can keep on going with all this verses that tells me that when i ask for God to forgive my sins they are forgotten,i am save by His grace.This not make me better than others,it is call salvation if i ask God to forgive me as a sinner,if i ask Him to enter in my heart because i accepted that with out Him i can not inherit heaven,if i recognize that Jesus die for me in the cross to save me then i beleive in His word that tells me that i am save,Christ die one time for me so i can be save,this is the personal relationship that i have with my Lord Jesus.
I can assure one thing if i die today i will see the glory of God and i never doubt about my salvation.

1 Peter 3:18 "For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit.
I will say to you like Paul said in Galatians 2:20 " have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
That is what the gospels are all about,He gave himself for me i was not and i am not worthy of that love and still he did that,i guess you have seen the passion of the Christ,the part were He was being whip i cry saying "how could you love me so much to endure this for me?when He carry the cross wich it was my cross and die the way He die,how can i take away that inmense love and say that,ok i am a sinner forgive me,and then because of my flesh that is weak i sin and lost it,then it meant nothing what He did.
I am save, and that i have no doubt i know that, like Proverbs 4:18 say “The path of the righteous is like the first gleam of dawn,
shining ever brighter till the full light of day.” I know the day that my Lord comes back for me i will be like the first gleam of light shinning ever brighter,what He si doing now is just perfecting me,like a diamond He polishes me every day,and i know He loves me for who i am,that unconditional love that no matter how filthy my rags were or are he cleans me,as long when i repent for what i have done wrong i do it with my heart and it is full repentence.

 

[KateQ]

JesustheSavior,

I’m sorry I have not responded to your question earlier ( 2 days ago), I have been away from the forums. Several people, however, gave you excellent responses – ## 31, 32, & 35, for example.

As I have read the follow-up posts, however, I am struck by the fact that so often the disconnect between the questions and the answers comes from the way Catholics and non-Catholics use words. We often mean the same thing using different words, and different things using the same words. So we must always read and respond to an answer with an open and loving mind.

Since my co-posters have given you chapter and verse about praying, may I give you an example? My sister has a mysterious illness which has been difficult and frightening to deal with. I pray for her, my friends and co-workers pray for her, my relatives pray for her, and I have asked Mary and the saints to pray for her. We are all praying to Jesus for her healing. I didn’t have to ask all these people to pray, I can just pray by myself – in fact I could leave this all up to my sister to do her own praying. But how nice to know all these prayer warriors are on the case!

I was raised a Protestant. God, in His grace, has brought me into the Church. Nothing that I have encountered here offends my strict Protestant upbringing – it just enhances it.

In Christ’s love, Kate

 

[jpusateri]

JTS,

We can certainly agree that it is all about being forgiven and wanting to join Jesus in heaven, yes?

The things we disagree on is how that happens. The verses you quote all talk about being forgiven and becoming ready to join Jesus in heaven.

But they do not address how it happens.

It is not about trying to stop sinning since you can’t to do say so,i am making myself equal to Jesus and that is not the case here.

Certainly you are not saying that trying to stop sinning is making yourself equal to Jesus? Or even trying to be like Jesus is wrong?

If you’ve repented and you then sin again, do you believe you are still right with God and going to heaven? Let’s begin there.

Or perhaps let’s move this to a new Thread?