How do future child molesters get through seminary?

[Maximus1]

I. agree with your post. We agree.
Institutionally, moving and hiding these people had more people. The concealment is the record. The Church opperates in terms of centuries. They can out sustain a generation or two. ( If the choose to)
It is an arrow in their quiver.
Like you, I hope as you do. That is a personal motivation we Catholics have.
My energy and hope is in what you forecast, concerning reforms, eliminating the problem. Short term shame, or pain, loss of pride, humility, and let’s face it, damage, are a lesser price that reconstitution.
Reform came about when two things changed. Change in attitude. We went from " children" to knowers of the terrible truth. And we paid a price albieit, not the price of victims.
All we can do is stay relentless to the truth. Which is a sacrifice in itself because we can never really go back to our bliss anyway. Not without lying to ourselves and worse, serving as accessories.
And so with regret we must muffle the trust we once had. Realizing, in our lifetime, we won’t have the luxury of returning to that state. This is our responsibility to future Catholics.
And the leadership will have to resign to that fact. Eyes wide open, and watching critically seems the only response that is responsible.
Along the way, reform will be proposed. Maybe it happens, maybe not. I don’t fear it as much as I fear the propensity to take up bad practices she the coast is clear

 

[PetraG]

That sounds like a mental illness to me. So the other child-abusers who aren’t classed pedophiles are deliberately trying to hurt a child whereas the ones classed pedophiles are beyond delusional. I do wonder if they’re crazy or just self-deceiving but deep down, still malicious.

I don’t know about you, but I’d say that anybody who wants to victimize somebody in that way has a very serious mental health issue.

These is the DMS-5 criteria for a diagnosis of pedophilia. By definition, it does NOT include a child’s peers who are less than 5 years older. Note that the criteria are urges OR behaviors; it does not have to be both:

• Recurrent, intense urges, or behaviors involving sexual activity with a prepubescent child (generally age 13 years or younger) for a period of at least 6 months.
• These sexual urges have been acted on or have caused significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.
• The person is at least 16 years old, and at least 5 years older than the child in the first category. However, this does not include an individual in late [adolescence] involved in an ongoing sexual relationship with a 12- or 13-year-old.

(Relationships with much-younger victims who have reached adolescence would be hebephila, not pedophilia)

To the topic: Keep in mind that officials at seminaries are sometimes mandatory reporters of information about offenses against children that came to them outside of sacramental confession. They might be legally bound to report a seminary candidate who admitted prior criminal behaviors to the police. The fear of arrest and incarceration also keeps pedophiles from even implying they might have done anything like this in the past. Records of offenses committed before the age if 18 are sometimes sealed, as well. It depends on the jurisdiction.

 

[Rubee]

Well, sure. But there’s some ‘mental health’ conditions that may just be about being evil. Maybe not everyone who wants to cause suffering is doing it to be evil, but some might. And as for the fantasizers, the DSM seems to be describing something very intrusive, good Lord. It’s kinda sad that grace doesn’t seem to have the same effects here it does with more normal strong urges that are still illicit.

 

[Aquinas11]

I don’t know about you, but I’d say that anybody who wants to victimize somebody in that way has a very serious mental health issue.

No because they only do it in private. People with mental illnesses can’t control their behavior thus would equally engage in it in public place or private place, in front of police station or at home. Wouldn’t matter.

 

[PetraG]

I think psychologists call people who have no emotional conscience or sense of empathy sociopaths or psychopaths. These are not people who have no capacity to observe moral law, but all their capacity is intellectual. They don’t “feel guilty” and most apparently don’t believe anyone else does, either (or that those who do are “suckers” or “gullible” etc). Yes, I have heard psychologists refer to psychopaths who reject the possibility of an objective moral law as just evil.

Again: from what I understand, pedophilia and personality disorders such as being a sociopath or a psychopath are two different things. I wouldn’t think they go together often, because both are relatively rare?

 

[PetraG]

People with mental illnesses can’t control their behavior…

Oh, not true. They may not be able to control their thinking or behaviors entirely, but many people dealing with mental illnesses can control their behaviors to some extent. For instance: an alcoholic is often capable of hiding their alcohol abuse, even when they do not know how to stop abusing alcohol entirely. People who know them very well might not have any idea about the extent of their problem, because the alcoholic can plan their use so they can hide it. Certainly a pedophile can hide his fantasies and the measures he is taking to groom a victim without anyone else knowing. That doesn’t mean his inclination is not a mental illness or that he has the power to redirect his thinking at will.

 

[Aquinas11]

An active alcoholic can’t control how much they drink and thus can’t control their behavior in public. A recovered alcoholic is a different story.

 

[KMC]

Maximus1:

Married should yield a greater percentage of heterosexual candidates. Less pedophiles.

You realize that the majority of pedophiles are heterosexual right? The victims of child molesters are more often that not little girls.

Also homosexuality and pedophilia aren’t one and the same.

Most of those abused by priests were boys. Most of those abused were over 14, so it would not be called pedophilia. I have seen people argue over words, but I’ve seen some articles refer to that as homosexual abuse, and I have see others use the term “ephebophilia” (a term I only learned within the last month).

So if we are talking about finding solutions to the problems within the Catholic Church, certainly pedophilia is an issue, but its not the larger issue.

 

[KMC]

If celibacy was a significant contributor to pedophilia, priests would be over represented among the ranks of pedophiles. I don’t think this is the case.

The John Jay Report stated celibacy was not a cause of the issue. (Primarily due to the fact that between the 1950s and 2000, there was an increase and decrease in the number of abuse cases, while celibacy was constant.

 

[PetraG]

An active alcoholic can’t control how much they drink and thus can’t control their behavior in public. A recovered alcoholic is a different story.

Have you not known any alcoholics? I’m not trying to be cute; I mean that they are capable of going to great lengths to hide their drinking. If this weren’t true, a “high-functioning alcoholic” couldn’t really exist. Believe me, they absolutely do. There are a lot of “high-functioning” people who are hiding untreated mental disorders. That does not mean they don’t “really” have a mental disorder.

 

[PetraG]

Most of those abused by priests were boys. Most of those abused were over 14, so it would not be called pedophilia. I have seen people argue over words, but I’ve seen some articles refer to that as homosexual abuse, and I have see others use the term “ephebophilia” (a term I only learned within the last month).

Keep in mind, too, that abusing a position of authority is a different issue than pedophilia. There have been seminaries in which predatory behavior took place of the kind that has been reported against some in Hollywood. As some here have implied, a seminary wouldn’t offer the opportunities for abusing women, but only for finding male victims. The parallel with Hollywood is unfortunately clear: the predator holds the victim’s future in his hands and is in a position of power and trust. A victim who reports isn’t believed and can have the direction of their future turned upside down. The main thing is that predators of all kinds try to find a place to identify and abuse victims without being discovered or, if discovered, without facing justice or notoriety if they are discovered.

 

[commenter]

I am not sure if your data applies to my point.
Married should yield a greater percentage of heterosexual candidates. Less pedophiles.
The Church was a natural ideal place for a pedophile.
It provided cover.
It provided safety.
For preditors, it provided an illusion.
Enough numbers, and the institution provides protection.
Celibacy does not cause pedophiles, it gathers them out of their own desire to be safe and to engage their impulse.

First, pedophiles are rare in the priesthood. In my Diocese over 80 priests have been “substantiated” as sex abusers. Based on what I can learn, none is apparently a pedophile, though so my data is incomplete.

Second, sex offenders tend to avoid positions with public scrutiny. Parish priests (the vast majority of offenders) are much more personally scrutinized than most professionals.

 

[Aquinas11]

capable of going to great lengths to hide their drinking.

keep words here are “great lengths”. Yes they can try to hide their drinking by drinking at home, etc, but once they start to drink? If they’re a true alcoholic? They’ve no idea what they’ll end up doing.

 

[Maximus1]

Priests are scrutinized now.
You can go onto Google and see the volume of claims and lawsuits everywhere on the globe. They are rare. The sheer volume of cases reported tells you the church has a bunch

 

[Maximus1]

The majority of cases involve boys 11 to 14.
They don’t maintain criminal records of adults.
Nothing is perfect and I wouldn’t expect it to be

 

[Maximus1]

They don’t have priors before there are victims obviously. So caution is necessary. Correct

 

[PetraG]

keep words here are “great lengths”. Yes they can try to hide their drinking by drinking at home, etc, but once they start to drink? If they’re a true alcoholic? They’ve no idea what they’ll end up doing.

The thing is that high-functioning alcoholics have been known to go on for years without being discovered. That’s alcoholism, a compulsion with effects that people can discern for hours after using. If you’re talking about the kinds of things that people obsess about, well, nobody knows how to read minds yet. The person may not be able to control what he obsesses about, but his thoughts aren’t tatooed across his forehead. Yes, he can keep that a secret.

Honestly–look at Ted Bundy. One of his own defense lawyers described him as “the very definition of heartless evil.” After starting his career as a serial murderer, he dated women; he had a fiancée! They had no idea what he was or what he had done. He obviously passed over opportunities to do the kinds of things he spent time thinking of doing, and he usually did.

Look at this quote, a chilling description of persistent depression and suicidal ideation: “I don’t like standing near the edge of a platform when an express train is passing through…I like to stand back and, if possible, get a pillar between me and the train. I don’t like to stand by the side of a ship and look down into the water. A second’s action would end everything. A few drops of desperation.” Winston Churchill wrote that. Did anybody know what sorts of ideas went through his head? No. That is pretty clearly a hidden mental illness. It can be done, and it is done all of the time.

 

[KMC]

I stand corrected. I was using this one.

Priest Abuse: Male Compared to Female Victimization Impact

The sexual crimes committed against children and adolescents by Catholic priest has figured prominently in the media over the past decade, and rocked the Catholic Church the world over. The “sins of the fathers” have been more than matched by the sins of the church hierarchy which showed more...

www.psychologytoday.com

Went to the John Jay numbers…11 to 14 is the largest block, however, I do think its important to say that the majority of victims were post pubescent…which provides us data on the exact nature of the problem(s) so we can appropriately address it.

 

[Aquinas11]

You’re confusing
(A) behavior never manifests in public, with
(B) behavior sometimes manifests in public

(B) can be a mental illness, since demonstrates an inability to control actions despite environment (e.g. police officers, etc)

 

[otjm]

This statement is full of guesses. It is not a subject for guessing.

1. What evidence is there that the abusers molested others when they were young? None I know of.
2. why do you presume that a molested child will tell the parents? And assuming a child did, why do you think the parents would understand what they are being told?
3. The crisis goes back to priests who were ordained in the 1940’s, 1950,s 1960’s and since.