How do I know if I'm born again?

[PatienceAndLove]

Lets see…
I was “born again” into Christ’s Church when I very unworthily took Communion (I was very fallen away and a card carrying lesbian witch. It was just a piece of bread, it didn’t matter, in my my mind at the time)
As I got back to the pew, The Holy Spirit and Christ took a 2x4 to my soul and cried like a little baby. Oh how Christ ripped me apart and healed me that Mass.
It’s like th Shepherd says in Hinds Feet in High Places, the love may heart at first, but it will blossom.

 

[Teflon93]

Holy means set apart not sinless.

American Heritage Dictionary:

ho·ly (hō’lē) Pronunciation Key
adj. ho·li·er, ho·li·est

**Belonging to, derived from, or associated with a divine power; sacred. **
Regarded with or worthy of worship or veneration; revered: a holy book.
Living according to a strict or highly moral religious or spiritual system; saintly: a holy person.
Specified or set apart for a religious purpose: a holy place.
Solemnly undertaken; sacrosanct: a holy pledge.
Regarded as deserving special respect or reverence: The pursuit of peace is our holiest quest.
Informal Used as an intensive: raised holy hell over the mischief their children did.

So if babies are holy in that they are associated with a divine power (sacred), then at what point do they cease to be so if they are not to be baptized?

If they are holy in the sense of being set apart for a religious purpose, what is that purpose? How does it tie to baptism at the age of consent, whatever age that is?

 

[misslollipops]

Lets see…
I was “born again” into Christ’s Church when I very unworthily took Communion (I was very fallen away and a card carrying lesbian witch. It was just a piece of bread, it didn’t matter, in my my mind at the time)
As I got back to the pew, The Holy Spirit and Christ took a 2x4 to my soul and cried like a little baby. Oh how Christ ripped me apart and healed me that Mass.
It’s like th Shepherd says in Hinds Feet in High Places, the love may heart at first, but it will blossom.

That sounds like you were definitely born again! Praise God!
That is the way it happens.
Not as an infant
You made a choice and recognized your sin.
Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

 

[misslollipops]

American Heritage Dictionary:

ho·ly (hō’lē) Pronunciation Key
adj. ho·li·er, ho·li·est

**Belonging to, derived from, or associated with a divine power; sacred. **
Regarded with or worthy of worship or veneration; revered: a holy book.
Living according to a strict or highly moral religious or spiritual system; saintly: a holy person.
Specified or set apart for a religious purpose: a holy place.
Solemnly undertaken; sacrosanct: a holy pledge.
Regarded as deserving special respect or reverence: The pursuit of peace is our holiest quest.
Informal Used as an intensive: raised holy hell over the mischief their children did.

So if babies are holy in that they are associated with a divine power (sacred), then at what point do they cease to be so if they are not to be baptized?

If they are holy in the sense of being set apart for a religious purpose, what is that purpose? How does it tie to baptism at the age of consent, whatever age that is?

they are holy and set apart. but they still have to deal with the sin issue both personal and original. this can only be done through repentance

 

[misslollipops]

This may one source of problems in our discussion. For most Catholics, “Holy” means “like God”. Therefore to be holy one is sinless.

By your definition, who in the church is holy?
Who in the church is sinless, save Jesus?.
By your definition no one can be holy because everyone has sinned.
So you see Holiness does not mean sinless.

 

[Teflon93]

That sounds like you were definitely born again! Praise God!
That is the way it happens.
Not as an infant
You made a choice and recognized your sin.
Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

We recognize our sins every time we go to Confession, ask the Lord’s forgiveness, receive it, and complete an act of contrition.

Here is a relevant portion of the Rite of Penance:

My God,
I am sorry for my sins with all my heart.
In choosing to do wrong and failing to do good, I have sinned against you, whom I should love above all things.
I firmly intend, with your help, to do penance, to sin no more, and to avoid whatever leads me to sin.
Our savior Jesus Christ suffered and died for us.
In his name, my God, have mercy.

or Psalm 25:6-7

Remember, Lord, your compassion and mercy you showed long ago.
Do not recall the sins and failings of my youth.
In your mercy, remember me, Lord, because of your goodness.

or Psalm 51:4-5

Wash me from my guilt and cleanse me of my sin.
I acknowledge my offense; my sin is before me always .

or Luke 15:18, 18:13

Father, I have sinned against you and am not worthy to be called your son.
Be merciful to me, a sinner.

or

Lord Jesus, you chose to be the friend of sinners.
By your saving death and resurrection free me from my sins.
May your peace take root in my heart and
bring forth a harvest of love, holiness and truth.

or

Lord Jesus Christ, you are the Lamb of God;
you take away the sins of the world.
Through the grace of the Holy Spirit
restore me to friendship with your Father,
cleanse me from every stain of sin in the blood you shed for me,
and raise me to new life for the glory of your name.

or

Lord God, in your goodness have mercy on me:
do not look on my sins, but take away all my guilt.
Create in me a clean heart and renew within me an upright spirit.

or

Lord Jesus, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Now if this isn’t recognizing one’s sins and asking the Lord in, I don’t know what is!

 

[JoeyWarren]

Holy means set apart not sinless.

Set Apart?

**H6944
**קדשׁ
qôdesh
*ko’-desh
*From H6942; a sacred place or thing; rarely abstractly *sanctity: - *consecrated (thing), dedicated (thing), hallowed (thing), holiness, (X most) holy (X day, portion, thing), saint, sanctuary.

**G40
**ἅγιος
hagios
*hag’-ee-os
*From ἅγος hagos (an awful thing) compare G53, [H2282]; sacred (physically pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially consecrated): - (most) holy (one, thing), saint.

Rev 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, LORD God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

 

[Gamera]

they are holy and set apart. but they still have to deal with the sin issue both personal and original. this can only be done through repentance

A baby is born bearing the stain of original sin. That alone will exclude them from heaven, correct? That’s the whole point of original sin, that we are not born in a state of God’s grace, right? So a baby who dies cannot enter heaven because one can eliminate original sin “only” through repentance, according to your view. Right?

On the other hand, if babies can enter heaven, then by definition, there is something other than repentance that gets them in, right?

 

[Teflon93]

By your definition, who in the church is holy?
Who in the church is sinless, save Jesus?.
By your definition no one can be holy because everyone has sinned.
So you see Holiness does not mean sinless.

The Rite of Penance restores us to holiness.

Far from throwing a cloak over filth, Catholics have the stain of sin utterly removed through baptism and Confession.

 

[Teflon93]

A baby is born bearing the stain of original sin. That alone will exclude them from heaven, correct? That’s the whole point of original sin, that we are not born in a state of God’s grace, right? So a baby who dies cannot enter heaven because one can eliminate original sin “only” through repentance, according to your view. Right?

On the other hand, if babies can enter heaven, then by definition, there is something other than repentance that gets them in, right?

Indeed, in Misslollipops’ formulation, a baby would have to be born in grace, possessing salvation as a result, then lose grace and salvation sometime between infancy and the age of consent (whenever that is), then regain it sometime thereafter.

That adds up to a whole lot of damned children in the meantime, when one considers the odds against living to adulthood throughout much of human history.

 

[maurin]

Holy means set apart not sinless.

another strawman! wonderful! perfectly consistent!

Let’s concentrate on your comment from Romans, which was the crux of my post: All have sinned.

Jesus has sinned? Children who have not yet reached the age of reason have sinned?

Let us keep our eyes on the ball misslollipops, shall we?

 

[JoeyWarren]

me be thunking dat de ball be moving doo fast?

 

[maurin]

Set Apart?

**H6944
**קדשׁ
qôdesh
*ko’-desh
*From H6942; a sacred place or thing; rarely abstractly *sanctity: - *consecrated (thing), dedicated (thing), hallowed (thing), holiness, (X most) holy (X day, portion, thing), saint, sanctuary.

**G40
**ἅγιος
hagios
*hag’-ee-os
*From ἅγος hagos (an awful thing) compare G53, [H2282]; sacred (physically pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially consecrated): - (most) holy (one, thing), saint.

Rev 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, LORD God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

and for a secular definition, see here

Misslollipops,

are you making things up as you go along?

misslollipops:

Holy means set apart not sinless

 

[Teflon93]

me be thunking dat de ball be moving doo fast?

Not really—Misslollipops has an impossible argument to uphold, one which is internally inconsistent and unsupported by Scripture.

It is not her fault that it is—indeed, she’s forwarding the best arguments one possibly can for her position.

Adult baptism is an historical artifact of the Reformation, where a bit of grease was needed to pull people out of the Church into which they’d been baptized in an age where vows taken before God and Church meant something, at least to people with a greater moral wisdom than the Reformers possessed.

 

[Teflon93]

and for a secular definition, see here

Misslollipops,

are you making things up as you go along?

Set apart in the sense of a holy place is a valid definition of “holy” (I’ve included that definition from American Heritage Dictionary above); it’s just that she’s twisting it into another context unallowed by this definition.

Moreover, holy also means sinless in the sense that we associate it with godliness or saintliness.

 

[Philthy]

At some point the baby has to make a conscious decision to accept Jesus. A person is not born again until he makes the decision for himself. parents can’t do it for him.
That is what I’ve been saying from the beginning.

Yes you have and you have been mistaken for equally as long. A person is born again when they are baptized as an infant. That same person is born again when they “accept Jesus”. That same person is born again when, after committing mortal sin they repent and confess their sins.
As I said long ago your belief in OSAS precludes you from believing that a person can be saved/born again more than once.

 

[davidv]

By your definition, who in the church is holy?
Who in the church is sinless, save Jesus?.
By your definition no one can be holy because everyone has sinned.
So you see Holiness does not mean sinless.

Those declared Saints in heaven are holy. All will be holy when they reach heaven, for no sin can enter there.

You may not use the word that way, but that is not the common definition. So, if you use it that way without explanation, you will not be communicating effectively with us.

 

[Mt_28_19_20]

It’s actually not warm and fuzzy.
It is actually like you are a filthy sinner who broke your Father’s law. And the only way back is to repent. Think about the parable of the lost son. When he was with the pigs he realized his sin and what he needed to do.

Excellent point, for both us Catholics, and the Protestants, to remember. VociMike as usually has had some excellent posts as well, and might even point out Jn 1:27 "“It is He who comes after me, the thong of whose sandal I am not worthy to untie.” My apologies if you mention that in a later post.

Michael

 

[Gamera]

By your definition, who in the church is holy?
Who in the church is sinless, save Jesus?.
By your definition no one can be holy because everyone has sinned.
So you see Holiness does not mean sinless.

Every person in a state of grace is holy. At this particular moment, I am in a state of grace. That means I am holy. Not free of temptation, not perfect (just ask my wife), but holy. I didn’t make myself holy. Jesus’ shed blood did that when I went received the sacrament of reconciliation last Saturday. He forgave my sins and removed them from me. My sins are gone. His blood made me sinless.

If I again fall into mortal sin, I won’t be holy anymore. If I then return to grace, I will again be holy. Not perfect. Just holy.

 

[Indyann]

I stand by all three statements.
We are all sinners Rom 3:23 among other scriptures

The second statement was my opinion.

The third statement was my opinion.

I stand by all three

Proverbs 18:2 NIV

“A fool finds no pleasure in understanding but delights in airing his own opinions”

Maybe you should open your bible, Misslollipops. Or better yet, go online and read the Catechism of the Catholic Church.