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djrakowski
Guest
:yup: You’ve just described me in the latter part of my evangelical days.
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heisenburg
Guest
i am a little perplexed…
Great, so accepting jesus as your personal lord and savior isnt explicitly mentioned in that way in the bible…
But does any Catholic Deny that we have to accept him at a level that is more than just intellectual?
Am I Catholic?
Absolutely…
DO I have a problem when someone asks me if I have accepted him as my personal lord and savior?
Absolutely not…
I think where we as catholics part from some of our protestant brethren is when they say this is all you have to do… We say great, you believe in Christ Jesus, Follow him… do the works the God created us for, just keep in mind the works are for the Lord and not for us lest we boast.
Works do not come from a saving faith, almost like we are forced to do them, We still have to choose to do them… Our faith in the Trinity and his saving blood inspire us to do these works… Not because we are forced, but because we understand that this is what we are suppose to do. Works are simply one of many outward signs of someone who has ‘accepted him as his personal lord and Saviour’
As a note… Catholics Accept the Lord on the most personal level possible every Mass…Not just in some hi in the sky way that people ‘feel’, but physically, in the Eucharist
That being said…
Emotions do play a much larger role in protestant, and more so in fundi churches. If you don’t ‘feel’ it, it isn’t real… I don’t think protestants take it to the level some catholics think they do, but protestants cannot be honest and say that they do not preach a you have to feel it inside message. (again though, this is far more common in the lower churches. I listen to protestant radio stations daily… and daily i hear a different radio preacher talk about how we will ‘feel’ when we are saved.
To which i say…
Remember, even the bible says that the heart (ergo emotions) is the seed of deceit…
In Christ
Great, so accepting jesus as your personal lord and savior isnt explicitly mentioned in that way in the bible…
But does any Catholic Deny that we have to accept him at a level that is more than just intellectual?
Am I Catholic?
Absolutely…
DO I have a problem when someone asks me if I have accepted him as my personal lord and savior?
Absolutely not…
I think where we as catholics part from some of our protestant brethren is when they say this is all you have to do… We say great, you believe in Christ Jesus, Follow him… do the works the God created us for, just keep in mind the works are for the Lord and not for us lest we boast.
Works do not come from a saving faith, almost like we are forced to do them, We still have to choose to do them… Our faith in the Trinity and his saving blood inspire us to do these works… Not because we are forced, but because we understand that this is what we are suppose to do. Works are simply one of many outward signs of someone who has ‘accepted him as his personal lord and Saviour’
As a note… Catholics Accept the Lord on the most personal level possible every Mass…Not just in some hi in the sky way that people ‘feel’, but physically, in the Eucharist
That being said…
Emotions do play a much larger role in protestant, and more so in fundi churches. If you don’t ‘feel’ it, it isn’t real… I don’t think protestants take it to the level some catholics think they do, but protestants cannot be honest and say that they do not preach a you have to feel it inside message. (again though, this is far more common in the lower churches. I listen to protestant radio stations daily… and daily i hear a different radio preacher talk about how we will ‘feel’ when we are saved.
To which i say…
Remember, even the bible says that the heart (ergo emotions) is the seed of deceit…
In Christ
T
Teflon93
Guest
My wife as well. She really struggled because she’s naturally scrupulous, so any little fault would have her questioning her salvation. She would often be crying on the way home from our attending a Pentecostal service, this despite being a veritable saint, being in the choir, going to 4 services a week, praying constantly, reading the Bible, etc.
She’s far more at peace now, thank God.
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Church_Militant
Guest
Easy guys…
Disagree all ya please, but there’s no need to wax polemic.
Although I do think there is some measure of emotionalism in n-C services, and sometimes I think it’s overly fed into, I have to say that that is a natural part of the human response to God’s grace in our lives, though not a good reason to assert that one is saved.
The point is that it is (as Kerry Livgren said in his Kansas song “Carry On My Wayward Son”) “a stormy sea of moving emotion
Tossed about I’m like a ship on the ocean” and that is true for all of us, regardless of religion.
Our emotional responses to God’s love and grace are worthy and often reassuring/comforting, but they are not the basis for anyone’s salvation. I may feel cold and unloved and even lost, but does that change God’s love for me? Of course not!
I really don’t think that the majority of n-Cs base their thinking on salvation upon their emotions though…anymore than Charismatic Catholics do, and they are often every bit as emotional as any of the n-Cs I have seen in a service.
Disagree all ya please, but there’s no need to wax polemic.
Although I do think there is some measure of emotionalism in n-C services, and sometimes I think it’s overly fed into, I have to say that that is a natural part of the human response to God’s grace in our lives, though not a good reason to assert that one is saved.
The point is that it is (as Kerry Livgren said in his Kansas song “Carry On My Wayward Son”) “a stormy sea of moving emotion
Tossed about I’m like a ship on the ocean” and that is true for all of us, regardless of religion.
Our emotional responses to God’s love and grace are worthy and often reassuring/comforting, but they are not the basis for anyone’s salvation. I may feel cold and unloved and even lost, but does that change God’s love for me? Of course not!
I really don’t think that the majority of n-Cs base their thinking on salvation upon their emotions though…anymore than Charismatic Catholics do, and they are often every bit as emotional as any of the n-Cs I have seen in a service.
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djrakowski
Guest
:clapping: Very nicely written, heisenburg!
Our evangelical brothers and sisters may be surprised to hear this, but our priest often introduces the Penitential Rite with words similar to this: “Let us now invite Jesus Christ into our hearts as our personal Lord and Savior, asking him to forgive our sins and bring us to repentance.”
Thus, we make Jesus Christ our personal Lord and Savior by doing as the scriptures say - believing in Him, and obeying His commands.
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Teflon93
Guest
Absolutely. Jesus Christ is my personal savior. He is also the savior of the world.
I have a personal relationship with him, through prayer, and through the Eucharist. This relationship is possible through the sacraments he instituted on our behalf, beginning with baptism, proceeding with confirmation, with penance, right on through Last Rites.
I have been born again in Christ, and I am a Catholic.
I have a personal relationship with him, through prayer, and through the Eucharist. This relationship is possible through the sacraments he instituted on our behalf, beginning with baptism, proceeding with confirmation, with penance, right on through Last Rites.
I have been born again in Christ, and I am a Catholic.
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djrakowski
Guest
Perhaps you’ve hit upon part of the problem in the difference in types of language used by evangelicals as compared to Catholics. Have you noticed how evangelicals use the terms ‘my Lord’ and ‘my Personal Lord and Savior,’ while Catholics are more likely to speak of ‘Our Lord?’ Our language tends to emphasize the salvation offered to all mankind by Our Lord, and theirs tends to emphasize the salvation offered to each individual. Neither is particularly right or wrong, but rather points to a difference in emphasis that may be leading to some degree of confusion between us.
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myfavoritmartin
Guest
Heisenburg,
It’s not a feeling…its a KNOWledge! and NO evangelic church that I’ve gone to preaches anything about said “feeling”.
NOW mind you that may be true in the far charismatic pentecostal I can not speak for them! always remember Satan can duplicate emotions and or pious feelings…He can’t duplicate the fruit of the spirit!
M
myfavoritmartin
Guest
No its not, Our Lord can open every door in our Life except the one to Him that is for us to “knock” on.
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djrakowski
Guest
I wonder if Tef was referring to the irony of faith-only Christians claiming that a work - that of accepting Christ as personal Lord and Savior (not merely with words, as Simon was correct to point out in a previous post, but by also handing over your life to Him) - is necessary for salvation.
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myfavoritmartin
Guest
I agree that people go to ridiculous lengths to make our point which is simply, Salvation is by the work of Christ on the cross and our faith is what is sufficient to bring us into Christ family, and we are born again when we’ve actually actually accepted that fact and Jesus became the LORD of our lives.
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Teflon93
Guest
That was precisely my point. By emphasizing what we must do to be saved, it’s easy to forget it is God performing the active role.
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Teflon93
Guest
Which does bring up an interesting question:
Can we be saved against our will?
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heisenburg
Guest
Greetings to you in Christ Martin…
If you’ve never been in a church that teaches that, be thankful
Sad part is though i have seen it a lot. some from pentecostal, some from Calvary Chapel types, Baptists, etc…
And you are right, it is about knowing, but in a different way other than emotions… Scripture says we can test ourselves against scripture to see if we are truely in God’s good grace. However, if you don’t pass the test that scripture says you can take, you have lost the gift God freely gave you.
One of the nice things about being a Christian though is if you become lost, all you need is a good, soul cleaning repentance and confession of your sins and you are once again back on track…
To you in Christ
Not a thing i disagree with
If you’ve never been in a church that teaches that, be thankful
Sad part is though i have seen it a lot. some from pentecostal, some from Calvary Chapel types, Baptists, etc…And you are right, it is about knowing, but in a different way other than emotions… Scripture says we can test ourselves against scripture to see if we are truely in God’s good grace. However, if you don’t pass the test that scripture says you can take, you have lost the gift God freely gave you.
One of the nice things about being a Christian though is if you become lost, all you need is a good, soul cleaning repentance and confession of your sins and you are once again back on track…
To you in Christ
M
myfavoritmartin
Guest
i do not know, do you?
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Teflon93
Guest
My own opinion is that God can do anything, but God gives us free will and does not often overrule it.
So possibly, yes. Practically, no.
God grants us His sufficient grace whether we desire it or no, and we must use it or not use it to become sanctified.
Once He has given it to us, we have His righteousness written upon our hearts and thus naturally abhor sin, but as we see so often our will is able to overcome much that we abhor.
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Gamera
Guest
Yes, Jesus saved us. What I said was, I wonder if anyone can quote any pre-reformation Christian as saying that they “accepted Jesus as personal Savior.” This quotation from Polycarp isn’t even close.
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Teflon93
Guest
To some extent that would be a very alien thought process for the ECFs. After all, they didn’t have modern Western notions of the primacy of the individual.
I would imagine it would be far more natural for them to say that Christ died for “our” sins rather than “my” sins, for “us” rather than “me”, in that regard.
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Randy_Carson
Guest
And since Polycarp was 86 years old at the time, I guess he was baptized as an infant.
Now concerning being born again, not one ECF ever identified John 3:5 as referring to anything other than water baptism. Not one.
Justin Martyr
As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, and instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we pray and fast with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God the Father . . . and of our Savior Jesus Christ and of the Holy Spirit [Matt. 28:19], they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, “Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven” (*First Apology *61 [A.D. 151]).
Irenaeus
“And [Naaman] dipped himself . . . seven times in the Jordan” [2 Kgs. 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as newborn babes, even as the Lord has declared: “Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven” (Fragment 34 [A.D. 190]).
Tertullian
No one can attain salvation without baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says, “Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life” (Baptism 12:1 [A.D. 203]).
Hippolytus
The Father of immortality sent the immortal Son and Word into the world, who came to man in order to wash him with water and the Spirit; and he, begetting us again to incorruption of soul and body, breathed into us the Spirit of life, and endued us with an incorruptible panoply. If, therefore, man has become immortal, he will also be God. And if he is made God by water and the Holy Spirit after the regeneration of the laver he is found to be also joint-heir with Christ after the resurrection from the dead (*Discourse on the Holy Theophany *8 [A.D. 217]).
The Recognitions of Clement
But you will perhaps say, “What does the baptism of water contribute toward the worship of God?” In the first place, because that which has pleased God is fulfilled. In the second place, because when you are regenerated and born again of water and of God, the frailty of your former birth, which you have through men, is cut off, and so . . . you shall be able to attain salvation; but otherwise it is impossible. For thus has the true prophet [Jesus] testified to us with an oath: “Verily, I say to you, that unless a man is born again of water . . . he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven” (*The Recognitions of Clement *6:9 [A.D. 221]).
Cyprian
[When] they receive also the baptism of the Church . . . then finally can they be fully sanctified and be the sons of God . . . since it is written, “Except a man be born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God” (*Letters *71[72]:1 [A.D. 253]).
Council of Carthage VII
And in the gospel our Lord Jesus Christ spoke with his divine voice, saying, “Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” . . . Unless therefore they receive saving baptism in the Catholic Church, which is one, they cannot be saved, but will be condemned with the carnal in the judgment of the Lord Christ (VII Carthage [A.D. 256]).
(cont.)
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Randy_Carson
Guest
Cyril
Since man is of a twofold nature, composed of body and soul, the purification also is twofold: the corporeal for the corporeal and the incorporeal for the incorporeal. The water cleanses the body, and the Spirit seals the soul. . . . When you go down into the water, then, regard not simply the water, but look for salvation through the power of the Spirit. For without both you cannot attain to perfection. It is not I who says this, but the Lord Jesus Christ, who has the power in this matter. And he says, “Unless a man be born again,” and he adds the words “of water and of the Spirit,” “he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” He that is baptized with water, but is not found worthy of the Spirit, does not receive the grace in perfection. Nor, if a man be virtuous in his deeds, but does not receive the seal by means of the water, shall he enter the kingdom of heaven. A bold saying, but not mine; for it is Jesus who has declared it (Catechetical Lectures 3:4 [A.D. 350]).
Basil
This then is what it means to be “born again of water and Spirit”: Just as our dying is effected in the water [Rom. 6:3; Col. 2:12-13], our living is wrought through the Spirit. In three immersions and an equal number of invocations the great mystery of baptism is completed in such a way that the type of death may be shown figuratively, and that by the handing on of divine knowledge the souls of the baptized may be illuminated. If, therefore, there is any grace in the water, it is not from the nature of water, but from the Spirit’s presence there (The Holy Spirit 15:35 [A.D. 375]).
Ambrose
Although we are baptized with water and the Spirit, the latter is much superior to the former and is not therefore to be separated from the Father and the Son. There are, however, many who, because we are baptized with water and the Spirit, think that there is no difference in the offices of water and the Spirit, and therefore think that they do not differ in nature. Nor do they observe that we are buried in the element of water that we may rise again renewed by the Spirit. For in the water is the representation of death, in the Spirit is the pledge of life, that the body of sin may die through the water, which encloses the body as it were in a kind of tomb, that we, by the power of the Spirit, may be renewed from the death of sin, being born again in God (The Holy Spirit 1:6[75-76] [A.D. 381]).
Gregory of Nyssa
[In] the birth by water and the Spirit, [Jesus] himself led the way in this birth, drawing down upon the water, by his own baptism, the Holy Spirit; so that in all things he became the firstborn of those who are spiritually born again, and gave the name of brethren to those who partook in a birth like to his own by water and the Spirit (*Against Eunomius *2:8 [A.D. 382]).
Gregory Nazianzen
Such is the grace and power of baptism; not an overwhelming of the world as of old, but a purification of the sins of each individual, and a complete cleansing from all the bruises and stains of sin. And since we are double-made, I mean of body and soul, and the one part is visible, the other invisible, so the cleansing also is twofold, by water and the Spirit; the one received visibly in the body, the other concurring with it invisibly and apart from the body; the one typical, the other real and cleansing the depths (Oration on Holy Baptism 7-8 [A.D. 388]).
The Apostolic Constitutions
He that out of contempt will not be baptized shall be condemned as an unbeliever and shall be reproached as ungrateful and foolish. For the Lord says, “Except a man be baptized of water and of the Spirit, he shall by no means enter into the kingdom of heaven.” And again, “He that believes and is baptized shall be saved, but he that believes not shall be damned” [Mark 16:16] (Apostolic Constitutions 6:3:15 [A.D. 400]).
Augustine
It is this one Spirit who makes it possible for an infant to be regenerated . . . when that infant is brought to baptism; and it is through this one Spirit that the infant so presented is reborn. For it is not written, “Unless a man be born again by the will of his parents” or “by the faith of those presenting him or ministering to him,” but, “Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit.” The water, therefore, manifesting exteriorly the sacrament of grace, and the Spirit effecting interiorly the benefit of grace, both regenerate in one Christ that man who was generated in Adam (*Letters *98:2 [A.D. 412]).
Since man is of a twofold nature, composed of body and soul, the purification also is twofold: the corporeal for the corporeal and the incorporeal for the incorporeal. The water cleanses the body, and the Spirit seals the soul. . . . When you go down into the water, then, regard not simply the water, but look for salvation through the power of the Spirit. For without both you cannot attain to perfection. It is not I who says this, but the Lord Jesus Christ, who has the power in this matter. And he says, “Unless a man be born again,” and he adds the words “of water and of the Spirit,” “he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” He that is baptized with water, but is not found worthy of the Spirit, does not receive the grace in perfection. Nor, if a man be virtuous in his deeds, but does not receive the seal by means of the water, shall he enter the kingdom of heaven. A bold saying, but not mine; for it is Jesus who has declared it (Catechetical Lectures 3:4 [A.D. 350]).
Basil
This then is what it means to be “born again of water and Spirit”: Just as our dying is effected in the water [Rom. 6:3; Col. 2:12-13], our living is wrought through the Spirit. In three immersions and an equal number of invocations the great mystery of baptism is completed in such a way that the type of death may be shown figuratively, and that by the handing on of divine knowledge the souls of the baptized may be illuminated. If, therefore, there is any grace in the water, it is not from the nature of water, but from the Spirit’s presence there (The Holy Spirit 15:35 [A.D. 375]).
Ambrose
Although we are baptized with water and the Spirit, the latter is much superior to the former and is not therefore to be separated from the Father and the Son. There are, however, many who, because we are baptized with water and the Spirit, think that there is no difference in the offices of water and the Spirit, and therefore think that they do not differ in nature. Nor do they observe that we are buried in the element of water that we may rise again renewed by the Spirit. For in the water is the representation of death, in the Spirit is the pledge of life, that the body of sin may die through the water, which encloses the body as it were in a kind of tomb, that we, by the power of the Spirit, may be renewed from the death of sin, being born again in God (The Holy Spirit 1:6[75-76] [A.D. 381]).
Gregory of Nyssa
[In] the birth by water and the Spirit, [Jesus] himself led the way in this birth, drawing down upon the water, by his own baptism, the Holy Spirit; so that in all things he became the firstborn of those who are spiritually born again, and gave the name of brethren to those who partook in a birth like to his own by water and the Spirit (*Against Eunomius *2:8 [A.D. 382]).
Gregory Nazianzen
Such is the grace and power of baptism; not an overwhelming of the world as of old, but a purification of the sins of each individual, and a complete cleansing from all the bruises and stains of sin. And since we are double-made, I mean of body and soul, and the one part is visible, the other invisible, so the cleansing also is twofold, by water and the Spirit; the one received visibly in the body, the other concurring with it invisibly and apart from the body; the one typical, the other real and cleansing the depths (Oration on Holy Baptism 7-8 [A.D. 388]).
The Apostolic Constitutions
He that out of contempt will not be baptized shall be condemned as an unbeliever and shall be reproached as ungrateful and foolish. For the Lord says, “Except a man be baptized of water and of the Spirit, he shall by no means enter into the kingdom of heaven.” And again, “He that believes and is baptized shall be saved, but he that believes not shall be damned” [Mark 16:16] (Apostolic Constitutions 6:3:15 [A.D. 400]).
Augustine
It is this one Spirit who makes it possible for an infant to be regenerated . . . when that infant is brought to baptism; and it is through this one Spirit that the infant so presented is reborn. For it is not written, “Unless a man be born again by the will of his parents” or “by the faith of those presenting him or ministering to him,” but, “Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit.” The water, therefore, manifesting exteriorly the sacrament of grace, and the Spirit effecting interiorly the benefit of grace, both regenerate in one Christ that man who was generated in Adam (*Letters *98:2 [A.D. 412]).
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