How do Jews disagree with Jesus as the messiah?

[mercytruth]

I actually debated that issue with myself before posting before. I never know how much detail to post and how much to hold off on. I don’t want to be too boring, but want to give the info that you want.

Preface: The Hebrew word לשוב; “lashuv”, has multiple meanings. Among them are to repent as well as to physically return (similar concepts, since repenting is to return to G-d). The word תשובה;“Teshuva” is, among other things, the act of repentance or return.

In any case, the way Rabbi Abraham Isaac Kook explained it is like this:
***"Among the nations where the Lord your God has banished you, you will reflect on the situation. Then you will return up to the Lord your God… He will gather you from among the nations… and bring you to the land that your ancestors possessed.

“God will remove the barriers from your hearts… and you will repent and obey God, keeping all of His commandments… For you will return to the Lord your God with all your heart and soul.”*** (Deut. 30:1-10)
Twice, the verse states that “you will return to God.” Is there a purpose to this repetition? A careful reading reveals a slight discrepancy between the two phrases.

After reflection in the exile, the Jewish people will return to the land of their fathers. Here the text says, “you will return up to God,” using the Hebrew word עד; “ad”.

After returning to the Land of Israel and God removes the barriers of their hearts, they will learn to fully love God and keep His commandments. This time the Torah says, “you will return to God,” using the preposition אל; “el”.

How are these two types of national return different? What is the difference between ad and el?

The first teshuvah is the physical return to their homeland, to their language, and to their national essence. This is returning “up to God” — approaching, but not fully attaining. Thus the Torah uses the preposition ad, indicating a state of ‘up to, but not included in the category’. This is a genuine yet incomplete repentance, obscured by many veils.

After this initial return, the Jewish people will merit divine assistance that “will remove the barriers from your hearts.” This will enable the people to achieve the second stage of return, a full, complete teshuvah, all the way “to God.” This is an all-embracing return to God “with all your heart and soul.”

I hope that’s sufficient.

In light of what we are seeing with our own eyes and what has happened in the past few generations, I personally think that it makes more sense to see it in the Auschwitz to Israel terms that I mentioned earlier.

My point of citing this is that G-d isn’t returning us to the land of Israel because we deserve it, but rather for His own glory.

I think that what is happening with the Jews; the return to Israel and re-establishment of the state, has presented the Church with a dilemma, and please correct me if I’m wrong.

We have a theological explanation of it, but the Church doesn’t seem to relate to it in those terms.

That do you think?

Your responses to Deut.30, Ezek 37, & Ezek. 36 are very satisfactory. I really do appreciate your patience.

I definitely think the establishment of the State of Israel does pose a theological dilemna for the Roman Catholic and the Orthodox Churches.

They are not a thelological dilemna for myself. The last thing that the disciples asked Jesus before he ascended in the Shekinah glory cloud was, 'will you at this time restore Israel to the kingdom?" His response was not of denial, but one where he said, 'the time is for the Father in heaven to know".

Do you think that when Messiah comes, creation will be restored as spoken of by the prophet Isaiah?

Thank you, and shalom

micah

 

[router123]

yeah jews have a hard time accep Jesus Christ out savior as their messiah. quiet a history there

 

[YKohen]

I really do appreciate your patience.

And here, my wife says I have none…

I definitely think the establishment of the State of Israel does pose a theological dilemna for the Roman Catholic and the Orthodox Churches.

They are not a thelological dilemna for myself. The last thing that the disciples asked Jesus before he ascended in the Shekinah glory cloud was, 'will you at this time restore Israel to the kingdom?" His response was not of denial, but one where he said, 'the time is for the Father in heaven to know".

As a believing Catholic, isn’t it an issue to differ with the Church? How do you think they will resolve it- if at all? It would mean a major change in the general way that many chapters and verses of the Bible are interpreted, from what I have read in these threads.

Do you think that when Messiah comes, creation will be restored as spoken of by the prophet Isaiah?

Could you please elaborate? I’m not sure I understand.

Thanks.

 

[mercytruth]

And here, my wife says I have none…

As a believing Catholic, isn’t it an issue to differ with the Church? How do you think they will resolve it- if at all? It would mean a major change in the general way that many chapters and verses of the Bible are interpreted, from what I have read in these threads.

Could you please elaborate? I’m not sure I understand.

Thanks.

Regardless, you have more patience than myself.

There is nothing unCatholic as referring to the scriptures and the early church fathers for understanding.

Some of the theology regarding the re-establishment of the people of Israel has to do with the parable of the vineyard as given by Jesus in Matthew 21. Too many times, the assumption is made that Jesus was speaking to the Jewish people in perpetuity. He was speaking to the religious leaders of his day, and was speaking of the destruction of the Temple.

When Bar Kochba rebelled agaist Ceasar and the Roman Empire it brought about a complete diaspora of the Jewish people. This also was assumed to be in perpetuity.

When Christianity was finally embraced by Emperor Constantine and the persecution of the Church came to an end within the confines of the Roman Empire, there might have been an exuberance to assume that the kingdom of God had come to the earth.

I believe these are assumptions, not only myself, but one can find early church fathers who believed that Jerusalem would be restored, and there would be a periond of Sabbath rest for one thousand years.

Which leads me to quote from Isaiah as other church fathers did regarding a time when the earth is restored to its Eden like state.

**The wolf will live with the lamb,the leopard will lie down with the goat,
the calf and the lion and the yearling together;and a little child will lead them.
The cow will feed with the bear,their young will lie down together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox. The infant will play near the hole of the cobra,
and the young child put his hand into the viper’s nest. They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,for the earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord
as the waters cover the sea. ** (Isaiah 11:6-9)

This why I ask you the question, I am interested to know from your faith perspective.

shalom

micah

 

[joe370]

Originally Posted by YKohen
After the 10 tribes of Israel were exiled and dispersed, the remaining tribe was Judah, which is why were are all referred to as “Jews” today. But Levi (including the priestly descendants of Aaron) didn’t have a portion of the land. We lived dispersed among the tribes,so some of us also are around now.

Hey YK, I’ll check out that link for sure.

'For this is what the Lord says: ‘David will never fail to have a man to sit on the throne of Israel, nor will the Levitical priests ever fail to have a man to stand before me continually to offer burnt offerings, to burn grain offerings and to present sacrifices. ’”Jeremiah 33

If there is no existing Levitical priesthood then what does that say about God’s promise?

 

[joe370]

YKohen
Again, those verses are very general regarding the messianic era. For how exactly it all unfolds, the sequence of events, etc., we will have to wait until it happens.

But in terms of Jesus specifically, I would respectfully argue that the exact opposite of many of the messianic prophesies of the Bible occurred in his time: The Temple was destroyed, the cities were destroyed, the nation of Israel brought low- exiled and scattered to the 4 corners ofthe earth, war and tragedy to the nation of Israel, etc.

The exact opposite? Perhaps I misunderstood. Jesus predicted that the temple would be destroyed and the city sadly, brought low - exiled and scattered to the 4 corners of the earth.

 

[johnnyjones]

I have heard some say that the Greeks were smart people and there was enough time (400 years) to write the NT story and fill it in with all the prophesies from the OT. That would be some powerful intellect though. I can’ t see it. The life, death and ressurrection of Jesus is too nuanced. Every’ T’ is crossed and ‘I’ dotted.

 

[joe370]

YKohen;9707873]Not that I am aware of.

Hey YK, Perhaps you are right about Matthew regarding the conclusion that Jesus might not be the long-awaited Davidic king due to the fact that Joseph was only Jesus’ adoptive father, although nothing is etched in stone as we have seen with the Levite priest scenario. Ironically, Jesus could not have been the Messiah if He had been the biological Son of Joseph due to the curse. An argument could be made that Matthew’s genealogy illustrates exactly why Jesus could not be king if he really was Joseph’s biological son which is why Matthew follows the genealogy up with the following:

*All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: “The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel” (which means “God with us”.
*
The argument goes, since Jesus was not a descendant of David through his father Joseph, Jesus therefore cannot be the long-awaited Messiah and King of the Jews and Gentiles. However, the long awaited Messiah, as opposed to the traditional kings and messiahs e.g. Ahab and Hezikiah, Jeconiah etc. was supposed to be different. As early as Genesis 3:15, (“And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers”) we see a unique figure emerging already who would be reckoned after the “seed of the woman,” and this of course went contrary to the biblical norm - correct? Seed comes from the man. The necessity for this exception to the rule, realized, becomes even more apparent when we look at the prophesy of Isaiah 7:14, (something not embraced by my Jewish brothers and sisters) but it was by Rabbi’s early on, something I learned form a Jewish friend of mine:

“Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call his name Immanuel.”

We know that it was common practice for all other Davidic kings to receive their humanity from both father and mother. However, it does seem plausible that the long-awaited Davidic king and Messiah (the figure of Genesis 3:15) would receive his humanity entirely from his mother as per the preceding verses. Of course we agree that the Jewish nationality and tribal identity were normally determined by the father, but we can also imagine that the Messiah from God, would be different; he would be God as per scripture.

“For the time is coming,” says the LORD, "when** I will raise up** a righteous descendant from King David’s line. He will be a King who rules with wisdom. He will do what is just and right throughout the land.

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the greatness of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David’s throne and over his kingdom establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever.

In view of the fact that he was to have no human father, his nationality and his tribal identity would logically come entirely from his mother, with His Father being, well, you know.

Your thoughts friend…

 

[Kaninchen]

Hey YK, I’ll check out that link for sure.

'For this is what the Lord says: ‘David will never fail to have a man to sit on the throne of Israel, nor will the Levitical priests ever fail to have a man to stand before me continually to offer burnt offerings, to burn grain offerings and to present sacrifices. ’”Jeremiah 33

If there is no existing Levitical priesthood then what does that say about God’s promise?

It’s a question of lineage rather than action.

Consider Jeremiah/Babylon/destruction of the First Temple/Exile, there was a hiatus until the building of the Second Temple but the line continued. Temple sacrifices require a Temple but, even in its absence, the Levitical line continues.

 

[Kaninchen]

The exact opposite? Perhaps I misunderstood. Jesus predicted that the temple would be destroyed and the city sadly, brought low - exiled and scattered to the 4 corners of the earth.

Allegedly.

 

[joe370]

It’s a question of lineage rather than action.

Consider Jeremiah/Babylon/destruction of the First Temple/Exile, there was a hiatus until the building of the Second Temple but the line continued. Temple sacrifices require a Temple but, even in its absence, the Levitical line continues.

I agree. Where is the promised Levitical priests of the OT?

…nor will the Levitical priests ever fail to have a man to stand before me continually to offer burnt offerings, to burn grain offerings and to present sacrifices. ’”Jeremiah 33

 

[joe370]

Allegedly.

LOL…

 

[Kaninchen]

I agree. Where is the promised Levitical priests of the OT?

…nor will the Levitical priests ever fail to have a man to stand before me continually to offer burnt offerings, to burn grain offerings and to present sacrifices. ’”Jeremiah 33

It’s ‘line’ in a hereditary sense.

“Nor shall there ever be an end to the line of the levitical priests . . .”

ie the Kohanim.

 

[gmcbroom]

Dear Chosen People, where can one find those 6 criterion concerning the messiah? Is it in the Talmud? Is it spread through out the Old Testament or Torah? Is it just oral tradiotion, or is it written somewhere?

 

[RobbyS]

I have heard some say that the Greeks were smart people and there was enough time (400 years) to write the NT story and fill it in with all the prophesies from the OT. That would be some powerful intellect though. I can’ t see it. The life, death and ressurrection of Jesus is too nuanced. Every’ T’ is crossed and ‘I’ dotted.

Where did someone get 400 years? The Gospels were probably written within the first thirty years after Jesus’ mission.

 

[RobbyS]

The Karaites would disagree on viability.

I’d, obviously, disagree on the question of whether Christianity is a ‘form’ of Judaism and the real cataclysm/diaspora followed the defeat of the Bar Kokhba revolt (135 CE). The diaspora was throughout the Roman World.

The most serious uprising was during Trajan’s time. The Jews of the diaspora rose up and required the Romans to withdraw from Mesopotamia. Bar Kochba’s revolt was just the final effort to get political freedom. About the Romans vs. The Persians. People seem not to know how important they were to the fate of the Empire. The last wars led to the final devastation of the great cities of the Middle East. It is probably that the Muslims sided with the Persians and then profited from fighting among the Persians, and probably as auxilaries rather than principals, conquered Egypt. and then took over the government of the Persians empire. They then took to the seas and launched an all-out assault on the remains of the Byzantine Empire. In a way, the Jews were fortunate they did not have their own state, but were able to adapt in small groups to the new order of thing. The ferocity of Muslim piracy in the Med is hard to grasp. They opened up a huge slave trade, obtaining slaves from the Christian lands either by raiding and/or in collaboration with the Vikings. That’s how, eventually, the Vikings were able to establish a base in Sicily.

 

[joe370]

It’s ‘line’ in a hereditary sense.

“Nor shall there ever be an end to the line of the levitical priests . . .”

ie the Kohanim.

Passing naturally from parent to offspring through the genes…OK.

I was just wondering: if the following passage is scriptural then where is the promised Levitical priesthood of the OT, in the world today?

…nor will the Levitical priests ever fail to have a man to stand before me continually to offer burnt offerings, to burn grain offerings and to present sacrifices. ’”Jeremiah

 

[YKohen]

Regardless, you have more patience than myself.

If so, I pity your spouse and kids.

There is nothing unCatholic as referring to the scriptures and the early church fathers for understanding.

Some of the theology regarding the re-establishment of the people of Israel has to do with the parable of the vineyard as given by Jesus in Matthew 21. Too many times, the assumption is made that Jesus was speaking to the Jewish people in perpetuity. He was speaking to the religious leaders of his day, and was speaking of the destruction of the Temple.

When Bar Kochba rebelled agaist Ceasar and the Roman Empire it brought about a complete diaspora of the Jewish people. This also was assumed to be in perpetuity.

When Christianity was finally embraced by Emperor Constantine and the persecution of the Church came to an end within the confines of the Roman Empire, there might have been an exuberance to assume that the kingdom of God had come to the earth.

I believe these are assumptions, not only myself, but one can find early church fathers who believed that Jerusalem would be restored, and there would be a periond of Sabbath rest for one thousand years.

Interesting.

Which leads me to quote from Isaiah as other church fathers did regarding a time when the earth is restored to its Eden like state.

**The wolf will live with the lamb,the leopard will lie down with the goat,
the calf and the lion and the yearling together;and a little child will lead them.
The cow will feed with the bear,their young will lie down together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox. The infant will play near the hole of the cobra,
and the young child put his hand into the viper’s nest. They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,for the earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord
as the waters cover the sea. ** (Isaiah 11:6-9)

This why I ask you the question, I am interested to know from your faith perspective.

shalom

micah

Our generally accepted belief is that the above is a parable, meaning that the nation of Israel will live in peace. If you take a look at Jeremiah 5:6, our enemies are described as such:
A wolf from the wilderness shall spoil them and a leopard will stalk their cities…
And we are likened to a lamb, a flock, etc. in numerous places throughout the Bible besides Isaiah 11:

• Even as a shepherd that feedeth his flock, that gathereth the lambs in his arm, and carrieth them in his bosom, and gently leadeth those that give suck. (Isaiah 40:11)
• He was oppressed, though he humbled himself and opened not his mouth; as a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and as a sheep that before her shearers is dumb; yea, he opened not his mouth. (Isaiah 53:7)
• The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the ox; and dust shall be the serpent’s food. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain, saith the LORD. (Isaiah 65:25)
• For Israel is stubborn like a stubborn heifer; now shall the LORD feed them as a lamb in a large place? (Hosea 4:16)

And others places as well.

What is the Christian belief?

 

[YKohen]

The exact opposite?

I presented a list of Biblical prophesies regarding the messianic era and what the we believe messiah will do. What I was saying is that Jesus didn’t do them- in fact, the opposite happened then.

 

[Kaninchen]

Passing naturally from parent to offspring through the genes…OK.

I was just wondering: if the following passage is scriptural then where is the promised Levitical priesthood of the OT, in the world today?

…nor will the Levitical priests ever fail to have a man to stand before me continually to offer burnt offerings, to burn grain offerings and to present sacrifices. ’”Jeremiah

Well, I know I messed up the Rabbi Singer link first time but I did re-post it. Perhaps you might read it?