How do Jews disagree with Jesus as the messiah?

[joe370]

YKohen

“list of Biblical prophesies regarding the messianic era and what the we believe messiah will do. What I was saying is that Jesus didn’t do them- in fact, the opposite happened then.”

So, the preceding is a reference to Jesus failing to correctly prophesy that the Temple would be destroyed or that the cities would be destroyed and the nation of Israel brought low- exiled and scattered to the 4 corners of the earth…? Or, are you referring to prophecies other than the temple, etc…that Jesus failed to correctly prophesy?

If I overlooked them I apologies, but could you share those prophesies that Jesus failed to correctly prophesy?

 

[joe370]

Well, I know I messed up the Rabbi Singer link first time but I did re-post it. Perhaps you might read it?

My apologies. I didn’t realize that your answer was to found in that link. I will check it out right now my friend.

 

[Kaninchen]

So, the preceding is a reference to Jesus failing to correctly prophesy that the Temple would be destroyed or that the cities would be destroyed and the nation of Israel brought low- exiled and scattered to the 4 corners of the earth…?

It’s ‘lit crit’ time again.

 

[joe370]

It’s ‘lit crit’ time again.

Nah…Just good ol’ friendly debate between forum friends.

 

[Kaninchen]

Nah…Just good ol’ friendly debate between forum friends.

Oh, I was just doing TV Courtroom “Objection, Your Honour, Prosecution counsel is trying to . . . .”

 

[joe370]

oh, i was just doing tv courtroom “objection, your honour, prosecution counsel is trying to . . . .”

oh…lol…:d

 

[joe370]

I presented a list of Biblical prophesies regarding the messianic era and what the we believe messiah will do. What I was saying is that Jesus didn’t do them- in fact, the opposite happened then.

Is this the correct criteria regarding the expected fulfilled prophecies by the Jewish Messiah. Please correct me if I am wrong and add to if I have missed any:

1. The Messiah must be Jewish.
2. He must be a member of the tribe of Judah and a direct male descendent of King David
3. He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel, re-establishing the national kingdom of Israel as a nation, making it the powerful center of the entire world, ushering in world peace.
4. He will rebuild the Temple on earth and re-establish its worship (animal sacrifice). He will restore the religious court system of Israel and establish Jewish law as the law of the land.
5. He will influence the entire world to acknowledge and serve one God via the national kingdom of Israel on earth.
6. The Messiah will live and thrive in our present world, not die on the cross for our sins.
7. He will not be a prophet or a Savior of the world.
8. He will be a great political and military leader (like king David) descended from King David who will bring peace to the world as David did in his city.

 

[YKohen]

…nothing is etched in stone as we have seen with the Levite priest scenario.

I think Kaninchen cleared that one up.

The argument goes, since Jesus was not a descendant of David through his father Joseph, Jesus therefore cannot be the long-awaited Messiah and King of the Jews and Gentiles.

True. That would exclude him before debating whether or not he fulfilled what the Bible says will be in the messianic era.

However, the long awaited Messiah, as opposed to the traditional kings and messiahs e.g. Ahab and Hezikiah, Jeconiah etc. was supposed to be different.

On this, we disagree.

As early as Genesis 3:15, (“And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers”) we see a unique figure emerging already who would be reckoned after the “seed of the woman,” and this of course went contrary to the biblical norm - correct? Seed comes from the man.

Take a look at the verse WITH the verse before:
***14. And the Lord God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, cursed be you more than all the cattle and more than all the beasts of the field; you shall walk on your belly, and you shall eat dust all the days of your life.

1. And I shall place hatred between you and between the woman, and between your offspring and between her offspring. He will crush your head, and you will bite his heel."***

The original Hebrew word is זַרְעֲךָ, which can mean either “your seed” or “your offspring”.

The snake enticed the woman (Eve).G-d is simply telling the snake that because of what he did to entice her, her offspring and his offspring will hate each other. I think you’re reading something into the text that isn’t there.

The necessity for this exception to the rule, realized, becomes even more apparent when we look at the prophesy of Isaiah 7:14, (something not embraced by my Jewish brothers and sisters) but it was by Rabbi’s early on, something I learned form a Jewish friend of mine:

“Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call his name Immanuel.”

It was never embraced by rabbis. In fact, it’s another mistranslation- leading to another misinterpretation.
*Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign: behold, the young woman shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. *

The original Hebrew in the text is עַלְמָה; “alma”. The word “alma” is found a number of other places in the Bible; for instance:

• Genesis 24:43
• Exodus 2:8
• Proverbs 30:19

In fact, I just checked and even the Vulgate translates the verse in Exodus as a maid or young woman- not a virgin. And it completely leaves out the word in Proverbs!

We know that it was common practice for all other Davidic kings to receive their humanity from both father and mother.

Humanity? Absolutely. Lineage? Absolutely not. It was always ONLY from the father. And again; not just kings. This is the case with every Jew. For instance:

Numbers 1:2 ‘Take ye the sum of all the congregation of the children of Israel, by their families, by their fathers’ houses, according to the number of names, every male, by their polls.

 

[YKohen]

Passing naturally from parent to offspring through the genes…OK.

I was just wondering: if the following passage is scriptural then where is the promised Levitical priesthood of the OT, in the world today?

…nor will the Levitical priests ever fail to have a man to stand before me continually to offer burnt offerings, to burn grain offerings and to present sacrifices. ’”Jeremiah

And of the Levitic priests, there shall not be cut off from before Me a man offering up a burnt offering, or burning a meal-offering or performing a sacrifice for all time. (Jeremiah 33:18)

There shall not be cut off from the Levitic priests seed fit to offer up a burnt-offering or to burn a meal-offering.

And here I am today; ready, willing, and able; as soon as the Temple is rebuilt.

 

[YKohen]

So, the preceding is a reference to Jesus failing to correctly prophesy that the Temple would be destroyed or that the cities would be destroyed and the nation of Israel brought low- exiled and scattered to the 4 corners of the earth…? Or, are you referring to prophecies other than the temple, etc…that Jesus failed to correctly prophesy?

If I overlooked them I apologies, but could you share those prophesies that Jesus failed to correctly prophesy?

As per Biblical prophesy, the messiah is supposed to DO certain specific things. If not, he isn’t the messiah. Certain things are supposed to occur in the messianic era. Not only did they not happen in Jesus’ time, but in fact the exact opposite occurred.

 

[YKohen]

Is this the correct criteria regarding the expected fulfilled prophecies by the Jewish Messiah. Please correct me if I am wrong and add to if I have missed any:

1. The Messiah must be Jewish.
2. He must be a member of the tribe of Judah and a direct male descendent of King David
3. He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel, re-establishing the national kingdom of Israel as a nation, making it the powerful center of the entire world, ushering in world peace.
4. He will rebuild the Temple on earth and re-establish its worship (animal sacrifice). He will restore the religious court system of Israel and establish Jewish law as the law of the land.
5. He will influence the entire world to acknowledge and serve one God via the national kingdom of Israel on earth.
6. The Messiah will live and thrive in our present world, not die on the cross for our sins.
7. He will not be a prophet or a Savior of the world.
8. He will be a great political and military leader (like king David) descended from King David who will bring peace to the world as David did in his city.

You are adding Christian things to the Jewish list. I understand.

 

[joe370]

YKohen;9711907]I think Kaninchen cleared that one up.

I didn’t get the chance to check out that link; Could you sum up for me regarding my question about the Levite priesthood?

On this, we disagree.

Take a look at the verse WITH the verse before:***14. And the Lord God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, cursed be you more than all the cattle and more than all the beasts of the field; you shall walk on your belly, and you shall eat dust all the days of your life.

1. And I shall place hatred between you and between the woman, and between your offspring and between her offspring. He will crush your head, and you will bite his heel."***

Who is crushing the head and who is biting the heel of the crusher, first of all?

The complete Jewish Bible regarding Gen. 3:15:

chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/8167/jewish/Chapter-3.htm

“And I shall place hatred between you and between the woman, and between your seed and between her seed. He will crush your head, and you will bite his heel.”

There is no hatred between Satan and people per se simply because we do his work on some level by sinning. True enmity would occur between Satan and the woman who is not victim of Satans powers - right?

This passages speaks of an enmity between the serpent (Satan) who has just led Adam and Eve into sin, and a mysterious woman and her seed, who will bruise the serpent’s head. The Targum Jonathan and the Jerusalem Targum associate this passage with the days of the Messiah who will come and make peace between men at the end of days:

“And they [the sons of the woman] will finally make peace in the days of the Messiah-King.” (Gen 3:15, Targum Jonathan)

“They will make peace in the end, at the close of the end of the days, in the days of the Messiah King.” (Gen 3:15, Jerusalem Targum)

At first blush this prophesy about the Messiah who is the “seed of the woman” seems meaningless - for is not everyone born of a woman? At the same time, the idea also sounds odd because one’s seed usually comes from the father. Therefore the passage possibly hints at the fact that the one who will bruise the head of the serpent will receive his human “seed” from his mother rather than from his father. Jesus, “born of a woman” (the virgin Mary) without human father, was indeed the “seed of the woman” who came to defeat the ancient serpent (Satan) and establish peace between Jews and Gentiles,

I actually saw it this way as a former agnostic when I first started reading the bible.

 

[joe370]

You are adding Christian things to the Jewish list. I understand.

Sorry, what did I add? I am trying to see things though your eyes…

 

[joe370]

You are adding Christian things to the Jewish list. I understand.

I got these form a Jewish site by the way… I am taking off my catholic hat replacing it with my Jewish hat to get a clearer understanding…

 

[mercytruth]

If so, I pity your spouse and kids.

Interesting.

Our generally accepted belief is that the above is a parable, meaning that the nation of Israel will live in peace. If you take a look at Jeremiah 5:6, our enemies are described as such:
A wolf from the wilderness shall spoil them and a leopard will stalk their cities…
And we are likened to a lamb, a flock, etc. in numerous places throughout the Bible besides Isaiah 11:

• Even as a shepherd that feedeth his flock, that gathereth the lambs in his arm, and carrieth them in his bosom, and gently leadeth those that give suck. (Isaiah 40:11)
• He was oppressed, though he humbled himself and opened not his mouth; as a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and as a sheep that before her shearers is dumb; yea, he opened not his mouth. (Isaiah 53:7)
• The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the ox; and dust shall be the serpent’s food. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain, saith the LORD. (Isaiah 65:25)
• For Israel is stubborn like a stubborn heifer; now shall the LORD feed them as a lamb in a large place? (Hosea 4:16)

And others places as well.

What is the Christian belief?

Yes it is true, my wife and son are to be pitied for my lack of patience.

Regarding the restoration of creation, most of the early writings on this subject were within the first two centuries. The established church of today regards the writings of these early church authorities as those who inflated the ‘supposed words of Jesus’ by taking them as literal, when they should have been taken as parables.

One of such writings was quoted from Papias who was a disciple of one of the Apostle’s disciples. Here is the citation:

As the elders who saw John the disciple of the Lord remembered that they had heard from him how the Lord taught in regard to those times, and said]: “The days will come in which vines shall grow, having each ten thousand branches, and in each branch ten thousand twigs, and in each true twig ten thousand shoots, and in every one of the shoots ten thousand clusters, and on every one of the clusters ten thousand grapes, and every grape when pressed will give five-and-twenty metretes of wine. And when any one of the saints shall lay hold of a cluster, another shall cry out, ‘I am a better cluster, take me; bless the Lord through me.’ In like manner, [He said] that a grain of wheat would produce ten thousand ears, and that every ear would have ten thousand grains, and every grain would yield ten pounds of clear, pure, fine flour; and that apples, and seeds, and grass would produce in similar proportions; and that all animals, feeding then only on the productions of the earth, would become peaceable and harmonious, and be in perfect subjection to man.” [Testimony is borne to these things in writing by Papias, an ancient man, who was a hearer of John and a friend of Polycarp, in the fourth of his books; for five books were composed by him. And he added, saying, “Now these things are credible to believers. And Judas the traitor,” says he, “not believing, and asking, ‘How shall such growths be accomplished by the Lord.’ the Lord said, ‘They shall see who shall come to them.’ These, then, are the times mentioned by the prophet Isaiah: ‘And the wolf shall lie, down with the lamb,’ etc. Isaiah 11:6 ff…”]

newadvent.org/fathers/0125.htm

Presently, the only ones who actually believe that there will be a future restoration of God’s creation at the appearance of the Messiah are biblical Protestants who take a certain NT scripture literally, and regard it as a Sabbath rest of 1,000 years during which time earthly Jerusalem will be restored.

However, as I said, one can find at least a half a dozen early church authorities who believed this also. This concept was basically forsaken by the time Emperor Constantine converted to the Christian faith.

Just one example from Ireneaus from 120-200 AD:

**As the presbyters say, then those who are deemed worthy of an abode in heaven shall go there, others shall enjoy the delights of Paradise, and others shall possess the splendour of the city; for everywhere the Saviour will be seen, according as they shall be worthy who see Him. But that there is this distinction between the habitation of those who produce an hundred-fold, and that of those who produce sixty-fold, and that of those who produce thirty-fold; for the first will be taken up into the heavens, the second class will dwell in Paradise, and the last will inhabit the city; and that on this account the Lord said, “In my Father’s house are many mansions:” John 14:2 for all things belong to God, who supplies all with a suitable dwelling-place, even as His word says, that a share is given to all by the Father, according as each one is or shall be worthy. And this is the couch Matthew 22:10 in which they shall recline who feast, being invited to the wedding. The presbyters, the disciples of the apostles, say that this is the gradation and arrangement of those who are saved, and that they advance through steps of this nature; and that, moreover, they ascend through the Spirit to the Son, and through the Son to the Father; and that in due time the Son will yield up His work to the Father, even as it is said by the apostle, “For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.” 1 Corinthians 15:25-26 For in the times of the kingdom the just man who is on the earth shall forget to die. “But when He says all things are put under Him, it is manifest that He is excepted which did put all things under Him. And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him that put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.” 1 Corinthians 15:27-28 **

newadvent.org/fathers/0125.htm

There are two citations taken from our own scriptures which would indicate something similar:

Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets. Acts 3:21.

We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.(Rom.8:22-24)

The Catholic church teaches that there will be a new heavens and a new earth according to our scriptures and this will not happen with a restored earthly Jerusalem with a literally restored Israel. (As I understand Church teaching on this subject). As I have already stated, the early church authorities represent my understanding in the matter.

Especially this quotation from Justin Martyr in his converstaion with a Jewish man,named Trypho:

**Trypho: I remarked to you sir, that you are very anxious to be safe in all respects, since you cling to the Scriptures. But tell me, do you really admit that this place, Jerusalem, shall be rebuilt; and do you expect your people to be gathered together, and made joyful with Christ and the patriarchs, and the prophets, both the men of our nation, and other proselytes who joined them before your Christ came? Or have you given way, and admitted this in order to have the appearance of worsting us in the controversies?

Justin: I am not so miserable a fellow, Trypho, as to say one thing and think another. I admitted to you formerly, that I and many others are of this opinion, and [believe] that such will take place, as you assuredly are aware; but, on the other hand, I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise…But I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned, and enlarged, [as] the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare.**

newadvent.org/fathers/01286.htm

This has been a protracted answer to your question, I did not know how to abbreviate it.

shalom

micah

 

[YKohen]

I didn’t get the chance to check out that link; Could you sum up for me regarding my question about the Levite priesthood?

I did above in a post just to be sure.

Who is crushing the head and who is biting the heel of the crusher, first of all?

“And I shall place hatred between you and between the woman, and between your seed and between her seed. He will crush your head, and you will bite his heel.”

Mankind is crushing his head (interstingly enough, I did that a couple weeks ago when I came across a poisonous snake while hiking near my community), and the snake tries tobite our heels.

There is no hatred between Satan and people per se simply because we do his work on some level by sinning. True enmity would occur between Satan and the woman who is not victim of Satans powers - right?

This passages speaks of an enmity between the serpent (Satan) who has just led Adam and Eve into sin, and a mysterious woman and her seed, who will bruise the serpent’s head. The Targum Jonathan and the Jerusalem Targum associate this passage with the days of the Messiah who will come and make peace between men at the end of days:

“And they [the sons of the woman] will finally make peace in the days of the Messiah-King.” (Gen 3:15, Targum Jonathan)

“They will make peace in the end, at the close of the end of the days, in the days of the Messiah King.” (Gen 3:15, Jerusalem Targum)

1. There are many different levels on which one can interpret.
2. Sometimes an additional homiletic interpretation can be given- and it can be understood non-literally.
3. The Targum Yonatan certainly wasn’t Christian. Nor would he have interpreted it as you try to.

 

[YKohen]

I got these form a Jewish site by the way… I am taking off my catholic hat replacing it with my Jewish hat to get a clearer understanding…

Which Jewish site?

As I have mentioned, in Judaism, there is no dogma about exactly how things will unfold. Moses didn’t know the exact details about signs and wonders that G-d would perform, or even how they would cross the Red Sea. All the more so about us not understanding the exact way that the messianic era will unfold, in what order, etc.

Only that it will.

What Maimonides wrote was:

In the future, the Messianic king will arise and renew the Davidic dynasty, restoring it to its initial sovereignty. He will build the Temple and gather the dispersed of Israel.

Then, in his days, the observance of all the statutes will return to their previous state. We will offer sacrifices, observe the Sabbatical and Jubilee years according to all their particulars as described by the Torah.

Similarly, with regard to the cities of refuge, Deuteronomy 19:8-9 states: ‘When God will expand your borders… you must add three more cities.’ This command was never fulfilled. Surely, God did not give this command in vain.

One should not presume that the Messianic king must work miracles and wonders, bring about new phenomena in the world, resurrect the dead, or perform other similar deeds. This is definitely not true.

The main thrust of the matter is: This Torah, its statutes and its laws, are everlasting. We may not add to them or detract from them.

If a king will arise from the House of David who diligently contemplates the Torah and observes its mitzvot as prescribed by the Written Law and the Oral Law as David, his ancestor, will compel all of Israel to walk in (the way of the Torah) and rectify the breaches in its observance, and fight the wars of God, we may, with assurance, consider him Mashiach.

If he succeeds in the above, builds the Temple in its place, and gathers the dispersed of Israel, he is definitely the Mashiach.

He will then improve the entire world, motivating all the nations to serve God together, as Tzephaniah 3:9 states: ‘I will transform the peoples to a purer language that they all will call upon the name of God and serve Him with one purpose.’

If he did not succeed to this degree or was killed, he surely is not the redeemer promised by the Torah. Rather, he should be considered as all the other proper and complete kings of the Davidic dynasty who died. God caused him to arise only to test the many, as Daniel 11:35 states: ‘And some of the wise men will stumble, to try them, to refine, and to clarify until the appointed time, because the set time is in the future.’

Again, the overall messianic era includes:

• The Sanhedrin will be re-established (Isaiah 1:26)
• Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance (Isaiah 2:4)
• The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:17)
• He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via King Solomon (1 Chron. 22:8–10)
• The moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with “fear of God” (Isaiah 11:2)
• Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)
• Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)
• He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)
• All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12, Zechariah 10:6)
• Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)
• There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)
• All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)
• The house of David shall be as God (Zechariah 12:8)
• God will seek to destroy all the nations that go against Jerusalem (Zechariah 12:9, Isaiah 60:12)
• Israel and Judah will be made into one nation again (Zechariah 11:12-14, Ezekiel 37:16-22)
• The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)
• He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 53:7)
• Nations will recognize the wrongs they did Israel (Isaiah 52:13–53:5)
• The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)
• The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)
• Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)
• The Temple will be rebuilt (Ezekiel 40) resuming many of the suspended mitzvot
• He will then perfect the entire world to serve God together (Zephaniah 3:9)
• He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13–15, Ezekiel 36:29–30, Isaiah 11:6–9)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_eschatology#In_the_Tanakh_.28Hebrew_Bible.29

How exactly it plays out, we will only know when it happens.

 

[mercytruth]

Passing naturally from parent to offspring through the genes…OK.

I was just wondering: if the following passage is scriptural then where is the promised Levitical priesthood of the OT, in the world today?

…nor will the Levitical priests ever fail to have a man to stand before me continually to offer burnt offerings, to burn grain offerings and to present sacrifices. ’”Jeremiah

Besides the literal restoration of the Levitical priesthood, one must also consider the promise given to the Rechabites, descendants of Caleb, descendant of Judah
(I Chron 2:54):

Then Jeremiah said to the family of the Rekabites, “This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says: ‘You have obeyed the command of your forefather Jehonadab and have followed all his instructions and have done everything he ordered.’ Therefore this is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says: ‘Jehonadab son of Rekab will never fail to have a descendant to serve me.’” (Jeremiah 35:18-19)

Now the Rechabites were still serving the Lord during the time of James, bishop of Jerusalem according to Hegessipus, a Jewish believer (170 AD):

"And, while they were thus stoning him to death, one of the priests, the sons of Rachab, the son of Rechabim, to whom testimony is born by Jeremiah the prophet, began to cry aloud, saying: “Cease, what do ye? The just man is praying for us”.

(Fragment 1, writings of Hegesippus)

God’s peace

micah

 

[YKohen]

…The Catholic church teaches that there will be a new heavens and a new earth according to our scriptures and this will not happen with a restored earthly Jerusalem with a literally restored Israel. (As I understand Church teaching on this subject). As I have already stated, the early church authorities represent my understanding in the matter.

This has been a protracted answer to your question, I did not know how to abbreviate it.

shalom

micah

Thanks! If it would have been a 3-word answer, I would have been worried.

So it seems that you and the early Church authorities are on 1 proverbial side in terms of your understanding, and the modern Church is on the other. I hope that doesn’t make you a heretic in their eyes.

And with what you wrote being the case:

*The Catholic church teaches that there will be a new heavens and a new earth according to our scriptures and this will not *happen with a restored earthly Jerusalem with a literally restored Israel.

How does the Church explain the modern state of Israel from a theological perspective?

 

[joe370]

YKohen;9712049]Which Jewish site?

As I have mentioned, in Judaism, there is no dogma about exactly how things will unfold. Moses didn’t know the exact details about signs and wonders that G-d would perform, or even how they would cross the Red Sea. All the more so about us not understanding the exact way that the messianic era will unfold, in what order, etc.

Only that it will.

I do absolutely respect that, and will stop asking questions. I was just attempting to see things through your eyes… I think I understand now.

Peace my friend…