How do Mormons view Our Lady?

[Judas_Thaddeus]

Additionally, early temple ceremony (pre 1990) showed a Catholic priest as the agent of Satan

Are you sure? I heard Shawn McCraney on
his show “Heart of the Matter” that it was a
Protestant preacher, not a Catholic priest.
JUST CURIOUS!

I know what the LDS say about Catholics, but I am
not sure about the Temple film thing (you’re talking
about a film, yes?)

 

[invisible_man]

Additionally, Mormons used to not believe in Virgin Birth. They taught God had sex with Mary.

**

January 2, 1969

Bruce Bracken
Logan, Utah 84321

Dear Brother Bracken:

We are very much concerned that some of our Church teachers seem to be obsessed of the idea of teaching doctrine which cannot be substantiated and making comments beyond what the Lord has actually said.

You asked about the Immaculate Conception of the birth of the Savior. Never have I talked about “sexual intercourse” between Deity and the mother of the Savior. If teachers were wise in speaking of this matter about which the Lord has said but very little, they would rest their discussion on this subject with merely the words which are recorded on this subject by Luke 1:34-35:

“Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.”

Remember that that being who brought about the Immaculate Conception was a divine personage. We need not question his method to accomplish his purposes. Perhaps we would do well to remember the words of Isaiah 55:8-9:

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For us the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.”

Let the Lord rest His case with this declaration and wait until he sees fit to tell us more.**

fairlds.org/authors/misc/did-god-have-sex-with-mary

The above was written by Harold B. Lee, a Mormon leader. If you were taught that God had sex with Mary you were taught something false. I suppose teachers can make mistakes.

 

[Marie5890]

Are you sure? I heard Shawn McCraney on
his show “Heart of the Matter” that it was a
Protestant preacher, not a Catholic priest.
JUST CURIOUS!

I know what the LDS say about Catholics, but I am
not sure about the Temple film thing (you’re talking
about a film, yes?)

When I went thru pre-1990 my sense was that is was a generic pastor, ( Catholic or otherwise,) that was depicted.

Any kind of pastor that wore clerical garb.
My guess is that most Mormons dont realize the the collar and clerical garb isnt strictly Catholic.

Many (niavely) think that if there is a collar the pastor MUST be Catholic. Not true

 

[Marie5890]

**

January 2, 1969

Bruce Bracken
Logan, Utah 84321

Dear Brother Bracken:

We are very much concerned that some of our Church teachers seem to be obsessed of the idea of teaching doctrine which cannot be substantiated and making comments beyond what the Lord has actually said.

You asked about the Immaculate Conception of the birth of the Savior. Never have I talked about “sexual intercourse” between Deity and the mother of the Savior. If teachers were wise in speaking of this matter about which the Lord has said but very little, they would rest their discussion on this subject with merely the words which are recorded on this subject by Luke 1:34-35:

“Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.”

Remember that that being who brought about the Immaculate Conception was a divine personage. We need not question his method to accomplish his purposes. Perhaps we would do well to remember the words of Isaiah 55:8-9:

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For us the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.”

Let the Lord rest His case with this declaration and wait until he sees fit to tell us more.**

fairlds.org/authors/misc/did-god-have-sex-with-mary

The above was written by Harold B. Lee, a Mormon leader. If you were taught that God had sex with Mary you were taught something false. I suppose teachers can make mistakes.

It’s a fair statement that many Mormons are taught the opinons of those doing the teaching, and not necessarily what the leadership says…

When I was LDS, I found it a common experience to have a bishop, SS teacher or whatever, teach something that clearly contradicted what the higher-ups were saying…

Again, by being able to claim (and in many cases, correctly) that “such and such a comment” is personal opinion, Mormons have wiggle room.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

If you were taught that God had sex with Mary you were taught something false. I suppose teachers can make mistakes.

The Mormonites can deny it all day long, but it’s too much of a fact (not sure if factuality can be leveled…?) that the Mormon God had sexual intercourse with Mary to provide Jesus with a physical body. I see I will have to bring up the false apostle Orson Pratt again:

"The fleshly body of Jesus required a Mother as well as a Father. Therefore, the Father and Mother of Jesus,
according to the flesh, must have been associated in the capacity of husband and wife; hence the Virgin Mary
must have been, for the time being, the lawful wife of God the Father: we use the term lawful wife, because it
would be blasphemous in the highest degree to say that He overshadowed her or begat the Savior unlawfully…
He had a lawful right to overshadow the Virgin Mary IN THE CAPACITY OF A HUSBAND, and beget a Son…

Whether God the Father gave Mary to Joseph for time only, or for time and etern-
ity, we are not informed. It may be that He only gave her to be the wife of Joseph
while in this mortal state, and that He intended after the resurrection to again take
her as one of his own wives to raise up immortal spirits in eternity."
Apostle Orson Pratt, “The Seer,” Oct. 1853, p. 158).

My 1853 VS your 1969, this infection has been sitting too long.
Not even 10 years after Smith’s death and Pratt is desperately trying to explain
God having sex with Mary, Pratt being an ordained an Elder by Smith himself.

No escape.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

fairlds.org/authors/misc/did-god-have-sex-with-mary

Right…
Leave it to the Mormons to explain away their ludicrous doctrines.
Why not actual history?

 

[Marie5890]

This is rather strange. I think that within Mormonism there is respect for the Virgin Mary as the mother of Jesus.

Um then you dont know Mormonism. She is pretty much ignored.

And she is not seen as the “Virgin Mary”…At least not in a perpetual sense…

 

[gracepoole]

Whoa… I’m not sure what I expected when I asked the initial question, but I think it’s safe to say it wasn’t what I’ve read here.

As a Mormon, I was taught that the Marian Visitations were from Satan

I am sooo glad we honor, love and respect our Blessed Mother.

:yup:

Personally, and this is a little biased because of how much I love my own mother, I love the Virgin Mary and Venerate her whenever I can. A women’s love is definitely something that is close to heavenly.

So you were taught that she *is *a virgin, then?

Early LDS leaders taught the Catholic Church was evil. Additionally, early temple ceremony (pre 1990) showed a Catholic priest as the agent of Satan

I live not far from Cumorah and have visited several times with curious family from out of state. When the missionaries ask about our faith and we proudly say “Catholic,” there’s an obvious and palpable sense of disgust and pity. I’d like to say that it doesn’t impact me each time, but I also feel a bit of disgust and pity in response. Is this hatred of Catholicism still taught today in LDS? Is it rooted in the Great Apostasy?

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

If you were taught that God had sex with Mary you were taught something false. I suppose teachers can make mistakes.

Oh, and I suppose Prophets make mistakes too?!..

“When the Virgin Mary conceived the child
Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his
own likeness. He was not begotten by the
Holy Ghost.”
(Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, 1:50).

Brigham Young added that “The birth of the
Saviour was as natural as are the births of
our children; it was the result of natural ac-
tion. He partook of flesh and blood—was
begotten of his Father, as we were of our
fathers”
(Journal of Discourses, vol. 8, p. 115).

 

[Marie5890]

I live not far from Cumorah and have visited several times with curious family from out of state. When the missionaries ask about our faith and we proudly say “Catholic,” there’s an obvious and palpable sense of disgust and pity. I’d like to say that it doesn’t impact me each time, but I also feel a bit of disgust and pity in response. Is this hatred of Catholicism still taught today in LDS? Is it rooted in the Great Apostasy?

I would guess, and IMO only, that it’s rooted in the idea the it’s the belief that the Catholic and Orthordox churches are the reason for the so-called “great apostasy”…

And it’s common knowledge to older Mormons (and former Mormons) that LDS Apostle Bruce McConkie in his first version of his widely revered “Mormon Doctrine” declared that the “great whore of Babylon” mentioned in the BoM was the Catholic Church (he was forced to remove that declaration is subsequent editions)…

Yes for a long time, (late 19th early 20th century) that, at least sublimily, Mormons did believe that the “whore of Babylon” mentioned in the BoM was considered the Catholic Church.

With the influence of Gordon Hinkley, that thought was evenually softened (and eventually denied)…

GB Hinkley had a back ground in public relations. If you look at how the LDS Church morphed into a more so-called “main stream” Christian religion, look to Hinkley and his background…It happened all under his influence, first as part of the 1st presidency, then as president…

 

[iepuras]

Whoa… I’m not sure what I expected when I asked the initial question, but I think it’s safe to say it wasn’t what I’ve read here.



:yup:

So you were taught that she *is *a virgin, then?

I live not far from Cumorah and have visited several times with curious family from out of state. When the missionaries ask about our faith and we proudly say “Catholic,” there’s an obvious and palpable sense of disgust and pity. I’d like to say that it doesn’t impact me each time, but I also feel a bit of disgust and pity in response. Is this hatred of Catholicism still taught today in LDS? Is it rooted in the Great Apostasy?

Yes, Mormonism can bring up a lot of emotion from Mormons and ex Mormons! Quick answers to your questions.

1. Most young Mormons believe that Mary was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus but that she had children with Joseph the good old fashioned way after Jesus was born. Jesus was conceived via some kind of divine artificial insemination. Many early Mormon leaders, including Brigham Young and Orson Pratt taught that Heavenly Father fathered Jesus like our daddies made us. This thinking continued until fairly recently. Bruce R McConkie taught this and he died in the 80s. McConkie was an apostle and very very influential during his time. Mormon leaders have been distancing themselves from this controversial doctrine.
2. I think historically Mormons have had a similar animosity towards Catholicism as Protestants but maybe a bit more than Protestants. The same McConkie expressed very common anti-Catholic sentiment in his seminal book Mormon Doctrine and stated that the RCC is the great and abominable church of the devil. He was forced by leadership to remove that comment in subsequent editions. Younger generations do not have the same anti-Catholic attitude as older generations.

 

[Marie5890]

Yes, Mormonism can bring up a lot of emotion from Mormons and ex Mormons! Quick answers to your questions.

1. Most young Mormons believe that Mary was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus but that she had children with Joseph the good old fashioned way after Jesus was born. Jesus was conceived via some kind of divine artificial insemination. Many early Mormon leaders, including Brigham Young and Orson Pratt taught that Heavenly Father fathered Jesus like our daddies made us. This thinking continued until fairly recently. Bruce R McConkie taught this and he died in the 80s. McConkie was an apostle and very very influential during his time. Mormon leaders have been distancing themselves from this controversial doctrine.
2. I think historically Mormons have had a similar animosity towards Catholicism as Protestants but maybe a bit more than Protestants. The same McConkie expressed very common anti-Catholic sentiment in his seminal book Mormon Doctrine and stated that the RCC is the great and abominable church of the devil. He was forced by leadership to remove that comment in subsequent editions. Younger generations do not have the same anti-Catholic attitude as older generations.

Accurate run down of the history of how the LDS morphed over time when it comes to Mary and the CC …

 

[TexanKnight]

Are you sure? I heard Shawn McCraney on
his show “Heart of the Matter” that it was a
Protestant preacher, not a Catholic priest.
JUST CURIOUS!

I know what the LDS say about Catholics, but I am
not sure about the Temple film thing (you’re talking
about a film, yes?)

the person was dressed like a Catholic Priest with collar and everything. Though some protestants wear the same thing, it is usually associated with Catholics.

I had never been Catholic when I was LDS, and when I saw the temple movie, I right away thought “Catholic”

 

[TexanKnight]

**

January 2, 1969

Bruce Bracken
Logan, Utah 84321

Dear Brother Bracken:

We are very much concerned that some of our Church teachers seem to be obsessed of the idea of teaching doctrine which cannot be substantiated and making comments beyond what the Lord has actually said.

You asked about the Immaculate Conception of the birth of the Savior. Never have I talked about “sexual intercourse” between Deity and the mother of the Savior. If teachers were wise in speaking of this matter about which the Lord has said but very little, they would rest their discussion on this subject with merely the words which are recorded on this subject by Luke 1:34-35:

“Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.”

Remember that that being who brought about the Immaculate Conception was a divine personage. We need not question his method to accomplish his purposes. Perhaps we would do well to remember the words of Isaiah 55:8-9:

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For us the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.”

Let the Lord rest His case with this declaration and wait until he sees fit to tell us more.**

fairlds.org/authors/misc/did-god-have-sex-with-mary

The above was written by Harold B. Lee, a Mormon leader. If you were taught that God had sex with Mary you were taught something false. I suppose teachers can make mistakes.

sigh…really? I get so tired of Mormons who act like we have no clue about what we say here…perhaps YOU have taught wrong…

When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in
his own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. And who is the
Father? He is the first of the human family; and when he (Christ) took a
tabernacle, it was begotten by his Father in Heaven, AFTER THE SAME MANNER as
the tabernacles of Cain, Abel, and the rest of the sons and daughters of Adam
and Eve. Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same
character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven."JFS
(JoD 1:50-51, also “Answers”, vol. 5, p. 121).

“The birth of our Savior was as natural as are the births of our children; it
was the result of NATURAL ACTION. He partook of FLESH AND BLOOD–was begotten
of his father, as we were of our fathers.” BY (JoD, vol. 8, p. 115).

“We are told in the scriptures that Jesus Christ is the only begotten son of
God in the flesh…how are children begotten? I answer, just as Jesus was
begotten of his Father. The Christian denominations believe that Christ was
begotten not of God, but of the spirit that overshadowed his mother. THIS IS
NONSENSE. Why will they not believe the Father when He says that Jesus Christ
is His Only Begotten Son? Why will they try to EXPLAIN THIS TRUTH AWAY and
make mystery of it?” (as quoted from Joseph F. Smith, ‘Box Elder Times,’ Sep.
22, 1914).

“When the time came that His first-born, the Saviour, should come into the
world and take a tabernacle, the Father came himself and favored that Spirit
with a tabernacle instead of letting any other man do it. The Saviour was
begotten by the Father of His spirit, by the same being who is the Father of
our spirits, AND THAT IS ALL THE ORGANIC DIFFERENCE BETWEEN JESUS CHRIST AND
YOU AND ME.” (as quoted from 'Discourses of Brigham Young," 1925 edition, p.
77).

and these are just a few.

Please…Please…Please…do not act like we do not know the LDS teachings

 

[iepuras]

Thanks for posting TexanKnight! I was going to post these quotes but hadn’t been in a position to do so yet!

 

[zaffiroborant]

January 2, 1969

im·mac·u·late
/iˈmakyəlit/
Adjective

(esp. of a person or their clothes) Perfectly clean, neat, or tidy.
Free from flaws or mistakes; perfect.

Synonyms
spotless - faultless - stainless - clean - impeccable

Just a thought about the different usage of immaculate by LDS, for Catholics of course The Immaculate Conception refers to Mary being born without original sin. Because well sin is a flaw, fault, mistake, dirty. For LDS immaculate refers to Jesus’ birth without sex because sex is a fault, dirty, a flaw or mistake.

 

[iepuras]

Just a thought about the different usage of immaculate by LDS, for Catholics of course The Immaculate Conception refers to Mary being born without original sin. Because well sin is a flaw, fault, mistake, dirty. For LDS immaculate refers to Jesus’ birth without sex because sex is a fault, dirty, a flaw or mistake.

As a born in the covenant ex Mormon, I incorrectly thought the Immaculate Conception referred to Jesus’ conception. I have since learned the truth! Thank you RCIA!

 

[LivingWaters7]

Just a thought about the different usage of immaculate by LDS, for Catholics of course The Immaculate Conception refers to Mary being born without original sin. Because well sin is a flaw, fault, mistake, dirty. For LDS immaculate refers to Jesus’ birth without sex because sex is a fault, dirty, a flaw or mistake.

Wait, LDS believe that sex is a fault, dirty, a flaw or mistake? Or are you saying that because of the definition of “immaculate”, that is what the LDS usage of the word seems to imply, even though that’s not what they explicitly believe or teach?

 

[zaffiroborant]

Wait, LDS believe that sex is a fault, dirty, a flaw or mistake? Or are you saying that because of the definition of “immaculate”, that is what the LDS usage of the word seems to imply, even though that’s not what they explicitly believe or teach?

Just pointing out that it certainly is implied in the post by Invisibleman if you simply look at what the word immaculate means. It’s not an uncommon misunderstanding when people hear “Immaculate Conception that they think of Jesus conception:. I have had to correct Catholics on this very point. But when you apply “immaculate” to the virgin conception of Jesus then sexual intercourse is by default a not clean, it is a fault. Why does this man feel he needs to incorporate the phrase"Immaculate Conception” in his conversation? And why provide an answer in the form of a letter that so obviously says sexual intercourse is dirty, dirty is after all the opposite of immaculate.

This probably has more to do with the LDS penchant for adopting terms that have no meaning in their own theology but they for some reason feel compelled to incorporate into conversation. There was an LDS poster here who tried to say that Jesus was the the “Only Begotten Son” and that it had nothing to do with being the only begotten son of the father in the flesh but that somehow Jesus was the"only begotten son" prior to this life. This flys in the face of LDS teaching that we (us, Jesus, Satan) are all the offspring of heavenly father, how can Jesus be the “only begotten son” when there are millions of men who are begotten sons of the heavenly father? This use of “immaculate conception” and “only begotten son” by LDS looks like “oh that’s cool, and you know we believe it too cuz you know you really believe the same things we do” when obviously we aren’t even close in our beliefs. .

 

[invisible_man]

sigh…really? I get so tired of Mormons who act like we have no clue about what we say here…perhaps YOU have taught wrong…

When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in
his own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. And who is the
Father? He is the first of the human family; and when he (Christ) took a
tabernacle, it was begotten by his Father in Heaven, AFTER THE SAME MANNER as
the tabernacles of Cain, Abel, and the rest of the sons and daughters of Adam
and Eve. Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same
character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven."JFS
(JoD 1:50-51, also “Answers”, vol. 5, p. 121).

“The birth of our Savior was as natural as are the births of our children; it
was the result of NATURAL ACTION. He partook of FLESH AND BLOOD–was begotten
of his father, as we were of our fathers.” BY (JoD, vol. 8, p. 115).

“We are told in the scriptures that Jesus Christ is the only begotten son of
God in the flesh…how are children begotten? I answer, just as Jesus was
begotten of his Father. The Christian denominations believe that Christ was
begotten not of God, but of the spirit that overshadowed his mother. THIS IS
NONSENSE. Why will they not believe the Father when He says that Jesus Christ
is His Only Begotten Son? Why will they try to EXPLAIN THIS TRUTH AWAY and
make mystery of it?” (as quoted from Joseph F. Smith, ‘Box Elder Times,’ Sep.
22, 1914).

“When the time came that His first-born, the Saviour, should come into the
world and take a tabernacle, the Father came himself and favored that Spirit
with a tabernacle instead of letting any other man do it. The Saviour was
begotten by the Father of His spirit, by the same being who is the Father of
our spirits, AND THAT IS ALL THE ORGANIC DIFFERENCE BETWEEN JESUS CHRIST AND
YOU AND ME.” (as quoted from 'Discourses of Brigham Young," 1925 edition, p.
77).

and these are just a few.

Please…Please…Please…do not act like we do not know the LDS teachings

I don’t believe that the JoD’s are LDS teachings. I have never heard a Mormon refer to them. I also don’t believe that they are taught from the JoD when it comes to doctrinal issues. From what I understand Brigham Young’s discourses are more a part of their history, nothing more. I do think that it is wonderful that they do have such a collection of their leaders writings to refer to from an historical sense. It gives a sense of history.

What I seem to remember is that Mormons have very little of what Brigham Young actually said. Likewise for Joseph Smith. Most of what they have are collections of notes written by scribes or notetakers and then put into sermon form much later for books etc.