How do protestants explain the 1500 year gap.

[Lek]

People often do read the word of God under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and come away with opposing beliefs regarding certain doctrines e.g. the Eucharist.

This is true.

My sister and I believe that understanding comes through regular communing with him and study of his word, and yet we believe the polar opposite on quite a few things. Who or what did Jesus give us to resolve our differences regarding the interpretation of the Holy Bible, when they should occur?

He gave us the Holy Spirit working in us as individuals and his church.

I did not see an answer to the following: Regarding individuals within, and outside of the institutional churches who carry on the truth, as you have stated: Is there a way to identify those truths, shared by both those folks within and outside the institutional churches? If so could you explain?

The truths I speak of are fundamental beliefs that are clearly taught in scripture. There has always been a consensus throughout the church as to the truthfulness and reliability of these doctrines, such as:

Jesus is our messiah.
Jesus is the Son of God.
We’re only saved through him.
He died to save us from sin.
He rose from the dead.
He will return at the final judgement.

The church as a whole has ratified these fundamental beliefs.

 

[joe371]

That’s not what scripture, nor Chrysostom says.

Since you and I cannot agree, who or what, was put in place to settle our differences? Scripture’s not it, that’s for sure…

 

[Lek]

joe371;12185190:

This is true.

 

[joe371]

Lek

This is true.

He gave us the Holy Spirit working in us as individuals and his church.

The truths I speak of are fundamental beliefs that are clearly taught in scripture. There has always been a consensus throughout the church as to the truthfulness and reliability of these doctrines, such as:

Jesus is our messiah.
Jesus is the Son of God.
We’re only saved through him.
He died to save us from sin.
He rose from the dead.
He will return at the final judgement.

The church as a whole has ratified these fundamental beliefs.

Which church? When Christians cannot agree on certain doctrines, who or what did Jesus leave us with to resolve our differences?

 

[Lek]

Which church? When Christians cannot agree on certain doctrines, who or what did Jesus leave us with to resolve our differences?

The Christian church - the “body of Christ”. But I don’t think there is any authority which has the knowledge to interpret every verse in the bible exactly. To this day the church has never come to a consensus on many teachings from the scriptures.

 

[James82]

This was the real question I had in a previous thread that got derailed. Personally leaving my non denominational church and coming home to the Catholic Church if both had a solid answer from the bible I had to go with the catholic one because it was rooted in history such as the writings from the first three centuries after Christ.

When ever I show protestants of any kind writings such as the Didiache, polycarp, and ignatius of Antioch. They say “well false teachers were there from the beginning and I have the truth from the bible”. This had come from Lutherans to baptists

This question has always amused me to (when put to a separated brethren in debate). I was debating one well meaning and intelligent Presbyterian chap over at Called to Communion. He fervently believed that almost as soon as the apostolic age had finished the Church immediately became corrupt. Furthermore, it was not until Luther and Calvin came along that things got cleared up.

By logical extension (of that line of thinking) this clearing up of doctrine and revealing true religion in the 1500’s would mean salvation is only possible starting 500 years ago?

Think about the arrogance behind that reasoning…it’s scary.

 

[Novocastrian]

This question has always amused me to (when put to a separated brethren in debate). I was debating one well meaning and intelligent Presbyterian chap over at Called to Communion. He fervently believed that almost as soon as the apostolic age had finished the Church immediately became corrupt. Furthermore, it was not until Luther and Calvin came along that things got cleared up.

By logical extension (of that line of thinking) this clearing up of doctrine and revealing true religion in the 1500’s would mean salvation is only possible starting 500 years ago?

Think about the arrogance behind that reasoning…it’s scary.

I was reading the other day that during Mary I’s reign, those suspected of extreme Protestantism were often asked whether their parents were in hell. Thinking that one’s mother and father were Papists and therefore unsaved was a relatively good sign of the fanaticism the authorities were looking for…

 

[James82]

I was reading the other day that during Mary I’s reign, those suspected of extreme Protestantism were often asked whether their parents were in hell. Thinking that one’s mother and father were Papists and therefore unsaved was a relatively good sign of the fanaticism the authorities were looking for…

Oh I’m sure it went both ways…no doubt.

 

[joe371]

The Christian church - the “body of Christ”. But I don’t think there is any authority which has the knowledge to interpret every verse in the bible exactly. To this day the church has never come to a consensus on many teachings from the scriptures.

There is no one Christian church? For example, I belong to one church and you belong to a completely different church and different beliefs. It sounds like you are suggesting that Jesus did not leave Christianity (His Church) with a way to resolve doctrinal differences, when they occur. If that is true then truth is unknowable regarding those teachings of Jesus e.g. the Eucharist, that continue to divide. I suppose that is a possibility. However, it does seem to fly in the face of scripture e.g. John 16:13.

 

[joe371]

This question has always amused me to (when put to a separated brethren in debate). I was debating one well meaning and intelligent Presbyterian chap over at Called to Communion. He fervently believed that almost as soon as the apostolic age had finished the Church immediately became corrupt. Furthermore, it was not until Luther and Calvin came along that things got cleared up.

By logical extension (of that line of thinking) this clearing up of doctrine and revealing true religion in the 1500’s would mean salvation is only possible starting 500 years ago?

Think about the arrogance behind that reasoning…it’s scary.

I agree; quite silly. Moreover, it also kind of makes God a failure…at least until the reformation, at which point God decided to embrace doctrinal relativism.:dts:

 

[Lek]

There is no one Christian church? For example, I belong to one church and you belong to a completely different church and different beliefs. It sounds like you are suggesting that Jesus did not leave Christianity (His Church) with a way to resolve doctrinal differences, when they occur. If that is true then truth is unknowable regarding those teachings of Jesus e.g. the Eucharist, that continue to divide. I suppose that is a possibility. However, it does seem to fly in the face of scripture e.g. John 16:13.

I never said there is not one Christian church. Scripture defines the church as all followers of Christ. You as a Catholic and I as a Protestant, if we are both followers of Christ, are members of the one Christian church. The apostles creed became accepted after hundreds of years of studying the scriptures and debating the issues by individuals in the church until, differences were smoothed out and a consensus was formed. This is an example of the church acting to determine the truth under the guidance of the Holy Spirit… They didn’t need one man to put his seal of approval on the apostles creed. You can say that there was no division within the church before the reformation, but that would be totally incorrect. There was always division, but it was kept underground or was estinguished by imprisoning or executing the dissenters. If the Catholic church had not become a secular power, these disagreements could been examined and “hashed out” among the whole body of the church. Today, the pope can’t order the execution or imprisonment of an individual for disagreeing with church doctrine, so the debating about doctrines is free to go on. After Luther, people were emboldened to be more open about their disagreement with the Catholic church. There are a zillion Protestant denominations, but it is not their policy to say that other Christians are not going to go to heaven. They know that , above all, they’re all bound together by their mutual faith in Christ. In the US we’re always fighting one another and have different ideas about how to run the country, but we know that we’re all Americans.

 

[joe371]

Lek

I never said there is not one Christian church. Scripture defines the church as all followers of Christ. You as a Catholic and I as a Protestant, if we are both followers of Christ, are members of the one Christian church.

You said - The Christian church - the body of Christ, as opposed to Christian churches. No disrespect, but you and I do not belong to the same Christian Church, and that’s cool. Most of my family members belong to different Protestant churches. We belong to different churches, comprising the fractured Mystical Body of Christ.

The apostles creed became accepted after hundreds of years of studying the scriptures and debating the issues by individuals in the church until, differences were smoothed out and a consensus was formed. This is an example of the church acting to determine the truth under the guidance of the Holy Spirit…

An example of the Catholic church acting to determine the truth under the guidance of the Holy Spirit…Protestant churches did not exist yet…Again, no disrespect!

 

[joe371]

Lek

They didn’t need one man to put his seal of approval on the apostles creed.

OK. I’m not sure but I think that is a shot at the Petrine office?

You can say that there was no division within the church before the reformation, but that would be totally incorrect. There was always division, but it was kept underground or was estinguished by imprisoning or executing the dissenters.

Many say that but offer no historical proof. You make it sound like the Catholic Church prevented Godly Christian churches, from the first century to the reformation, from surfacing and thriving, and I am not talking about heretical movement such as Arianism, Nestorianism, etc. which were, thank God, quashed.

If the Catholic church had not become a secular power, these disagreements could been examined and “hashed out” among the whole body of the church.

OK. I still believe that Jesus started one church and continues to guide His church into all truth. God gets all the credit, as opposed to fallible leaders within His church. You disagree, and that’s cool.

Today, the pope can’t order the execution or imprisonment of an individual for disagreeing with church doctrine, so the debating about doctrines is free to go on.

If the Pope at any time ordered the execution of another then his soul is in trouble. However, Jesus predicted that scandal would occur…

Debating about doctrines…Sort of like a democracy? OK…

After Luther, people were emboldened to be more open about their disagreement with the Catholic church. There are a zillion Protestant denominations, but it is not their policy to say that other Christians are not going to go to heaven.

I don’t know about a zillion. LOL…The Catholic Church agrees with you 100%!!!

They know that , above all, they’re all bound together by their mutual faith in Christ. In the US we’re always fighting one another and have different ideas about how to run the country, but we know that we’re all Americans.

The CC agrees. Read CCC 817 - 823, if interested…

 

[Valhk]

You said - The Christian church - the body of Christ, as opposed to Christian churches. No disrespect, but you and I do not belong to the same Christian Church, and that’s cool. Most of my family members belong to different Protestant churches. We belong to different churches, comprising the fractured Mystical Body of Christ.

An example of the Catholic church acting to determine the truth under the guidance of the Holy Spirit…Protestant churches did not exist yet…Again, no disrespect!

And neither did the RCC. It was THE CHURCH. History gets foggy when the church becomes state-sponsored and people start converting for the mere fact of following what the Roman Emperor chose.

The only reason we don’t belong to the same church is because you choose not to accept it. Jesus Christ is my Savior and by his crucifixion and resurrection, ALL have been given the opportunity to become co-heirs with Christ. Everyone who accepts this is a child of God.

 

[joe371]

Valhk;12186873]And neither did the RCC. It was THE CHURCH. History gets foggy when the church becomes state-sponsored and people start converting for the mere fact of following what the Roman Emperor chose.

So, in the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th centuries there existed two churches: the true CHURCH established by Jesus and the Catholic Church established by some one other than Jesus?

The only reason we don’t belong to the same church is because you choose not to accept it.

I choose not to do what - belong to your church?

Jesus Christ is my Savior and by his crucifixion and resurrection, ALL have been given the opportunity to become co-heirs with Christ. Everyone who accepts this is a child of God.

Amen to that, and the CC agrees with you:

CCC - 817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

820 "Christ bestowed unity on his Church from the beginning. This unity, we believe, subsists in the Catholic Church as something she can never lose, and we hope that it will continue to increase until the end of time."277 Christ always gives his Church the gift of unity, but the Church must always pray and work to maintain, reinforce, and perfect the unity that Christ wills for her. This is why Jesus himself prayed at the hour of his Passion, and does not cease praying to his Father, for the unity of his disciples: "That they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be one in us, . . . so that the world may know that you have sent me."278 The desire to recover the unity of all Christians is a gift of Christ and a call of the Holy Spirit.279

 

[Lek]

You said - The Christian church - the body of Christ, as opposed to Christian churches. No disrespect, but you and I do not belong to the same Christian Church, and that’s cool. Most of my family members belong to different Protestant churches. We belong to different churches, comprising the fractured Mystical Body of Christ.

So if I speak of Christ’s church, what church am I speaking of - the Roman Catholic Church?

 

[estesbob]

So if I speak of Christ’s church, what church am I speaking of - the Roman Catholic Church?

Yes.The one True Church founded by Jesus and headed by His Holiness Pope Francis, The Vicar of Christ.

 

[joe371]

So if I speak of Christ’s church, what church am I speaking of - the Roman Catholic Church?

For me personally, as a former non-Catholic the historical church established by Jesus is the Catholic Church, keeping in mind, the following. For you and many others, it’s not the Catholic Church; no biggie:

CCC - 817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:

818 "However, **one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who  at present are born into these communities** [that resulted from such  separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the  Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . .  . **All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into  Christ**; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with  good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the  Catholic Church."272

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 ** Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation**, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

 

[House_Harkonnen]

Since you and I cannot agree, who or what, was put in place to settle our differences? Scripture’s not it, that’s for sure…

A truly ecumenical council.

When representatives of my denomination are allowed to attend and have a full voice in an ecumenical council like my hero Luther wanted, perhaps we can begin to resolve our differences.

 

[joe371]

A truly ecumenical council.

When representatives of my denomination are allowed to attend and have a full voice in an ecumenical council like my hero Luther wanted, perhaps we can begin to resolve our differences.

OK. I understand.

If that is the only way then surely every Protestant Church should have the right to be allowed to attend and have a full voice in an ecumenical council?