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Xantippe
Guest
That was hilarious!
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Naskor
Guest
So that brings up a different question. What are the traditional parishes doing differently?
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ThePCWife
Guest
Accepting commuter status rather than community status. People commute for a Tridentine Mass, but they don’t do community stuff, whether their own community or the one where the Tridentine parish is. The Catholics I know doing community stuff do not generally commute for Mass, even though many are sympathetic to and want to have the option of Latin Mass more.
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Xantippe
Guest
That’s a very interesting point. I think our TLM community (a couple hundred people) does stuff after Mass (a dinner and play time for the kids) but our population is big enough to support it without long-distance commuting.
It is not a large percentage of young practicing Catholic families in our area. It’s just one Mass and there are easily 20X as many practicing Catholic families in the area, it’s just that the TLM is particularly dense with biggish families and particularly tight-knit and zealous.
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phil19034
Guest
Here is another way to bring young families back…
When young parents have ideas don’t automatically shoot them down because it’s not how it was done back in the 50s.
For example: Young families know the power of technology (Facebook, videos, media, etc.) Young families are looking for ways to teach their kids at home, etc. Don’t shoot down ideas that help families teach their kids at home because it’s not at the parish.
Don’t say things like: when I was younger “we weren’t allowed to even read the Bible, so we shouldn’t have parents watch videos at home because we won’t know what they learn”
Understand that the culture is different between the older parishioners vs the younger ones. Younger ones DEPEND on email and technology, older, not so much.
And finally, cater to the younger families. They are the future of the faith. If we cater only to the older parishioners, no one will be there when they all pass away.
(SORRY - I’m a little bitter today due to some statements by some elder parishioners in my parish)
When young parents have ideas don’t automatically shoot them down because it’s not how it was done back in the 50s.
For example: Young families know the power of technology (Facebook, videos, media, etc.) Young families are looking for ways to teach their kids at home, etc. Don’t shoot down ideas that help families teach their kids at home because it’s not at the parish.
Don’t say things like: when I was younger “we weren’t allowed to even read the Bible, so we shouldn’t have parents watch videos at home because we won’t know what they learn”
Understand that the culture is different between the older parishioners vs the younger ones. Younger ones DEPEND on email and technology, older, not so much.
And finally, cater to the younger families. They are the future of the faith. If we cater only to the older parishioners, no one will be there when they all pass away.
(SORRY - I’m a little bitter today due to some statements by some elder parishioners in my parish)
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UbiCaritas
Guest
If by “traditional” we mean “tridentine-Mass-only” parishes, I’d disagree with your assessment.
I grew up in that environment, and stayed in it as an adult until I got married and ended up in an area where the closest (non-SSPX, that is) Tridentine Mass is over half an hour away, while we have a good parish literally down the roan.
In parishes which only have the Tridentine Mass, a good percentage of the young people are kids, the under-18s. A strong factor in this is the extreme dissuasion by the priests of these communities of the use of even NFP except in life-or-death circumstances. Some even give theologically-inaccurate information on the subject; a friend of mine was told that methods that use tests to determine fertility aren’t okay, but those which use subjective observations are…though of course, only if Mom will die if they have another kid. The priest who married us, though solid in many areas, told us not to take an NFP class before marriage because it might tempt us to sin. (How in the world a discussion of cervical mucus textures could be the subject of impure thoughts, I do not want to know!)
Secondly, these parishes tend to be very self-selecting. Most of the kids are homeschooled. Their parents do not want them to associate with anyone who isn’t traditional Catholic and homeschooled as well. This, of course, means that the kids need some sort of social outlet unlike the ones provided to most homeschoolers.
Contrary to popular impression, most homeschoolers engage in extracurriculars of some sort in order to meet friends and gain new experiences: dance, music, sports, and so on. However, since none of these outlets are available to the kids at these parishes, their parents form homeschool groups focused around the parish. (An added difficulty is that there’s a belief in a lot of these groups that girls engaging in sports is inherently immodest and “unMarian.” This is not good from either a physical, social, or mental health perspective.) The kids’ socialization–and, by extension, that of their parents–is pretty much entirely limited to parish-related social activities.
As a result, and also partly because a lot of the parishioners will be driving in from 1-2 hours away, in the parishes I attended, at least, church generally became an all-day affair. After the last Mass of the morning, there would be a potluck lunch in the church hall. The parents could hang out and talk, and the kids play together. There would be games in the afternoon, as well, sometimes culminating in evening prayer of some kind before everyone went home. Because of the above-described self-selection of most of the parishioners, this is often their only outside-the-family social interaction during the week, so it’s a Really Big Deal.
Long story short: these traditional parishes do a lot of things right, in that they provide a very “familial” atmosphere by doing the potlucks every week, for example, and in supporting families personally who need help. Of course, that is a bit easier to do in a parish of 500 people than in one with 3000 families (our current parish), but they should be given credit for the good stuff they do. They also encourage young families to live the faith, give kids their sacraments when they really understand what’s going on, regardless of age or number of years in a sacramental prep program, and live their faith without a lot of the bureaucracy that inevitably comes with larger churches. A lot of people find this appealing.
To (finally) answer the question at hand: what this means is that we should cheerfully steal their ideas.
Make sacraments a Big Deal. Preach solid sermons. Pull no punches in teaching the faith, but teach what it really says. Be rooted in reality about certain aspects: telling a church full of fairly big young families that Good Catholics send their kids to Catholic school, but then charging five figures in tuition per kid? Not reasonable. Telling kids that they need to go through 2-3 years of drivel in Faith Formation* before their first Confession and subsequent first Communion, no excuses or exceptions, only to have the kids, as overheard at the first Confession line at a nearby parish, not know who “that guy on that cross thing is–is He God?”…is a Serious Problem. Have family-friendly activities at times that really do work for families. Have lots and lots and lots of Confession slots available. Encourage people to practice their faith, and give them solid tools with which to do it. Don’t stop them via unnecessary (key word) bureaucracy.*Not knocking FF per se, and yes, parents are the first and primary educators, and yes, there are good FF classes out there, but I’ll hazard a guess that wasn’t one of them.
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UbiCaritas
Guest
I wanted to add this on to the last post, but it would have made it too long.
ETA, for some perspective on how closed-to-outsiders traditional Massgoers can (note: not all!) be. A former friend attended, for a while, a church which had both a Tridentine Mass and a Novus Ordo. She was an aficionado of the former. The pastor, smart man, had noticed that the church was getting rather more divided by this than he liked, and announced a schedule change: from now on, the Tridentine Massgoers and the NO Massgoers would have only one coffee hour afterwards as an option, not two separate ones. That way, all the Massgoers would mingle together, as he wanted a more unified parish. (Former) friend’s response: “I can’t believe he did that to us! Doesn’t he realize that Sunday is the one day we don’t have to be with people like that?! We can relax and let our kids play without worrying about who they’re playing with, but we won’t be able to do that anymore if we’re all just thrown together!” Oh, dear.
ETA, for some perspective on how closed-to-outsiders traditional Massgoers can (note: not all!) be. A former friend attended, for a while, a church which had both a Tridentine Mass and a Novus Ordo. She was an aficionado of the former. The pastor, smart man, had noticed that the church was getting rather more divided by this than he liked, and announced a schedule change: from now on, the Tridentine Massgoers and the NO Massgoers would have only one coffee hour afterwards as an option, not two separate ones. That way, all the Massgoers would mingle together, as he wanted a more unified parish. (Former) friend’s response: “I can’t believe he did that to us! Doesn’t he realize that Sunday is the one day we don’t have to be with people like that?! We can relax and let our kids play without worrying about who they’re playing with, but we won’t be able to do that anymore if we’re all just thrown together!” Oh, dear.
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987mk
Guest
You cannot.
Information and education brings about disbelief in the supernatural. The decline will continue and within 40 years, a strong majority of Westerners will not identify as Christian.
Even Evangelical Christianity, despite it’s prominence and financial backing is on the decline.
Information and education brings about disbelief in the supernatural. The decline will continue and within 40 years, a strong majority of Westerners will not identify as Christian.
Even Evangelical Christianity, despite it’s prominence and financial backing is on the decline.
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ThePCWife
Guest
Well, being as how I’m a Protestant, I have to say I don’t have personal experience with Tridentine Mass only folks, for basically the obvious reasons your own comment describes. The people I know are mostly having to choose between a parish that offers Latin Mass as an option and a parish or parishes that do not offer it at all. And in the former case usually facing a commute.If by “traditional” we mean “tridentine-Mass-only” parishes, I’d disagree with your assessment.
I grew up in that environment, and stayed in it as an adult until I got married and ended up in an area where the closest (non-SSPX, that is) Tridentine Mass is over half an hour away, while we have a good parish literally down the roan.
In parishes which only have the Tridentine Mass, a good percentage of the young people are kids, the under-18s. A strong factor in this is the extreme dissuasion by the priests of these communities of the use of even NFP except in life-or-death circumstances. Some even give theologically-inaccurate information on the subject; a friend of mine was told that methods that use tests to determine fertility aren’t okay, but those which use subjective observations are…though of course, only if Mom will die if they have another kid. The priest who married us, though solid in many areas, told us not to take an NFP class before marriage because it might tempt us to sin. (How in the world a discussion of cervical mucus textures could be the subject of impure thoughts, I do not want to know!)
Secondly, these parishes tend to be very self-selecting. Most of the kids are homeschooled. Their parents do not want them to associate with anyone who isn’t traditional Catholic and homeschooled as well. This, of course, means that the kids need some sort of social outlet unlike the ones provided to most homeschoolers.
Contrary to popular impression, most homeschoolers engage in extracurriculars of some sort in order to meet friends and gain new experiences: dance, music, sports, and so on. However, since none of these outlets are available to the kids at these parishes, their parents form homeschool groups focused around the parish. (An added difficulty is that there’s a belief in a lot of these groups that girls engaging in sports is inherently immodest and “unMarian.” This is not good from either a physical, social, or mental health perspective.) The kids’ socialization–and, by extension, that of their parents–is pretty much entirely limited to parish-related social activities.
As a result, and also partly because a lot of the parishioners will be driving in from 1-2 hours away, in the parishes I attended, at least, church generally became an all-day affair. After the last Mass of the morning, there would be a potluck lunch in the church hall. The parents could hang out and talk, and the kids play together. There would be games in the afternoon, as well, sometimes culminating in evening prayer of some kind before everyone went home. Because of the above-described self-selection of most of the parishioners, this is often their only outside-the-family social interaction during the week, so it’s a Really Big Deal.
Long story short: these traditional parishes do a lot of things right, in that they provide a very “familial” atmosphere by doing the potlucks every week, for example, and in supporting families personally who need help. Of course, that is a bit easier to do in a parish of 500 people than in one with 3000 families (our current parish), but they should be given credit for the good stuff they do. They also encourage young families to live the faith, give kids their sacraments when they really understand what’s going on, regardless of age or number of years in a sacramental prep program, and live their faith without a lot of the bureaucracy that inevitably comes with larger churches. A lot of people find this appealing.
To (finally) answer the question at hand: what this means is that we should cheerfully steal their ideas.
*Not knocking FF per se, and yes, parents are the first and primary educators, and yes, there are good FF classes out there, but I’ll hazard a guess that wasn’t one of them.
As far as Catholics I run into online, over the years the Latin Mass fans have been prone to brag about their commuting and lack of social activity within said parish, while offline Catholics I know who did the commuting were not really happy about it, but worried about proper catechesis issues and feeling that they were taking the least bad option.
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phil19034
Guest
People often have “bigger muscles” online than they do in real life. Even devout Christians
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Xantippe
Guest
Funny!People often have “bigger muscles” online than they do in real life. Even devout Christians
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Polluted
Guest
There is no way. Sadly the bulk of young folks have abandoned Christianity as a whole and you probably won’t see them until they are 50 and have been slapped around by the world and are living out the consequences of a sin loving life with full force.
They will be back, but they ain’t gonna be young
They will be back, but they ain’t gonna be young
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phil19034
Guest
I can’t accept this.There is no way. Sadly the bulk of young folks have abandoned Christianity as a whole and you probably won’t see them until they are 50 and have been slapped around by the world and are living out the consequences of a sin loving life with full force.
They will be back, but they ain’t gonna be young
It might be hard to save my generation of 30-somethings, but we can stop the “bleeding” with good Catechesis and Evangelization of children & teens.
Also, programs like FORMED.ORG will help with the people currently in their 20s, 30s & 40s.
And other programs like Catholic Answers Live & Lighthouse Catholic Media help too.
God Bless!
Phil
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FreeEver
Guest
I sincerely hope you’re correct. And we reverse the current trend in the US of Catholic sacramental marriage peaking at 426,309 in 1970 and in 2014 had fallen to 154,450.
(see post post 40 in this thread for Georgetown U stats)
God Bless and Peace to all.
S
sadpanda2
Guest
Bishop Robert Barron stated that in his experience the single best thing to do to increase the Faith in a single parish is to have regular Adoration.
Catholics seek out the Blessed Sacrament. Increasing the number of people in a parish who will truly acknowledge that Christ is present in the Eucharist will increase the graces therein. The people will wish to receive worthily, and confessions will increase. When the Host is exposed, people will come by the church on a day other than Sunday to be with Him.
Do that. If your priest is not explicitly preaching the True Presence, encourage him to do so!
Catholics seek out the Blessed Sacrament. Increasing the number of people in a parish who will truly acknowledge that Christ is present in the Eucharist will increase the graces therein. The people will wish to receive worthily, and confessions will increase. When the Host is exposed, people will come by the church on a day other than Sunday to be with Him.
Do that. If your priest is not explicitly preaching the True Presence, encourage him to do so!
K
Kelfa28
Guest
Awesome post.
I go to a parish that has perpetual Adoration.
What a huge difference it makes.
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sadpanda2
Guest
My parish has about 26 hours (after Friday morning Mass to before Saturday morning Mass.) We also have a 6 pm Mass Sunday which is a more P&W-style (but still very devout) and is followed by an hour of Adoration for 18-35 year olds, and then dinner for them. A good number of people, most of them young, are there from 6-9 pm.
Awesome post.
I go to a parish that has perpetual Adoration.
What a huge difference it makes.
Then across town there is a parish with a Perpetual Adoration chapel. They are a smaller parish than we, but have something like a dozen current seminarians. Go ahead and try to convince me that the two aren’t connected
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UbiCaritas
Guest
I am SO jealous.
Awesome post.
I go to a parish that has perpetual Adoration.
What a huge difference it makes.
The closest parish like that to me is about a half hour away…doable on a weekend if I want to pop up there by myself while DH watches DD, but not on a regular basis.
I can say with certainty that going to school and working within blocks of a church with perpetual Adoration made a HUGE difference in my faith life as a college student. I was pretty lukewarm to that point: yes, I attended weekly Mass, but that was about it. Being able to stop in at any time without having to worry about a schedule meant that I’d go there almost every day, even if only for a few minutes over lunch. It was, hands-down, the best spiritual period of my life.
Priests, set up perpetual Adoration at your parishes! Please! And preach on how awesome it is! Many of us would gladly take a regular hour in order for this to happen!
J
JakeAugustine
Guest
Wow! That is very encouraging to hear panda. As a young adult in a large city with a not so active young adult community (Jacksonville) I am a little jealous. What city is this if you dont mind me asking?My parish has about 26 hours (after Friday morning Mass to before Saturday morning Mass.) We also have a 6 pm Mass Sunday which is a more P&W-style (but still very devout) and is followed by an hour of Adoration for 18-35 year olds, and then dinner for them. A good number of people, most of them young, are there from 6-9 pm.
Then across town there is a parish with a Perpetual Adoration chapel. They are a smaller parish than we, but have something like a dozen current seminarians. Go ahead and try to convince me that the two aren’t connected
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phil19034
Guest
this is very true!
Especially when the Adoration isn’t in a small closet or tiny room in the Rectory. When Adoration is in the main Sanctuary or Daily Mass Chapel, it makes a HUGE difference.
When the Adoration Chapel is only large enough for 4 people, not enough people attend.
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