How does God create "the act of existing" out of nothing?

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I did not say that “esse” is not an intrinsic principle in the nature of God Himself. In fact I have consistently affirmed the opposite. I have maintained that since that principle is intrinsic to God, he can effect its like in other forms.
Esse is God. It is what he is and not only what he is doing or can do.

If esse is intrinsic to God, if God is actuality itself, then what sense does it make to say that he creates that which is itself actuality?
You are ignoring the fact that “created esse” comes from God, to whom “esse” is an intrinsic principle.
I am not ignoring it, i am rejecting it because its irrational for reasons i have already presented.
Again, the principle of “an agent effects its like, such as fire effects fire.” Esse is coming from God, and God is not less than created things.
But according to you created esse is not even a potency much less a thing in itself, so how is it logically possible that this esoteric esse can bring potency to act if it is not itself actuality?

.
 
When it is said that “God’s esse is His alone”, that means it is not predicated of anything else: i.e. nothing else has it.
It is not simply the case of saying a particular esse in comparison to other esse is God’s alone; as if God is just one being among many beings. The act of existence is God. Thus to have esse is to have God. The act of existence cannot be multiplied. Only the essence of creation can be multiplied precisely because it is not the act of existence.

Existence is predicated analogically to creatures. Not equivocally or univocally.
 
It is not simply the case of saying a particular esse in comparison to other esse is God’s alone; as if God is just one being among many beings. The act of existence is God. Thus to have esse is to have God. The act of existence cannot be multiplied. Only the essence of creation can be multiplied precisely because it is not the act of existence.

Existence is predicated analogically to creatures. Not equivocally or univocally.
You are confusing God with his effects. You are basically saying God cannot produce an effect other than himself. By your logic, the same would be true for essence. God cannot produce an essence other than himself. Therefore created essence is somehow part of God’s essence.

Catholics believe, following Aquinas, that God creates esse and essences.
You are saying God cannot create something from nothing therefore God must use himself. So you make his esse the substance of creation.
But this is pantheism. Because by that same logic, you would also need to reduce essence to God. Thus everything is God.

So let me switch sides for a moment. Assuming you are correct, how is an essence different from God? How does God create an essence? Does he create it from nothing? Or is it a part of his esse? How can it be a part of his esse and not be his essence as well? I mean, if God cannot make things real execpt in hiself, then we must be floating around in God. God is the primary substance of creation, right? How can you prevent your line of thinking from going straight into pantheism?

God bless,
Ut
 
It is not simply the case of saying a particular esse in comparison to other esse is God’s alone; as if God is just one being among many beings. The act of existence is God. Thus to have esse is to have God. The act of existence cannot be multiplied. Only the essence of creation can be multiplied precisely because it is not the act of existence.

Existence is predicated analogically to creatures. Not equivocally or univocally.
You are confusing God with his effects. You are basically saying God cannot produce an effect other than himself. By your logic, the same would be true for essence. God cannot produce an essence other than himself. Therefore created essence is somehow part of God’s essence.

Catholics believe, following Aquinas, that God creates esse and essences.
You are saying God cannot create something from nothing therefore God must use himself. So you make his esse the substance of creation.
But this is pantheism. Because by that same logic, you would also need to reduce essence to God. Thus everything is God.

So let me switch sides for a moment. Assuming you are correct, how is an essence different from God? How does God create an essence? Does he create it from nothing? Or is it a part of his esse? How can it be a part of his esse and not be his essence as well? I mean, if God cannot make things real execpt in hiself, then we must be floating around in God. God is the primary substance of creation, right? How can you prevent your line of thinking from going straight into pantheism?

Oh wait, you already came to that conclusion here: Do We Exist in the Mind of God? . Since we exist in the esse of God, we must therefore exist in the mind of God, therefore our essences are nothing but the thoughts of God. What fun! We are totally in God! Wow! How is this not pantheism?

God bless,
Ut
 
You are confusing God with his effects. You are basically saying God cannot produce an effect other than himself. By your logic, the same would be true for essence. God cannot produce an essence other than himself. Therefore created essence is somehow part of God’s essence.

Catholics believe, following Aquinas, that God creates esse and essences.
You are saying God cannot create something from nothing therefore God must use himself. So you make his esse the substance of creation.
But this is pantheism. Because by that same logic, you would also need to reduce essence to God. Thus everything is God.

So let me switch sides for a moment. Assuming you are correct, how is an essence different from God? How does God create an essence? Does he create it from nothing? Or is it a part of his esse? How can it be a part of his esse and not be his essence as well? I mean, if God cannot make things real execpt in hiself, then we must be floating around in God. God is the primary substance of creation, right? How can you prevent your line of thinking from going straight into pantheism?

Oh wait, you already came to that conclusion here: Do We Exist in the Mind of God? . Since we exist in the esse of God, we must therefore exist in the mind of God, therefore our essences are nothing but the thoughts of God. What fun! We are totally in God! Wow! How is this not pantheism?

God bless,
Ut
Or…how can God, who is infinite, create out of Himself, that which is finite? His nature is infinite and anything that comes out of Him must thereby be infinite, but since He IS infinite, nothing more can be created out of Him, since there is no want in infinity. It is prideful to want to apply finite logic to explain the infinite God and his actions. All creation was created by God out of nothing; no other answer suffices. Finite minds can never wrap themselves around this concept, and so must either believe, or make their own minds their god, and refuse to believe.
 
Or…how can God, who is infinite, create out of Himself, that which is finite? His nature is infinite and anything that comes out of Him must thereby be infinite, but since He IS infinite, nothing more can be created out of Him, since there is no want in infinity.
Agreed. This would make sense with regard to the Trinity in terms of the relations between the persons within the Trinity, but not with regard to creation. Creation is not generation.
It is prideful to want to apply finite logic to explain the infinite God and his actions. All creation was created by God out of nothing; no other answer suffices. Finite minds can never wrap themselves around this concept, and so must either believe, or make their own minds their god, and refuse to believe.
Good reminder. I apologize if I have given offense. I have to keep in mind that it is God I am talking about here. Something to be discussed with reverence.

God bless,
Ut
 
Linux,

Do you ever reread what you write? The following is incoherent. It shows just how incoherent your philosophy is.

" Well a creature that is not actuality can only participate in that which is actuality itself; otherwise there is no possibility of it becoming actual if the act of existence is not already a thing in-itself. If it is not existence that it has as distinct from itself, then it does not have existence. It is you who is equivocating substance and actuality by making them co-dependent upon on each-other for existence which simply destroys the concept of esse as that which actualizes or perfects potential. Its incoherent since esse would be dependent on the actualization of potency in-order to be real and so what sense does it make to speak of it as that which brings potency to act? " ( Your post # 792 )

" It is not simply the case of saying a particular esse in comparison to other esse is God’s alone; as if God is just one being among many beings. The act of existence is God. Thus to have esse is to have God. The act of existence cannot be multiplied. Only the essence of creation can be multiplied precisely because it is not the act of existence.

Existence is predicated analogically to creatures. Not equivocally or univocally. " ( Your post # 796 )

Linus2nd
 
God cannot cease to exist, so clearly the idea that nothing is impossible for God clearly does not imply that God can do the metaphysically impossible. Science is irrelevant insofar as the fact that it is not the basis of my claim.
If there is an all knowing God,and there is, does it not make sense physical laws of the universe do not apply to Him ? After all He created all things 🙂

God Bless
 
If there is an all knowing God,and there is, does it not make sense physical laws of the universe do not apply to Him ? After all He created all things 🙂

God Bless
Physical law govern physical things. Since God is spiritual, it goes without saying that physical laws do not apply to Him.
 
If there is an all knowing God,and there is, does it not make sense physical laws of the universe do not apply to Him ? After all He created all things 🙂

God Bless
Physical law govern physical things. Since God is spiritual, it goes without saying that physical laws do not apply to Him.
To build upon this, philosophical argument concludes that God is Pure Act, which means He is necessarily immaterial (since anything that is material will have some potency). Physical laws do not apply to immaterial things.

Furthermore, physical laws are not ontological entities, they are abstractions of the relationships that exist between the substantial forms of physical objects (ie. particles that have mass tend to obey the laws of gravity not because the laws of gravity are causally acting on them, but because it is in their substantial form to act according to what we have defined as the laws of gravity). God’s essence is His existence; God’s essence is not to tend to behave in a certain way relative to physical objects.

Lastly, what would it mean for something like gravity to apply to God? That He would move towards objects? That He would change?
 
Yes, by Faith we believe that God created all things out of nothing, along with space and time. It would be improper however to say that God Himself " has existed out of nothing. " God has always existed, so he could not ever have " existed out of nothing. " It is created creatures that have been made out of non-being, out of nothing.

Linus2nd
I agree, so why do scientists who are Christians continue to try to prove that God exists, that He always has, and that He always will?

They have already found what they call the “God gene” which some believe to be the soul of a person’s genetic material, thus a pre-determined and pre-destined gift from God to all people.

Some are trying to answer the question of the “Worm Hole” which is described as a vacuum in our solar system.

I just think that scientists who are Christians would understand this by faith, rather than trying to prove that God existed out of nothing. By faith, it is determined that He has always existed, and always will. Therefore, God has created all things from Himself, His desires, and His Will will always be done.

Scientists who are not Christian (or of other Godly religions) keep trying, they will not find it. If he wants scientists to know something, he will offer them proof.

However, I doubt that will ever happen, because there are just some things we will never know, nor understand, until we get to speak to Him personally…and I can’t wait!
 
God is above all human conception of corporeal existence, and whatever we “imagine” of God falls short of His Being. If I may enter a quote for clarification, followed by further commentary:

. To every discerning and illumined heart it is evident that God, the unknowable Essence, the divine Being, is immensely exalted beyond every human attribute, such as corporeal existence, ascent and descent, egress and regress. Far be it from His glory that human tongue should adequately recount His praise, or that human heart comprehend His fathomless mystery. He is and hath ever been veiled in the ancient eternity of His Essence, and will remain in His Reality everlastingly hidden from the sight of men.
(Baha’u’llah: The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 98)

. Consider that all that is in the heavens the earths (or billions of galaxies and trillions of stars and planets, as they have deduced with telescopes) has been created by this Infinite Single Being. Quantum physics calls into questions the very idea of “matter”, and the further it examines its facets it indeed appears to me more of an extension or projection of what might be termed best as “spirit” i.e. in search of the God-particle, which they might as well admit is searching God, or at least His fingerprints, so to speak.

. I actually wonder if what we refer to as “heaven” is more akin to what we experience in the dream state, or in visions, which happen without ever leaving the place of rest, yet transport us to other times and “places”, where we walk without feet, traversing illimitable distances, and converse with other souls. Then sometimes, a dream actually manifests itself ten years later, or some lesser or greater time, in the normal life we live.

Any further contribution of your thoughts on this would be appreciated.

Thank you, kindly for its a deeeep subject, beyond quarks and time… 😉
I can tell you very matter of factly that GOD IS REAL and HEAVEN IS REAL…a real place! I “died” in August 2010 and was in a coma for several weeks. While in a coma, I went to Heaven and heard God’s voice tell me that it was not my time, because He still has work for me to do. Then I saw my late husband who told me, “Not yet, Honey. You have to go back, but I’ll be here waiting for you.” When I awoke from my coma, I remembered nothing else but that experience…not why or how I got to the hospital. Why my entire body shut down. I only awoke after my brother-in-law prayed over me.

To view many, many other statements such as these, go to YouTube and look up “near death experiences.” You will find so many, even children and non-believers, who can describe going to heaven or hell, or both. It is not a dream or hallucination in any way, shape, or form. It is such a peaceful, loving place, beyond any words can describe, and you don’t want to come back. Now I can’t wait to go back to Heaven. I it is my “job” now to tell everyone I meet in person and online about God’s over-powering love for us, and that all we have to do is ask for it. His grace and mercy are endless.

I’d like these scientists to see these videos too. It will certainly open your eyes to the wonders of how God does exist and how He communicates with us.
 
I can tell you very matter of factly that GOD IS REAL and HEAVEN IS REAL…a real place! I “died” in August 2010 and was in a coma for several weeks. While in a coma, I went to Heaven and heard God’s voice tell me that it was not my time, because He still has work for me to do. Then I saw my late husband who told me, “Not yet, Honey. You have to go back, but I’ll be here waiting for you.” When I awoke from my coma, I remembered nothing else but that experience…not why or how I got to the hospital. Why my entire body shut down. I only awoke after my brother-in-law prayed over me.

To view many, many other statements such as these, go to YouTube and look up “near death experiences.” You will find so many, even children and non-believers, who can describe going to heaven or hell, or both. It is not a dream or hallucination in any way, shape, or form. It is such a peaceful, loving place, beyond any words can describe, and you don’t want to come back. Now I can’t wait to go back to Heaven. I it is my “job” now to tell everyone I meet in person and online about God’s over-powering love for us, and that all we have to do is ask for it. His grace and mercy are endless.

I’d like these scientists to see these videos too. It will certainly open your eyes to the wonders of how God does exist and how He communicates with us.
Thank you for sharing this kmcarl56. 🙂

My grandfather had a similar experience. He said something almost word for word as you described: “It is such a peaceful, loving place, beyond any words can describe, and you don’t want to come back.” although what he saw was different. Later on, in University, I read these words from Saint Augustine in his Confessions:
…yet man, this part of Your creation, desires to praise You. You move us to delight in praising You; for You have formed us for Yourself, and our hearts are restless till they find rest in You.
I immediately associated those words to the experience my grandfather had. I know some will dispute whether it is a real experience or just a byproduct of a dying brain, but for me, it does not matter. What matters are the words themselves “…such peaceful, loving place, beyond any words can describe…” This is what God is. Or at the very least, this is an appropriate representation of how we should relate to God, the source of all perfection, truth, and goodness - the God who is Love.

God bless,
Ut
 
Perfection in this sense is only **analogous **and is passive. A person cannot run unless running is reduced from potency to act by that which is esse. Esse is not the person. It is not the persons nature itself that perfects the potential of running (secondary causes do not themselves reduce potency to act). If that were the case, then more would be coming from less, potency would be perfecting potency.
A potency must be reduced to act by something that is actual, i.e. an existent substance. A person is actual. Saying secondary causes do not reduce potency to act is a completely unsubstantiated claim (like most of your claims, you provide no rationale for them.)

You try to create a conundrum by referring to a person strictly in terms of their nature. A person is not just their nature; a person is an actual thing. An actual thing can reduce potency to act.

This is a vacuous argument.
Well no it doesn’t since the potential of running does not by itself actualize running, and neither is the person who decides to run identical with that which primarily actualizes the act of running. If that were the case more would be coming from less which is a contradiction.
The person who decides to run is an actual thing with will and power and can thus actualize the act of running.

By this logic, people are pure puppets with no mind or will of their own. God must do everything for them and everything else. They do not actualize their thoughts or decisions, all of these are created and acted out by God. Everything is a direct manifestation of God. It’s pantheism and it’s plainly untrue because God cannot contradict himself.
Your understanding of secondary causation is flawed.
No, your understanding of causality in general is flawed.
The principles intrinsic to the nature of a thing is not the same thing as esse. Running is simply what a person can do if and when that potential is actualized by God.
Then God is doing it, not the person. And if the person decides to run, that decision was made by God, not the person. And if that same person decides he’s going to run to rob a bank, that decision was made and the ensuing action performed by God because a person has no power to think, decide or act for himself.
Well a creature that is not actuality can only participate in that which is actuality itself; otherwise there is no possibility of it becoming actual if the act of existence is not already a thing in-itself.
You are standing right on the border of the next logical step which eliminates all the contradictions of your argument, but you refuse to see it. Reformulating your statement above in this manner retains the heart of your claim while eliminating the metaphysical contradictions:

A creature that does not have actuality in itself can only receive actuality from that which does have actuality in itself. It becomes actual because there is something which does have esse of itself, and can thus effect that act to other things.
If it is not existence that it has as distinct from itself, then it does not have existence. It is you who is equivocating substance and actuality by making them co-dependent upon on each-other for existence which simply destroys the concept of esse as that which actualizes or perfects potential. Its incoherent since esse would be dependent on the actualization of potency in-order to be real and so what sense does it make to speak of it as that which brings potency to act?
Let’s review the principle of causality:

Any effect presupposes two things: an agent and a recipient. The agent is that which imparts the effect, and the recipient is that in which the effect is actualized. These two things considered together are called a sufficient cause. Now, not only is the act itself reduced from potency to act in this exchange, the recipient itself also has some potency actualized. It is a bit like a domino effect.

For example: a man (agent) writes his name (act) on a sheet of paper (recipient), and thus the written name (created substance) is actualized. So the act of writing is reduced from potency to act by the exchange between the man and the paper while at the same time a new substance, the written name, is also reduced from potency to act.

In like manner, God (agent) effects esse (act) in a form/essence (recipient), and thus the being (created substance) is actualized. So the act of existence is reduced from potency to act by the exchange between God and the essence while at the same time a new substance, the created being, is also reduced from potency to act.

As I have said before, you leave God’s agency out of the question because you insist on thinking of him as nothing more than a passive principle (esse).
What you are saying is obviously nonsense.
No, you just have a very insufficient grasp of the principle of cause and effect.
What is brought to act in a potential form? That which form itself is dependent upon for existence in the first place? What do you mean?
Refer to my review of causality above.
 
So now potency is reduced to act by God and not this mythical esse you keep speaking about.
Potency is reduced to act by different things. It depends what you’re talking about. The created esse is reduced to act by the interaction between God and some form; the potency towards existence of the form is in turn reduced to act by the effect of the esse.
I don’t think it is personally, since you are either saying that form reduces potency to act, or you are saying that esse reduces potency to act; which is it?
You oversimplify too much. Form is part of the causal chain of creation, as the recipient. Esse is a part of that chain as the effect. Both actualize potencies in one another, which is why they are interdependent and also why they are actualized at once, together (a being is created according to its whole substance, as the Church teaches) Being a supernatural and metaphysical act, this causal chain does not take place in a spatio-temporal order; unfortunately, we cannot describe supernatural and metaphysical realities without resorting to spatio-temporal terms. There is no reduction of potency to act in temporal order; these exchanges are all manifest immediately in the created substance.

This seems contradictory until you recognize the infinite power of God, which includes that of making non-existent things existent. (An infinite gap such as that which lies between non-existence and existence can be bridged by an infinite power.)
Esse is God. It is what he is and not only what he is doing or can do.
Saying “God is esse”, in the sense that His essence is His esse, does not lead to the conclusion that esse is God. This is a fallacious line of thinking, as can easily be demonstrated:

“Bill is a cat. Therefore, all cats are Bill.”
If esse is intrinsic to God, if God is actuality itself, then what sense does it make to say that he creates that which is itself actuality?
God is the Supreme, or greatest, actuality. He creates things–brings them into existence-- and anything which exists is an actuality. It is something in act.
I am not ignoring it, i am rejecting it because its irrational for reasons i have already presented.
The reasons you have presented are irrational.
But according to you created esse is not even a potency much less a thing in itself, so how is it logically possible that this esoteric esse can bring potency to act if it is not itself actuality?
Again, refer to my discussion of causality above.
It is not simply the case of saying a particular esse in comparison to other esse is God’s alone; as if God is just one being among many beings. The act of existence is God.
There is not a “the” act of existence. There are many “acts of existence”, among which God’s is the first, most pure and the cause and preservation of all the others.
Thus to have esse is to have God.
No, it is not. It is to be created by God.
The act of existence cannot be multiplied. Only the essence of creation can be multiplied precisely because it is not the act of existence.
A completely unsubstantiated assertion. You state this as if it’s true but you have never provided any reason to think it should be, other than the fact that you think so.
Existence is predicated analogically to creatures. Not equivocally or univocally.
I already demonstrated, through my own explanation as well as Aquinas’ own work, that what you are saying has nothing to do with the analogical predication of esse. You are committing the fallacy of argument by uninformed opinion: you have not even bothered to learn the meaning of the concept you are espousing, as will be evident to anyone who has done any substantial amount of reading on the analogy of being.

Whereas, in fact, your conception of esse is purely univocal (there is only one esse and it is the same esse in all things.) So appealing to the analogical predication of esse actually works against you, not for you. I am tempted to charge you with another fallacy: the argument by prestigious jargon.
 
I agree, so why do scientists who are Christians continue to try to prove that God exists, that He always has, and that He always will?
I don’t think it is the scientists so much as Apologists for Christianity. Some may be scientists, others may be Philosophers or Theologians. They are not trying to prove God’s existence for themselves, they are trying to demonstrate to non-believers that God does indeed exist and this can be demonstrated simply by observing the created world. It exists, only God could create it and keep it in existence.
They have already found what they call the “God gene” which some believe to be the soul of a person’s genetic material, thus a pre-determined and pre-destined gift from God to all people.
Pure speculation. Only possible. I don’t know how they could ever prove it beyond doubt.
Some are trying to answer the question of the “Worm Hole” which is described as a vacuum in our solar system.
More speculation but there seems to be good science behind it. It has nothing to do with the question of God’s existence, or non-existence.
I just think that scientists who are Christians would understand this by faith, rather than trying to prove that God existed out of nothing. By faith, it is determined that He has always existed, and always will. Therefore, God has created all things from Himself, His desires, and His Will will always be done.
Correct. Although we can prove God exists by observing the world. St. Paul tells that “…the evidence of Him is proven by the visible things He has made…”
Scientists who are not Christian (or of other Godly religions) keep trying, they will not find it. If he wants scientists to know something, he will offer them proof.
True, but He doesn’t mind if we use our God given intelligence.
However, I doubt that will ever happen, because there are just some things we will never know, nor understand, until we get to speak to Him personally…and I can’t wait!
Not sure what you mean here.

Linus2nd
 
prodigalson2011 said:
(The following is excerpted from my post #808)

Let’s review the principle of causality:

Any effect presupposes two things: an agent and a recipient. The agent is that which imparts the effect, and the recipient is that in which the effect is actualized. These two things considered together are called a sufficient cause. Now, not only is the act itself reduced from potency to act in this exchange, the recipient itself also has some potency actualized. It is a bit like a domino effect.

To clarify, a sufficient cause may consist of more than two things. By definition, a sufficient cause is the presence of all conditions necessary for a certain thing to happen. Thus there may be multiple active principles (agents) and/or multiple passive principles (recipients) involved in any given effect, but there will always be at least one of each. The action of the agent is also considered a part of the sufficient cause.

While I have framed the concept in my own terms here, the difference is purely one of perspective; the truth of the principle remains the same, as I believe will be readily evident to the discerning reader.
 
The Gravity of the Situation: ?

You have probably tied a string to a ball and whirled it around and felt the tug of the ball as it tried to escape from your pull.

Now imagine no string at all, and what happens to the ball?

Now imagine the earth whizzing around the sun with no visible “string” preventing it from flying off into space, but with an invisible “string” which we call gravity?

The pull you felt on the ball was representative of the invisible force which pulls the earth in its orbit around the sun. Imagine the awesome power of the forces of gravity which are required to keep the universe in the well ordered state of which it is in?

Why hasn’t science been able to detect such a universal force as gravity, despite many ingenious methods used to unravel its mystery?

Could it be that the ways and the powers of GOD are to remain undetectable by any human means?

"Keep discussing folks,I am learning as we all are ! "

God Bless
onenow1 🍕
 
A few more thoughts and modifications.
  1. Earlier I said:
As I have said before, you leave God’s agency out of the question because you insist on thinking of him as nothing more than a passive principle (esse).
This was an obvious error on my part. Of course esse is an active principle (as I have been asserting throughout the course of this debate… don’t know what happened here… brain fart, I guess. :D) What I was driving at, though, was that speaking of God as though he were a part of other things diminishes the understanding of his creative act as distinct from Himself.
  1. To expand on this point:
Form is part of the causal chain of creation, as the recipient. Esse is a part of that chain as the effect. Both actualize potencies in one another, which is why they are interdependent and also why they are actualized at once, together (a being is created according to its whole substance, as the Church teaches)
I seem to remember offering this analogy before, but I can’t find it and plus I think it would be helpful to repeat it even if I had. Anyway, as far as interdependent systems of causality are concerned, we can take for an example the case of the brain and the lungs.

The brain depends, for its activity, on the supply of oxygen provided by the lungs/circulatory system. The lungs and the circulatory system, for their part, depend on the brain’s activity for their own operation. So we have a clear case of at least two acts reduced from potency by one another. It seems paradoxical until we consider that they find their origin in yet a higher cause: the gestational activity of the mother (via the umbilical cord) which is sufficient to bridge that seemingly impossible gulf and, eventually, develop them into a functional whole.

Similarly, God, being of infinite power, is sufficient to bridge the infinite gulf between essence and esse (the former having only logical potency and the latter requiring some potency to actualize in order to be actualized itself.)
 
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