How does Marian devotion save?

  • Thread starter Thread starter GreatScott7
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Only God is infallible. But one, through study and illumination by the Holy Spirit, can interpret the Scriptures accurately. Else Paul would have not written to Timothy to accurately handle the Word of truth.
It brings great joy to me for you to admit that you are not infallible. Having admitted that, we can all breathe a sigh of relief when we read your own interpretations (your own personal oral tradition) of Scripture.

Yes, you are fallible. That being so, I call your interpretations of Scripture also fallible and therefore untrustworthy.
 
Tradition,” my friend, is not one’s interpretation of Scripture, or how he arrived at it, but the supposed teachings (doctrines) of the Apostles that were supposedly not written and preserved in Scripture but supposedly handed down, infallibly, by men, orally.

Paul writes to Timothy:2 Tim 2:15 "Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth."I don’t think this directive only applies to Timothy. All who call themselves Christian should study God’s Word. And in so doing one should employ the works of other men as a resource to aid him in “handling accurately the Word of truth.” I study the Word of God and have in my library many literary works of others who have also studied “the Word of truth.” All this has to do with what God has revealed to us in the Scriptures and nothing to do with some supposed “oral” tradition comprised of doctrines completely different from what was preserved for us in Holy Writ. Paul wrote to the church at Thessalonica:2 Thess 2:15 "So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or by letter from us."Whether by word (orally), or by letter (written), they were the SAME traditions, the SAME teachings. What we have preserved in the Scriptures are the doctrines regarding the faith that the Apostles taught to the churches. That’s why scribes from earliest times copied the Scriptures to preserve them. That’s why Christians should study them in order to test “the tradition of men,” heeding this warning by the Apostle Paul:Col 2:8 “See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.”
By tradition in its widest sense we mean the transmission of the truths of salvation, in whatever manner, by the teaching office of the Catholic Church. Tradition in the stricter sense is the transmission of revealed truths or precepts otherwise than by Scripture. The doctrines and institutions thus handed down, whether written or unwriten, are themselves frequently called traditions. Such traditions are called oral as contrasted with the inspired writings. We speak here not of apostolic or ecclesiastical traditions as such, but of those that trace their origin from Christ Himself and the Holy Spirit.
 
If you knew the Bible you’d know it does not go beyond the first century (the Bible isn’t about the history of Christendom). It’s not my spin on history - it’s history.
I dare say, wrong on all counts.
 
Hi. I’ve seen Many sites and prayerbooks say things like “Mary is the salvation of those who invoke her”, or “Pure and immaculate Queen, save me, and deliver me from eternal damnation,” and that wearing the scapular and praying the rosary daily will “save the world.” But what I want to know is, what is the mechanism behind these claims? By what means does devotion to Mary save people? Devotion to and belief in Jesus has obvious means of salvation, but Mary, it’s a little more murky. Anyone know?
Mary leads us to Jesus
 
to the protestants.

If Sola scripture is true, then all forms of xianity- catholic, protestant, nondenominational, etc are false.

If all scripture is to be interpreted in context of scripture, then the only way to prove Jesus would be to prove Jesus in the context of scrpture that God had revealed to men at that time.

which means if you have to take any verse out of context, then “text, without context is pretext”

so either God has provided a historically verifiable, consistent interpretation protected within His church (gates of hell shall not prevail against it) or xianity from matthew on is false.

so since there can only be ONE Lord, ONE faith, ONE baptism, there can only be ONE church, and ONE interpretation, ONE way, etc.

so, turn to the church of Christ, or continue in the church of satan. if your church meets on sunday, incorporated instruments, hymnals, xmas, easter, the Bible, then you are not infact a Sola scripture protestant, but rather a rebellious catholic- and rebellion is likened to what other sin??

in short. either what the catholic church says is true. or xianity of anysort- is false.
 
Wow…wait a minute…you’re saying that if Mary said “no” then Jesus would not have become incarnate, suffered, died, rose, and ascended to glory? Mary…a human…had the ability to thwart God’s plan?

Say more, please!
Just a little side note here: whenever we turn our back on God and sin, we thwart a little bit of His plans, at least as it pertains to us. Best example I can think of. That and Adam and Eve. And, um… probably every single person at the moment they commit sin. To deny this, I think, risks stating that God is directly complicit with that sin, and that cannot be. He allows it because He will not revoke His gift of free will to us.

But as for thwarting His plans, that would probably not be true for the grand scheme, because God can make good come even from evil. So when we turn our backs on Him and His plans, that doesn’t mean He would not be able to bring about what He intended in the first place.

At another level, He can and probably does prepare His plans in such a way that someone like Mary would NOT reject His plans. She was indeed full of grace, blessed among all women, and all that would enable her to decide and act with supernatural charity and wisdom, I’m guessing. But God would not have forced her to say or do what was against her will, since coercion like that would be evil. But because God is who He is, His plans can be laid out so perfectly that Mary would not have rejected God’s plan. But she had the freedom to do so.

Just my understanding. Someone please correct me if I am wrong here.

Anyway, concerning Mary saving us, there’s probably room to be more specific about what “saving” means there. As it concerns justifying us, or even sanctifying us, neither St. Paul nor the Blessed Virgin can do that directly. Only God can do that. On the other hand, indirectly, any saint can, for example, be instrumental in God’s actions. For example, Mary, mother of our Hope (who is Christ), also brought us our Savior. In that sense, I think, she brought salvation, literally in her womb and out into the world. But not by her own power, only by cooperation. So she is never the source of salvation, but she can and was the bearer.

In our prayers interceding for others, we also bring God’s grace. In our acts of charity, we also bring God’s charity. In preaching the gospel, we bear the good news to those who hear. And in bringing people to Christ through preaching, prayer or example, we bring them salvation. Only as cooperative ambassadors, friends, servants, but there you have it anyway.

As far as devotion to Mary helps, it is probably reasonable to say the same thing. Since Marian dogmas are always a reference to Christ, pointing to him, telling us “do whatever he [Jesus] tells you”, then it helps us along our salvation. Remember, once saved (at baptism, for example) is not always saved. In order to remain saved, we must cooperate with God’s grace, primarily in resisting sin but also in growing in faith. Marian devotion, assuming that which is approved by the Church, would encourage shunning sin and growth in faith. For example, the Rosary is a powerful devotion, the focus of which is a life of reflection in the mysteries of Christ’s life and our lives intertwined with it. Now please note that Marian devotion is not mandatory in the Church. We are not required to pray the Rosary, or say novenas, for example. So we can say that Marian devotion is not necessary to salvation. But in the ways I mentioned above, I think it is reasonable to suggest that Marian devotion is an aid (the most powerful one among saintly devotions, I think) to our journey to salvation, but this salvation has as its source God’s grace alone.

It is also dangerous to have a “God and me alone” mentality, since what God seems to have designed and developed throughout salvation history is very much familial. He encourages us to grow in this family, as He is the author of what a family is. He encourages us to assist one another, as we are encouraged to seek help from one another, too.

Hope that helps.
 
He saved us[/I], not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,”

Ok, so I don’t know if this is something that has already been commented on, but I felt that I needed to say something. This key words of this verse are “done in righteousness”. Works done to make us appear more “righteous” or “pious” are not worth a hill of beans, but true faith requires works done from the heart.

James 2:20 “Faith without works is dead.”

If we are not feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, etc, then our faith is nothing but words. (see Matthew 25: 31-36. The sheep and the goats are separated by their works.)
 
Ok, so I don’t know if this is something that has already been commented on, but I felt that I needed to say something. This key words of this verse are “done in righteousness”. Works done to make us appear more “righteous” or “pious” are not worth a hill of beans, but true faith requires works done from the heart.

James 2:20 “Faith without works is dead.”

If we are not feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, etc, then our faith is nothing but words. (see Matthew 25: 31-36. The sheep and the goats are separated by their works.)
No, they’re separated by their identity. He separates the “sheep” from the “goats.” They’re not separated by their works, they’re separated by their identity. Their identity determined their works. This is not a judgment, it’s a separation based on identity: sheep vs. goats.
 
Mary leads us to Jesus
Very concise and very accurate! 🙂

LilyM said:
‘I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some.’ (1 Corinthians 9:22).

Surely Paul cannot be claiming to be able to save people? Indeed he is!

The answer to this seeming difficulty lies in another of Paul’s statements - “it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me” (Galatians 2:20).

When Christ truly lives in someone as He did and does in both Paul and Mary, their thoughts, words and actions and everything about them become His. Likewise, surely not unsurprisingly, everything about HIM becomes theirs, as the very wounds of His crucifixion became the stigmata of St Francis and St Pio.

👍 Well said!

That is exactly right. Mary leads us to Jesus, Who is our Salvation, and thus she saves. One might imagine someone running to a fireman when his house is on fire, and the fireman comes and saves everyone in the house. Both the person who ran for help and the fireman are necessary. Marian devotion saves because it leads us to Jesus.
 
No, they’re separated by their identity. He separates the “sheep” from the “goats.” They’re not separated by their works, they’re separated by their identity. Their identity determined their works. This is not a judgment, it’s a separation based on identity: sheep vs. goats.
And you base this statement on what pray tell?
 
No, they’re separated by their identity. He separates the “sheep” from the “goats.” They’re not separated by their works, they’re separated by their identity. Their identity determined their works. This is not a judgment, it’s a separation based on identity: sheep vs. goats.
Wrong again, Moondweller! The Divine Judgment is the accounting for one’s own life, which every man must render after death to God, Lord and Supreme Judge, to receive reward or punishment according to his merits.

Sola Scriptura keeps getting you into trouble time and time again.

The particular judgment will take place immediately after death, as is proved (a) from Holy Scripture: The parable of the rich man and Lazarus, of whom the first dies and goes to hell, the other to Abraham’s bosom (paradise), two places eternally separated by an impossible abyss; St. Paul, close to death, yearned for the “crown of justice,” which Christ the Judge will give him and those who will have lived like him (2 Timothy 4:6); elsewhere he says explicitly: “It is appointed unto men once to die, and after this judgment” (Hebrews 9:27).

Just so you know, merit is the right to a reward due to a morally good action. Supernatural merit is that which arises from an action performed under the influence of divine grace, and thus in relationship with the supernatural end: the beatific vision.

Again, just for your information, there are five conditions required for supernatural merit:
  1. state of mortal life
  2. state of sanctifying grace
  3. free will
  4. good work
  5. divine agreement or consent (accepting and ordering the good work to its reward)
Lutheranism, from which your theology flows, holds human nature intrinsically corrupted by original sin to the point of the loss of free will, which denies all possibility of merit in man. This serious error was condemned by the Fathers at the Council of Trent (Sacred Tradition and legitimate Church authority at work) asserting both free will and, under the influence of grace, merit.
 
Wrong again, Moondweller! The Divine Judgment is the accounting for one’s own life, which every man must render after death to God, Lord and Supreme Judge, to receive reward or punishment according to his merits.

Sola Scriptura keeps getting you into trouble time and time again.

The particular judgment will take place immediately after death, as is proved (a) from Holy Scripture:
What’s taking place in Matt. 25:31ff is not a judgment, it’s a separation according to identity: sheep vs. goats. It’s not a judgment of dead people, it’s a separation of those living on the earth (Gentile nations to be exact, Matt. 25:32). In those verses Jesus has returned to this earth and is now ruling over the earth as King (vss. 31, 34; cf. 19:28; Rev. 3:21). The Kingdom that the “sheep” inherit is Christ’s promised, earthly, Messianic, Millennial Kingdom which He sets up at His return. These “sheep” enter into that kingdom as mortals.
 
What’s taking place in Matt. 25:31ff is not a judgment, it’s a separation according to identity: sheep vs. goats. It’s not a judgment of dead people, it’s a separation of those living on the earth (Gentile nations to be exact, Matt. 25:32). In those verses Jesus has returned to this earth and is now ruling over the earth as King (vss. 31, 34; cf. 19:28; Rev. 3:21). The Kingdom that the “sheep” inherit is Christ’s promised, earthly, Messianic, Millennial Kingdom which He sets up at His return. These “sheep” enter into that kingdom as mortals.
Someone has sold you a bill of goods and you have fallen for it hook, line and sinker.

Review post #339.
 
It brings great joy to me for you to admit that you are not infallible. Having admitted that, we can all breathe a sigh of relief when we read your own interpretations (your own personal oral tradition) of Scripture.

Yes, you are fallible. That being so, I call your interpretations of Scripture also fallible and therefore untrustworthy.
One need not be infallible to, through study of the Scriptures and the help of the Holy Spirit who indwells him (He indwells all born again christians), achieve an accurate interpretation.

No man, save the Son of Man, is infallible. Now you can assign infallibility to men if you wish, and even believe it, but your assigning them that attribute (or they claiming it) doesn’t make them infallible.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top