How does Marian devotion save?

[ecohlman]

“Pillars” and “foundations” are supports. The church is to support “the truth” (tês alêtheias). It, itself, is not an infallible truth. It is not, itself, “the truth.”

I apologize if this has already been mentioned, but in order for the church to be the pillar and foundation of Truth, it must be infallible in its teaching, or it is no longer a support or foundation since it would become weakened. Also keep in mind that the ONLY church that existed at this time, since all professed the same faith, was the universal (Catholic) church.

Also, see Ephesians 3: 9-10
and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. His intent was that now, **through the church,**the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms

emphasis mine, but notice is says that the CHURCH not SCRIPTURE will make known the manifold wisdom of God.

 

[ecohlman]

What’s taking place in Matt. 25:31ff is not a judgment, it’s a separation according to identity: sheep vs. goats. It’s not a judgment of dead people, it’s a separation of those living on the earth (Gentile nations to be exact, Matt. 25:32). In those verses Jesus has returned to this earth and is now ruling over the earth as King (vss. 31, 34; cf. 19:28; Rev. 3:21). The Kingdom that the “sheep” inherit is Christ’s promised, earthly, Messianic, Millennial Kingdom which He sets up at His return. These “sheep” enter into that kingdom as mortals.

Okay I will bite, if they are being separated by their identity though, what is it that defines them? Verse 35-40 specifically detail out the works done by the sheep and not done by the goats. It is their works, or lack there of, that separates them. I also think that when Jesus tells the sheep to “Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.” and then tells the goats, “Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels”, that sounds like judgment to me. So I looked up the biblical definition of judgment and it is the act of forever separating the righteous from the evil. Yep, the separating of the sheep and goats sounds like judgment to me.

 

[ecohlman]

One more thing…

Holy Scripture was divinely authored by God, but it was still penned in man’s imperfect language. In order to fully understand, you must also look at the apostles, and writings that exist written by people that were close to them, and how they lived out what they were personally told by Our Lord Jesus Christ. This is apostolic tradition. This is also why scripture tells us that we must have an interpreter, the Holy Spirit. Moondweller, Can you honestly tell me that you know without a doubt that the “revelations” or understanding that you have of scripture came directly from the Holy Spirit and not by your flesh? Can you prove it?

You see, I know that I can not always trust that my understanding is of the Spirit or of myself. Luckily for me as a Catholic, scripture also tells us that the church is the pillar of Truth, so I know without a doubt, since Christ gave this right to the church, that the Church doctrine is inspired and confirmed by the Holy Spirit.

May the Lord be with you!

 

[moondweller]

I apologize if this has already been mentioned, but in order for the church to be the pillar and foundation of Truth, it must be infallible in its teaching, or it is no longer a support or foundation since it would become weakened.

No, my friend, it says “the pillar and support of the truth.” It does not say that the church IS the truth.

Also keep in mind that the ONLY church that existed at this time, since all professed the same faith, was the universal (Catholic) church.

Paul does mean the church universal. At the time Paul wrote his letter to Timothy there were many churches, i.e., local assemblies (Paul planted many of them himself on his missionary journeys). Paul wrote his Epistles to some of them and even the resurrected Christ addressed seven of them in the Book of Revelation.

But still there is only ONE true church (universal & spiritual) which Christ was and is Himself building to this very hour, and will be taken up to Him. If that church is and always was the Western Roman Catholic Church and its Bishops, then the Book of Romans should be the only Epistle in the N.T., and Christ needed only to address the Bishops of Rome (He didn’t). But the truth is the Western church, which called itself the “Catholic Church,” did not come into existence until much later in history. Paul knew nothing of the “Catholic Church” in the West or the “Orthodox Church” in the East. So he had neither of these in mind when he wrote that “the church” is the pillar and support of the truth. I briefly addressed the history of Christendom in two previous posts.

 

[moondweller]

Okay I will bite, if they are being separated by their identity though, what is it that defines them?

Their identity as either sheep or goats.

Verse 35-40 specifically detail out the works done by the sheep and not done by the goats.

Yes, this is true. But may I ask you, did Paul do works before he was saved or after? Before he became one of Christ’s sheep, or after? You see, those works of compassion were the result of their being “sheep.” Only the saved, “by grace through faith” are considered His sheep, and He knows them.

Yep, the separating of the sheep and goats sounds like judgment to me.

There is no judgment going on in that passage. Only a separation of sheep and goats. They’re not being “judged” as sheep or goats. He separates them accordingly. They were either"sheep" or “goats” prior to His arrival and their separation.

 

[Tomster]

What’s taking place in Matt. 25:31ff is not a judgment, it’s a separation according to identity: sheep vs. goats. It’s not a judgment of dead people, it’s a separation of those living on the earth (Gentile nations to be exact, Matt. 25:32). In those verses Jesus has returned to this earth and is now ruling over the earth as King (vss. 31, 34; cf. 19:28; Rev. 3:21). The Kingdom that the “sheep” inherit is Christ’s promised, earthly, Messianic, Millennial Kingdom which He sets up at His return. These “sheep” enter into that kingdom as mortals.

Again, your self interpretation, with or without the help of someone else’s oral tradition, is wrong.

For you see, that the Church, the pillar and ground of truth, has already decided the matter.

In the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the one true Church, it states:

“Before Christ’s second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers. (Luke 18:8, Matthew 24:12) The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth (Luke 21:12; John 15:19-20) will unveil the ‘mystery of inquity’ in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.” (2 Thessalonians 2:4-12; 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3; 2 John 7; 1 John 2:18,22). CCC # 675

And, again:

“The Antichrist’s deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatalogical judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism, especially the “intrinsically perverse” political form of a secular messianism.” CCC # 676.

 

[Tomster]

What’s taking place in Matt. 25:31ff is not a judgment, it’s a separation according to identity: sheep vs. goats. It’s not a judgment of dead people, it’s a separation of those living on the earth (Gentile nations to be exact, Matt. 25:32). In those verses Jesus has returned to this earth and is now ruling over the earth as King (vss. 31, 34; cf. 19:28; Rev. 3:21). The Kingdom that the “sheep” inherit is Christ’s promised, earthly, Messianic, Millennial Kingdom which He sets up at His return. These “sheep” enter into that kingdom as mortals.

The reality of the last judgment in Sacred Scripture and Tradition:

Aside from the great conflagration which is to destroy the earth, the General Judgment will be the last important event in the history of the human race. This event is so intimately connected with the Resurrection of the dead, that no room remains for a terrestrial reign of Christ and His saints (millenium) which, as you hold,is to precede the end of the world. That there will be a general judgment, and that it will be held by Christ in person, has always been an article of faith in the Catholic Church, as may be seen from its ancient creeds. The Apostles’ Creed expresses this belief in the words: “From whence He [Christ] shall come, to judge the living and the dead.”

Few truths are more clearly and insistently proclaimed in Scripture than this. The New Testament in particular speaks time and again of the “second coming” of Christ as the Universal Judge, in opposition to his “first coming” as the Redeemer. This “second coming” is commonly called the parousia, i.e. advent; sometimes “epiphany”, i.e. apparition, and sometimes “apocalypse”, i.e. revelation. Our Lord Himself predicted the General Judgment (Matthew 24: 27 sqq.; 25: 31 sqq) and the Apostles echoed his teaching. St. James says: “Be patient, therefore brethren until the coming of the Lord . . . Grudge not one against another, that you may not be judged. Behold the Judge standeth before the door.” St. Peter writes: “But the day of the Lord shall come as a thief; . . . what manner of people ought you to be in holy conversation and godliness, looking for and hasting unto the coming of the Lord, by which the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall mely with burning heat.” ( 2 Peter 3: 10 sqq.)

Thought the writings of the Apostolic Fathers are tinged with your Chiliastic views, the dogma of the Last Judgment has a solid Patristical foundation. Clement of Rome refers to Christ as “judge of the living and the dead.” In the so-called Epistle of Barnabas we read that the Son of God is “destined to judge the living and the dead.” Tertullian writes: “Christ will return on the clouds of heaven, the same as He arose.”

 

[Tomster]

What’s taking place in Matt. 25:31ff is not a judgment, it’s a separation according to identity: sheep vs. goats. It’s not a judgment of dead people, it’s a separation of those living on the earth (Gentile nations to be exact, Matt. 25:32). In those verses Jesus has returned to this earth and is now ruling over the earth as King (vss. 31, 34; cf. 19:28; Rev. 3:21). The Kingdom that the “sheep” inherit is Christ’s promised, earthly, Messianic, Millennial Kingdom which He sets up at His return. These “sheep” enter into that kingdom as mortals.

The favorite passage of Chiliasts is in the Apocalypse 20:1 sqq. This is undoubtably the most difficult and obscure passage found in Sacred Scritpure, and no one yet succeeded in explaining it satisfactorily. But it proves nothing in favor of Millenarianism, which has no claim to our assent unless it can show that its tenets do not conflict with the general teaching of the Bible.

Chiliasm has no foundation in Tradition. Among the opponents of Chiliasm were Clement of Alexandria, Origen, and Dionysius, Bishop of Alexandria, whom Eusebius honored with the title of Great and St. Athanasius called a Doctor of the Church.

Your heresy, the one you swallowed hook, line and sinker from someone else’s oral tradition, is just about as old as the True Church is. Fortunately, the True Church, the Pillar and Ground of Truth, has the authority to condemn it in light of the moral law. Millenarianism is simply untenable.

 

[Tomster]

Their identity as either sheep or goats.Yes, this is true. But may I ask you, did Paul do works before he was saved or after? Before he became one of Christ’s sheep, or after? You see, those works of compassion were the result of their being “sheep.” Only the saved, “by grace through faith” are considered His sheep, and He knows them.There is no judgment going on in that passage. Only a separation of sheep and goats. They’re not being “judged” as sheep or goats. He separates them accordingly. They were either"sheep" or “goats” prior to His arrival and their separation.

It seems you are having an identity crisis, Moondweller. As for me, my identity is that I am a child of God and heir to heaven. Now, because of free will, I can throw my birth right away and choose hell or I can persevere to the end and be rewarded as God’s good and faithful servant. As for my ultimate fate, I will not know it until the split second after I die.

 

[Tomster]

Their identity as either sheep or goats.Yes, this is true. But may I ask you, did Paul do works before he was saved or after? Before he became one of Christ’s sheep, or after? You see, those works of compassion were the result of their being “sheep.” Only the saved, “by grace through faith” are considered His sheep, and He knows them.There is no judgment going on in that passage. Only a separation of sheep and goats. They’re not being “judged” as sheep or goats. He separates them accordingly. They were either"sheep" or “goats” prior to His arrival and their separation.

Moondweller,

A few qustions for you.

As you probably know there are some conflicting teachings regarding the “millenium” among the different sects who believe it.

Are the pre-trib’s correct and the post-trib’s wrong?

Or

Are the pre-trib’s wrong and the post-trib’s correct?

Who can authoritatively decide within the different sects which teaching is correct and which teaching is not?

Since you do not believe in any form of authentic Church teaching use Scripture to prove your point please. Additionally, please tell us how the Holy Spirit illumined you to come up with the correct answer.

ANSWERS PLEASE!

 

[moondweller]

Millenarianism is simply untenable.

Only if you spiritualize/allegorize all the O.T. prophecies. Those prophecies tell us of a literal, earthly Kingdom over which the Messiah, the Son of David (Jesus Christ) will rule in peace and righteousness. I have my doubts that you’ve ever personally studied the O.T. prophets, Tom. With the advent of the Internet it’s easy to parrot other people’s opinions without having done any personal study.

Millenarianism (and Premillennialism) is greatly tenable when men don’t, in unbelief, spiritualize/allegorize it away. Just as they, in unbelief, deny the eternal salvation that God gifts to men, apart from works, through personal faith in Jesus Christ alone.

 

[moondweller]

It seems you are having an identity crisis, Moondweller.

How do you come up with that? I, in fact, have no identity crisis. I know my Shepherd and my Shepherd knows me.

As for me, my identity is that I am a child of God and heir to heaven. Now, because of free will, I can throw my birth right away and choose hell or I can persevere to the end and be rewarded as God’s good and faithful servant. As for my ultimate fate, I will not know it until the split second after I die.

Based on this statement it’s you who have the identity crisis, Tom. You cannot, positively, identify yourself as a child of God and heir to heaven, since, in your own words: “I will not know it until the split second after I die.” The reason for this is because in Catholicism there is no concept of “saved.” In this life you cannot truly identify yourself as one of His sheep. That’s because according to it (Catholicism) your future salvation is based on your present performance. Not through personal faith in Christ’s, once for all, historic performance.

 

[moondweller]

Moondweller,

A few qustions for you.

As you probably know there are some conflicting teachings regarding the “millenium” among the different sects who believe it.

The belief in Millennarianism is not according to any “sect.” In fact, it was the predominate belief amongst the churches for the first 300 years. Amillennialism didn’t take hold until after the fourth century and that’s because men began to allegorize the prophetic Scriptures.

Are the pre-trib’s correct and the post-trib’s wrong?

Yes

Or

Are the pre-trib’s wrong and the post-trib’s correct?

This is answered based on my previous answer.

Who can authoritatively decide within the different sects which teaching is correct and which teaching is not?

The belief is not the teaching of any “sect.” There can be pre-tribers and post-tribers attending the same church. One’s salvation is not based on one’s eschatological beliefs. As for authority, it rests in the Scriptures themselves. Always has. It’s men who always want to usurp their inherent, Divine authority.

Since you do not believe in any form of authentic Church teaching use Scripture to prove your point please.

Pre-Mill/Pre-Trib’ism is based on a consistent, literal interpretation of the prophetic Scriptures (Israel remains Israel, the church remains the church. The latter does not replace the former in Scripture - which is called “Replacement Theology” - a theology of men).

Additionally, please tell us how the Holy Spirit illumined you to come up with the correct answer.

Prayer, study and reliance on Him.

 

[Tomster]

The belief in Millennarianism is not according to any “sect.” In fact, it was the predominate belief amongst the churches for the first 300 years. Amillennialism didn’t take hold until after the fourth century and that’s because men began to allegorize the prophetic Scriptures.YesThis is answered based on my previous answer.The belief is not the teaching of any “sect.” There can be pre-tribers and post-tribers attending the same church. One’s salvation is not based on one’s eschatological beliefs. As for authority, it rests in the Scriptures themselves. Always has. It’s men who always want to usurp their inherent, Divine authority.Pre-Mill/Pre-Trib’ism is based on a consistent, literal interpretation of the prophetic Scriptures (Israel remains Israel, the church remains the church. The latter does not replace the former in Scripture - which is called “Replacement Theology” - a theology of men).Prayer, study and reliance on Him.

I see you like to dance, mainly the two-step shuffle.

 

[anthony022071]

The problem with all this, Anthony, is the early writers knew nothing of the “Catholic Church” that would develop in Western Christendom. There’s a vast difference between the church Christ Himself is building and the history of the Western and Eastern churches developed over time by men.

The Church Fathers knew that the Catholic Church was sustained by the Spirit of Christ and that it would never would never teach false doctrines. More specifically,they knew that the Church of Rome would never teach false doctrines,because that is the seat of Peter,of whom Jesus said his faith would never fail.

Since when is the Church that the Fathers belonged to,which was founded by Christ,left unguided by the Spirit of Christ and left at the mercy of historical processes? When do you think that the Catholic Church of the early centuries ceased to be the true Church,and for what reasons? The Church of the Fathers had ecclesiastical heirarchy,apostolic succession,the belief in transubstantiation,devotions to Mary and the other saints,

 

[anthony022071]

Edited:

The Church of the Fathers had ecclesiastical heirarchy,apostolic succession,the belief in transubstantiation,devotions to Mary and the other saints and the belief in their intercession,confession to priests,penance and indulgences,and the belief that good works were necessary for salvation. And in the 4th century,the Church gained influence over the political order because of Constantine’s Act of Toleration and because the faith had been widely accepted among all classes of people in the Empire.

 

[MariaG]

How do you come up with that? I, in fact, have no identity crisis. I know my Shepherd and my Shepherd knows me.Based on this statement it’s you who have the identity crisis, Tom. You cannot, positively, identify yourself as a child of God and heir to heaven, since, in your own words: “I will not know it until the split second after I die.” The reason for this is because in Catholicism there is no concept of “saved.” In this life you cannot truly identify yourself as one of His sheep. That’s because according to it (Catholicism) your future salvation is based on your present performance. Not through personal faith in Christ’s, once for all, historic performance.

Absolutely false.

Our past, present and future salvation are purely by God’s grace. But we do not commit a sin of presuming on His grace. Scripture clearly tells us that there will be those who call out to the Lord, and He will not know them.

You may certainly choose to believe your own interpretation of scripture over that of the apostles, and even convince yourself that yours is more “scriptural” than that of the apostolic teachings of the Catholic church, but please refrain from making false statements about catholic teachings. No where in Catholic teaching is it stated that ones performances earns one heaven.

 

[moondweller]

When do you think that the Catholic Church of the early centuries ceased to be the true Church,and for what reasons?

I never said “the Catholic Church” was the true church (or the “Orthodox”). So how could I ever say it “ceased to be the true Church.” I did say on this thread, however, that the true church which Christ has been building since Pentecost transcends ALL local assemblies (churches).

The Church of the Fathers had ecclesiastical heirarchy,apostolic succession,the belief in transubstantiation,devotions to Mary and the other saints,

All these extrabiblical doctrines formulated over time and after the Apostolic age.

But in the beginning there were many churches (local assemblies, read the Book of Acts) in which elders were appointed.Acts 14:23 “When they had appointed elders for them in every church, having prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord in whom they had believed.”

Titus 1:5 "For this reason I left you in Crete, that you would set in order what remains and appoint elders in every city as I directed you,"Notice in Acts 14:23 the elders were commended (given in charge) to the Lord in whom they believed. They were not commended to some distant elders (presbuteros) residing in the city of Rome. You’ll find nothing of the sort in Scripture or in any Apostolic teachings in the Epistles. Elders (presbuteros) and overseers (episkopos) are one and the same (Titus 1:5-9). They were appointed to govern over their own local assemblies. NONE were instructed to report to Rome. You need to read the history of Christendom to understand how it all evolved.

 

[SempirVeritas]

moon,
i by my own interpretation of scripture using context and original language have concluded that

1. there is no trinity, only the absolute unity of God as the Jews believe
2. the writings of paul are heretical.
3. the idea that God changed the day for corporate worship to sunday is also heretical
4. unless you follow the laws of YHWH as given through moses, you can not be a true follower of Jesus.

whats more, anyone who disagrees with me is hell bound. because this is what scripture teaches. and, I can also point you too plenty of PHDs, and insanely smart ppl who aggree with numbers 1-4 and my interpretation.

you tell me who is right? me or you.​

2 guys, both presumably love God, desire to serve God, and desire to rightly divide scripture using scripture and plain simple logic both are using the exact same versions… yet each one arrives at a completely opposite interpretation, so different that we mean one has the true gospel, one has a false gospel- that diametrically opposed. who is right? same bible, same desire, same intent, same knowledge of scripture, same fluency in Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic.​

see moon, just because you can read scripture- which is a good thing, doesnt mean that God intends you to be the interpreter of it. Just because im a dude doesnt mean i should be a priest, theres a whole list of things that i can do, but i shouldnt do, because thats not my position.

 

[ecohlman]

No, my friend, it says “the pillar and support of the truth.” It does not say that the church IS the truth.

Correct, and for the church to be the pillar of the Truth, it must be infallible in its teaching, if it is not, then it is no longer a pillar of support for the Truth and everything would come crashing in.

Paul does mean the church universal. At the time Paul wrote his letter to Timothy there were many churches, i.e., local assemblies (Paul planted many of them himself on his missionary journeys). Paul wrote his Epistles to some of them and even the resurrected Christ addressed seven of them in the Book of Revelation.

But still there is only ONE true church (universal & spiritual) which Christ was and is Himself building to this very hour, and will be taken up to Him. If that church is and always was the Western Roman Catholic Church and its Bishops, then the Book of Romans should be the only Epistle in the N.T., and Christ needed only to address the Bishops of Rome (He didn’t). But the truth is the Western church, which called itself the “Catholic Church,” did not come into existence until much later in history. Paul knew nothing of the “Catholic Church” in the West or the “Orthodox Church” in the East. So he had neither of these in mind when he wrote that “the church” is the pillar and support of the truth. I briefly addressed the history of Christendom in two previous posts.

This is also correct, there were many churches, but they all professed one faith, a universal faith, and followed the same teachings and doctrines. Just like the Roman Catholic, and Eastern Orthodox Catholics today. They are all Catholics, and profess the same faith and support the same doctrine, just have different disciplines.