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diggerdomer
Guest
That link is not Catholic teaching. So, again, I’m surprised.
What do you mean about the Nicene Creed? I believe, profess, and pray it, as all Christians do. Thanks for any clarification.
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What do you mean about the Nicene Creed? I believe, profess, and pray it, as all Christians do. Thanks for any clarification.
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nuntym
Guest
Ah, I apologize.
Well, of course the doctrines of Mary as Co-Redemptrix and Mediatrix of All Graces are not yet infallibly defined, but Mary as the new Ark of the Covenant is well entrenched in Catholic teaching:
CCC 2676: … Full of grace, the Lord is with thee: These two phrases of the angel’s greeting shed light on one another. Mary is full of grace because the Lord is with her. The grace with which she is filled is the presence of him who is the source of all grace. “Rejoice . . . O Daughter of Jerusalem . . . the Lord your God is in your midst.” Mary, in whom the Lord himself has just made his dwelling, is the daughter of Zion in person, the ark of the covenant, the place where the glory of the Lord dwells. She is “the dwelling of God . . . with men.” Full of grace, Mary is wholly given over to him who has come to dwell in her and whom she is about to give to the world.
I mean, if that is really true, if you believe, profess, and pray the Nicene Creed, then why do you say that
since the Nicene Creed should apply yesterday, today, and forever where appropriate, even before the Incarnation?
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diggerdomer
Guest
Mary as Co-Redemptrix and Mediatrix of All Graces are not only not infallibly defined, they are also **not **Catholic doctrine.
Regarding the Nicene Creed, again, why do I say “what”? Sorry, I don’t understand your question/concern. Thanks.
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nuntym
Guest
Ah, my mistake. Catholic Doctrine is a teaching that is required by all Catholics to believe in. Since the Marian doctrines of Co-Redemptrix and Mediatrix of All Graces are not yet formally defined, no Catholic is required to believe them, and thus these doctrines cannot be Catholic.
Thank you for that point, diggerdomer.
No, I am troubled when you say that “The Nicene Creed came about centuries after the Incarnation, so I don’t see how that applies,” when the Nicene Creed even references about the creation of the world!
So you think the Nicene Creed cannot be applied to what was before the Incarnation?
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Elizium23
Guest
diggerdomer’s bare assertions without any citation are tiresome. Co-redemptrix and Mediatrix are Catholic teachings. Please refute the following sources and show your work.
CCC 969. “…Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.” Lumen Gentium 62]
CCC 970 in its entirety again cites Lumen Gentium.
CCC 975 cites Paul VI’s Credo of the People of God.
Ephrem the Syrian prayed: After the mediator, the mediatrix of the whole world
Irenaeus referred to Mary as “causa salutis.” [cause of our salvation]
Father Frederick William Faber.
advisor to the Holy Office Father Gabriel Roschini explained that Mary did not only participate in birth of the physical Jesus, but, with conception, she entered with him into a spiritual union. The divine salvation plan, being not only material, includes a permanent spiritual unity with Christ.
Pope Leo XIII relied on Thomas Aquinas.
Pope Pius X issued his encyclical Ad Diem Illum which is an important document, because it explains his mariology.
Pope Pius XII repeated the same argument with slightly different tones in his 1943 encyclical Mystici Corporis.
see also the Papal bull Munificentissimus Deus on dogma of the assumption.
Pope John Paul II: his encyclical Redemptoris Mater
Pope Benedict XVI’s prayer to Our Lady of Sheshan.
I eagerly await your reply.
CCC 969. “…Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.” Lumen Gentium 62]
CCC 970 in its entirety again cites Lumen Gentium.
CCC 975 cites Paul VI’s Credo of the People of God.
Ephrem the Syrian prayed: After the mediator, the mediatrix of the whole world
Irenaeus referred to Mary as “causa salutis.” [cause of our salvation]
Father Frederick William Faber.
advisor to the Holy Office Father Gabriel Roschini explained that Mary did not only participate in birth of the physical Jesus, but, with conception, she entered with him into a spiritual union. The divine salvation plan, being not only material, includes a permanent spiritual unity with Christ.
Pope Leo XIII relied on Thomas Aquinas.
Pope Pius X issued his encyclical Ad Diem Illum which is an important document, because it explains his mariology.
Pope Benedict XV first described the term in his own right in his Apostolic Letter, Inter Soldalica, issued on March 22, 1918.
Pope Pius XII repeated the same argument with slightly different tones in his 1943 encyclical Mystici Corporis.
see also the Papal bull Munificentissimus Deus on dogma of the assumption.
Pope John Paul II: his encyclical Redemptoris Mater
Pope Benedict XVI’s prayer to Our Lady of Sheshan.
I eagerly await your reply.
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poetryforjesus
Guest
The Saints who write about Marian devotion all agree that it is impossible to have too much love for Mary.
In my personal experience, I tend to believe what the Saints say, but deep down there are doubts sometimes. I would wonder if I’m straying away from Jesus by thinking about Mary too much.
But as time goes by, I’ve found that the Saints are absolutely right. It is impossible to love Mary too much. For me there are too very solid reasons:
If someone somehow ends up loving Jesus less because of Marian devotion, I’ll have to say that he doesn’t really love Mary at all; he is probably doing something on his own that he thinks is Marian devotion but actually is not. He probably has little true devotion for Mary, only a passion for what he thinks is right.
Anyway, if a person perseveres in praying the Rosary, no matter how weak his theology may be, Mary will help him come to the right understanding at the right time. This I am absolutely sure. I will echo St. Louis De Montefort who says: **No one will be lost who prays the Rosary every day. **
In my personal experience, I tend to believe what the Saints say, but deep down there are doubts sometimes. I would wonder if I’m straying away from Jesus by thinking about Mary too much.
But as time goes by, I’ve found that the Saints are absolutely right. It is impossible to love Mary too much. For me there are too very solid reasons:
- Mary is the prototype of the perfect christian. No one can become perfect unless he looks to Mary who is his ideal and role model. Those who refuse to look to Mary perhaps lacks a desire to become truly perfect.
- Mary is a REAL person united to Christ in heaven. She hears us and sees us. Even if there is some inappropriate sentiment in us towards her, if our intention is good, she will correct us at the right time. That’s why all the Saints say that we must PERSEVERE in Marian devotion, which means, do not give up asking Mary for help, no matter how we feels or how things are going. Sooner or later Mary will help us grow into the right kind of relationship with her and with her Son.
If someone somehow ends up loving Jesus less because of Marian devotion, I’ll have to say that he doesn’t really love Mary at all; he is probably doing something on his own that he thinks is Marian devotion but actually is not. He probably has little true devotion for Mary, only a passion for what he thinks is right.
Anyway, if a person perseveres in praying the Rosary, no matter how weak his theology may be, Mary will help him come to the right understanding at the right time. This I am absolutely sure. I will echo St. Louis De Montefort who says: **No one will be lost who prays the Rosary every day. **
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Thing
Guest
I don’t know what the Jesus prayer is, but, there are traditional Rosaries made up of just the Our Father, the prayer Jesus taught the Apostles.… I remember when I was transitioning into praying the Rosary regularly, I’d get so uncomfortable I started replacing all of the Hail Marys with the Jesus prayer. I don’t do that any more, but why wouldn’t that be kosher, to go “straight to the source”?
There are Perpetual Adoration Chapels within most Catholic churches in the world where usually at least two people remain with the exposed host in 1 hour shifts, so-to-speak, praying or in meditation keeping Jesus company 24 hours a day 365 day a year.
The role in the Church of the Apostles, Martyrs, Saints including Mary, the Mother of God, is the role Jesus Himself gave to the Apostles, Go, therefore, teach all Nations… .
The Saints and Martyrs and Marys’ examples inspire and lead people to Christ. Indeed, without the examples of real people leading Christian lives who would follow Christianity. The greatest of the Saints would necessarily be the Mother God chose for Himself. So she gets the honour she deserves from these Christians.
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VociMike
Guest
Just to state the obvious,
Mediatrix
is not the same thing as
Mediatrix of All Graces
Mediatrix
is not the same thing as
Mediatrix of All Graces
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nuntym
Guest
True. No formal dogma has been proclaimed about Mary being the Mediatrix of All Graces, which is why I had said that no Catholic should be forced to believe in the said doctrine or, for that matter, the doctrine of Mary as Co-Redemptrix, which has also not been dogmatically defined.
However, it also goes the other way: no Catholic should be persuaded that it is wrong for him or her to believe in or talk about those said doctrines. These doctrines have been circulating and talked in Catholic theology for centuries, and indeed were espoused by saints, and no formal denunciation, as far as I know, against these doctrines have been proclaimed by the Catholic Church.
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Good_Fella
Guest
Catholics are required to give their religious assent of mind and will to the non-infallible teachings of the Ordinary Magisterium. All certain doctrines of the Church require our religious assent regardless of whether they have been formally defined and are dogmas in the strict sense.
In matters of faith and morals, the bishops speak in the name of Christ and the faithful are to accept their teaching and adhere to it with a religious assent. This religious assent of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will. His mind and will in the matter may be known either from the character of the documents, from his frequent repetition of the same doctrine, or from his manner of speaking.
Vatican ll Council, The Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Lumen Gentium 25
PAX :heaven:
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Good_Fella
Guest
Read the New Testament. Doesn’t the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector ring a bell? Of course, not all Pharisees were unfaithful servants.
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crazzeto
Guest
A genuine “Marian Devotions” (you’ll see why that is in quotes in a sec) can only “save you” in one way, and it’s the only way I believe that the Blessed Virgin would want it. It “saves you” by increasing your devotion to the Jesus Christ which will make you desire sin less and make you less likely to commit grave sin. You can see here why I put “Marian Devotion” in quotes, because while yes on the surface and most directly these devotions are Marian in nature, but principally these devotions like any other are actually devotions to Jesus Chirst.
You’re not being devoted to Mary instead of Christ, or to Mary diminishing your devotion to Christ. You’re devoting your self to Christ through Mary, and by devoting your self to Christ you save your self.
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diggerdomer
Guest
Sorry, thanks for responding, I think I see where the misunderstanding is. My point is that we are not reliant on the Nicene Creed for the belief of the Incarnation. The Nicene Creed simply affirmed what the Church believed. Does that clarify?
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diggerdomer
Guest
I have read the New Testament. One episode is not a basis for making a sweeping statement about what ALL Pharisees believed. As you note, not all Pharisees were unfaithful servants.
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Good_Fella
Guest
Never said '‘all’ Pharisees. Many Jews who converted to the Christian faith still believed that without circumcision there is no salvation. They were still adhering to the system of law and legality as opposed to the system of grace and divine mercy as they were conditioned to believe by their former religious elders.
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nickybr38
Guest
God created man from NOTHING. He could have easily created Jesus from nothing as well. Mary was NOT needed, she was chosen but not needed.
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diggerdomer
Guest
Not according to Catholic faith. Jesus is God. Jesus was not created from nothing.
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Hesychios
Guest
…
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jimmy
Guest
But, if He would have done that would Jesus have even been a man? Would He have been consubstantial with us? Would He be of the race of Adam? What you profess here is some form of anti-material Christological heresy. You are denying the full humanity of Jesus with this statement.
Humanity is that race of beings that descends from Adam. What you are assuming is that there is some ideal humanity in heaven that is seperated from the reality that is here on earth. But you have to ask yourself, is man called man because of Adam or is Adam called Adam because of man. In other words, is humanity intimitely connected with Adam as its father or does humanity precede Adam? (Adam means man in Hebrew)
Considering that the Incarnation is Gid nade man it is absolutely necessary that God take his humanity from a woman of the line of Adam. Otherwise He wouldn’t have been consubstantial with us.
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nickybr38
Guest
You’re bending my brain with this one because I always believed God could do anything… so why now is He limited?
He chose to be born of Adam’s descendents, absolutely… but it wasn’t something He had to do. If He is all powerful He could have made Himself man - absolutely and completely, remember that He created man originally? Correct? So why can He not create more men exactly as they were when He created Adam? He is not bound by human understanding. To suggest it was only through man that He could truly BE man seems completely nonsensical to me if He is indeed all powerful.
I am not trying to be disrespectful here, I’m just trying to understand why we’re putting limits on God. But admittedly I’m off topic here and I apologize. That statement just jumped out at me as completely contrary to what I know of God.
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