How does Marian devotion save?

[crazzeto]

You’re bending my brain with this one because I always believed God could do anything… so why now is He limited?

He chose to be born of Adam’s descendents, absolutely… but it wasn’t something He had to do. If He is all powerful He could have made Himself man - absolutely and completely, remember that He created man originally? Correct? So why can He not create more men exactly as they were when He created Adam? He is not bound by human understanding. To suggest it was only through man that He could truly BE man seems completely nonsensical to me if He is indeed all powerful.

I am not trying to be disrespectful here, I’m just trying to understand why we’re putting limits on God. But admittedly I’m off topic here and I apologize. That statement just jumped out at me as completely contrary to what I know of God.

Could he have created Jesus out of nothing? Sure, as you point out God created us out of nothing ultimatly. But would Jesus have been truely combsubstantial with us? Would he have been true man? Nope, he wouldn’t have been. Christ would have been something else, something different, something not truely us because he would share nothing with our true nature. Christ would be a speacial creation, and we would not be the adpoted sons and daughters of God.

 

[nickybr38]

Could he have created Jesus out of nothing? Sure, as you point out God created us out of nothing ultimatly. But would Jesus have been truely combsubstantial with us? Would he have been true man? Nope, he wouldn’t have been. Christ would have been something else, something different, something not truely us because he would share nothing with our true nature. Christ would be a speacial creation, and we would not be the adpoted sons and daughters of God.

Okay. I still argue that He could have created Himself as ‘true’ man. . I mean He created the beginning of what true man is… why couldn’t He do so again? BUT I conceed that I know very little about all of this so I’ll step back now. Thank you.

 

[crazzeto]

Okay. I still argue that He could have created Himself as ‘true’ man. . I mean He created the beginning of what true man is… why couldn’t He do so again? BUT I conceed that I know very little about all of this so I’ll step back now. Thank you.

It’s a real mind bender, but I would suggest to think of us not merely in terms of being a creation of matter but a creation of nature… Think of it this way, God created Angels (for the purposes of our discussion, lets strictly define angels as those beings of pure spirit from scripture) and created man. Using your argument, one might ask “why can’t God create an angel (being of pure spirit), that is a man (being of spirit and matter)”. Well the answer is he can’t, and he can’t because we are describing to beings with two completely different natures. A created being of spirit and matter is man, not angel, there for it can’t be both.

If God created Jesus “out of nothing”, then he wouldn’t be true man. Because it is our nature that we are now not created from nothing. Rather we are created from existing matter, the existing matter provided from father and mother. In the specieal case of Christ, the father sent the spirit to over shadow the mother (Mary) who provided the existing matter.

In this way, Christ is true man and true God.

Edit
I’d suggest reading Frank Sheed’s Theology for Beginners to help you out. You can get a free sample on google books, and you can buy the whole thing cheap on amazon.

 

[jimmy]

You’re bending my brain with this one because I always believed God could do anything… so why now is He limited?

He chose to be born of Adam’s descendents, absolutely… but it wasn’t something He had to do. If He is all powerful He could have made Himself man - absolutely and completely, remember that He created man originally? Correct? So why can He not create more men exactly as they were when He created Adam? He is not bound by human understanding. To suggest it was only through man that He could truly BE man seems completely nonsensical to me if He is indeed all powerful.

I am not trying to be disrespectful here, I’m just trying to understand why we’re putting limits on God. But admittedly I’m off topic here and I apologize. That statement just jumped out at me as completely contrary to what I know of God.

Similar to God being three persons and one essence, man is one essence and many persons. Man is specifically derived from Adam as the first of our race. It was not some genius or species that Adam belonged to as one member. The whole of humanity is embodied in him. It isn’t as if there is a heavenly idea of humanity and that is reflected in Adam. Adam is the original. No matter how similar some other being is to humanity, they are not human because they do not share in the communion of natures that we do.

I am not placing any restrictions on God. The only restrictions on God are the ones he has placed on Himself through actually willing something. God can’t contradict Himself. God created humanity as a unity, he will not contradict himself.

Could God have saved us in another way? Of course, but he didn’t. He chose to become like us in every way so that he could make us like Himself. He took what is ours and gave us what is his.

 

[Neil_McFhane]

But Jesus didn’t choose Mary. He wasn’t born yet.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

He was in the beginning with God.

All things came to be through him, and without him nothing came to be. What came to be

through him was life, and this life was the light of the human race;

the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

…And the Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us, and we saw his glory, the glory as of the Father’s only Son, full of grace and truth.

JESUS IS GOD, Always has been, Always will be. God is eternal.

 

[moondweller]

Hi. I’ve seen Many sites and prayerbooks say things like “Mary is the salvation of those who invoke her”, or “Pure and immaculate Queen, save me, and deliver me from eternal damnation,” and that wearing the scapular and praying the rosary daily will “save the world.” But what I want to know is, what is the mechanism behind these claims? By what means does devotion to Mary save people? Devotion to and belief in Jesus has obvious means of salvation, but Mary, it’s a little more murky. Anyone know?

Why is it “murky?” Scripture is extremely clear on this issue:Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."Also,1 Tim 2:5 "For there is one God, {and} one mediator also between God and men, {the} man Christ Jesus,"And as for intercession in heaven, Scripture still reveals only One:Rom 8:34 “…who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us” (cf. Heb. 7:25)Scripture never links salvation, mediation or intercession to Mary (or any deceased “saint,” for that matter). Nor does Scripture, the written Word of God, teach, or give by example, devotion to Mary. It’s nonexistent amongst the Apostles and their recorded teachings concerning the true faith. There’s really nothing “murky” at all about this issue if you appeal to the theopneustos Scriptures.

 

[Good_Fella]

Why is it “murky?” Scripture is extremely clear on this issue:Acts 4:12 “And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”

Agreed. The Catholic Church declares that there is no person other than Jesus Christ our Lord who can continually deliver us from our sins provided we approach him with a humble and contrite heart in a true spirit of repentance on the occasions of sin. Our justification isn’t a forensic one time event.

Also,1 Tim 2:5 “For there is one God, {and} one mediator also between God and men, {the} man Christ Jesus,”

Agreed. We Catholics believe that there is one mediator who has given himself as a ransom for all (v.6) by purchasing for us the remission of sin with his precious blood, our Lord Jesus Christ. However, if St. Paul had intended to mean that there is numerically one mediator, he would have used the Greek word monos for “one”. He uses the word heis instead to denote a sameness of function. The apostle affirms that there are other types of mediators (factual) who are able to intercede for others before God by their prayers, petitions, supplications, and thanksgiving (participation in the celebration of the Eucharist at Mass) (v.v. 1-4), now that Jesus has redeemed the world and made salvation possible for all men to an unlimited extent through the price of his precious blood. Mary serves as a type of factual mediator, not unlike Abel, Job, Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Paul (v.v 6-7).

And as for intercession in heaven, Scripture still reveals only One:Rom 8:34 “…who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us” (cf. Heb. 7:25)

Agreed. Our Lord Jesus Christ will come again to judge the living and the dead. For it is God who justifies and condemns. And we shall be judged according to our deeds - not purely our beliefs. Catholic theology does not assign the role of universal judge to Mary. We are justified by grace through faith by the merits of our Lord’s passion and death. Condemnation is alloted to those who have resisted God’s grace up to the final moment of their lives. Mary herself was justified through the merits of her divine Son, who is the principle of all merit and the only Source of grace. No human being can help save souls in this capacity. Christ alone makes intercession for us in strict justice by representing his passion and death to the Father. St. John envisioned the bleeding lamb of God standing before the throne in heaven and an altar. Our Lord re-presents his self-sacrifice on the Cross to the Father in an intercessory capacity during the celebration of the Eucharist. Mary does not make this form of satisfaction. But her prayers are joined with ours as we present our petitions to the Lord in the hope that we are saved.

Scripture never links salvation, mediation or intercession to Mary (or any deceased “saint,” for that matter). Nor does Scripture, the written Word of God, teach, or give by example, devotion to Mary. It’s nonexistent amongst the Apostles and their recorded teachings concerning the true faith. There’s really nothing “murky” at all about this issue if you appeal to the theopneustos Scriptures.

The apostles were Catholic.

1 Timothy 2:1-4; James 5:16; Romans 15:30; Revelation 8:4, etc.

PAX :heaven:

 

[moondweller]

However, if St. Paul had intended to mean that there is numerically one mediator, he would have used the Greek word monos for “one”. He uses the word heis instead to denote a sameness of function.

The Greek word “heis” denotes a number - the number one.Strong’s: heis: a primary numeral; one:

Thayer’s: 1) one
Part of Speech: numeralThe Greek is very clear. It means the numeral ONE. Paul knew exactly what he was communicating. Just as there is ONE God there is ONE mediator between God and men,*** the Man Christ Jesus***.1 Tim 2:5 “For there is one God, {and} one mediator also between God and men, {the} man Christ Jesus,”

The apostle affirms that there are other types of mediators (factual) who are able to intercede for others before God by their prayers, petitions, supplications, and thanksgiving

Paul teaches us that there is only ONE in heaven who intercedes for the saints here on earth, and that is the Man Christ Jesus, He being the true believer’s High Priest who now sits at the right hand of the Majesty on High after having made purification of sins through the sacrifice of Himself, while on earth (Rom. 8:24; Heb. 1:3; 7:25). The Scriptures know nothing of a High Priestess in heaven.

But her prayers are joined with ours as we present our petitions to the Lord in the hope that we are saved.

Proof? What is your Divine source?

 

[Good_Fella]

The Greek word “heis” denotes a number - the number one.Strong’s: heis: a primary numeral; one:

Thayer’s: 1) one
Part of Speech: numeralThe Greek is very clear. It means the numeral ONE. Paul knew exactly what he was communicating. Just as there is ONE God there is ONE mediator between God and men,*** the Man Christ Jesus***.1 Tim 2:5 “For there is one God, {and} one mediator also between God and men, {the} man Christ Jesus,”

Paul uses the word heis because his purpose is not to prove that there is numerically one God and numerically one mediator. His intention is to affirm that “there is one and the same God for all, and there is one and the same mediator for all,” according to exegete Manuel Miguens. Christ’s redeeming mediation is for both Jew and Gentile. If the apostle intended to emphasize, as you erroneously believe, that Jesus is the “only” mediator in the wider sense, he would have used the word monos which denotes an “exclusive uniqueness of function.” Jesus is the “one” mediator who makes propitiation for our sins to the Father in strict justice by the redemptive merits of his passion and death. But the word heis is to be taken in the sense of “sameness of function” with regard to mediation in general. Through baptism we participate in the principal mediation of Christ by our “prayers, petitions, and supplications” to God for the salvation of all souls (1 Tim 2:1-4). In fact, St. Paul perceives Aaron as a priestly mediator and Moses as a covenantal mediator in and through the primary mediation of Christ. He perceives Abraham as a factual mediator, who intercedes on behalf of the inhabitants of Sodom and Gemorrah. The Gospel of John (2:2) portrays Mary as a factual mediator: When the wine was gone, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.” Sola Christu is a heretical concept created by the 16th century Protestant Reformers. It is alien to both Scripture and Tradition of the Church. None of the Patristic Fathers taught this novel doctrine, but rather the contrary. We are not passive spectators in God’s plan of salvation. Indeed, St.Paul assures us that we are “God’s co-workers” (1 Cor 3:9). Strong’s Concordance is a biased Protestant work designed to strictly accommodate Protestant beliefs. Much pertinent information that supports Catholic theology is missing in it.

Paul teaches us that there is only ONE in heaven who intercedes for the saints here on earth, and that is the Man Christ Jesus, He being the true believer’s High Priest who now sits at the right hand of the Majesty on High after having made purification of sins through the sacrifice of Himself, while on earth (Rom. 8:24; Heb. 1:3; 7:25). The Scriptures know nothing of a High Priestess in heaven.

All baptized members of Christ’s mystical body commonly participate in His priestly office.

And, like living stones, let yourselves be built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
1 Peter 2:5

You made them a kingdom and priests for our God, and they will reign on the earth.
Revelation 5, 10

Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church.
Colossians 1, 24

But even if I am poured out as a libation upon the sacrificial service of your faith, I rejoice and share my joy with all of you. In the same way you also should rejoice and share your joy with me.
Philippians 2, 17-18

Christ is the head of his mystical body and we are its members. In unity the head works together with all of its members as in any organism. We are active members together with Christ, who works through us, in God’s plan of salvation. The principal redemptive mediation of Christ has made our participation as factual mediators possible.

Proof? What is your Divine source?

The deposit of Faith: Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

“True knowledge is that which consists in the doctrine of the Apostles, and the ancient constitution of the Church throughout all the world, and the distinctive manifestation of the body of Christ according to the succession of the bishops, by which they have handed down that Church which exists in every place, and has come even unto us, being guarded and preserved, without any forging of Scriptures, by a very complete system of doctrine, and neither addition nor suffering curtailment in the truth which she believes; and it consists in reading the Word of God without falsification, and a lawful and diligent exposition in harmony with the Scriptures, both without danger and without blasphemy.”
St. Irenaeus of Lyons, Against Heresies, 4, 33 (A.D. 180)

:harp:

 

[moondweller]

The Gospel of John (2:2) portrays Mary as a factual mediator: When the wine was gone, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.”

John 2 states nothing about Mary as a mediator. The passage is about Jesus Christ, not Mary.

Sola Christu is a heretical concept created by the 16th century Protestant Reformers. It is alien to both Scripture and Tradition of the Church. None of the Patristic Fathers taught this novel doctrine, but rather the contrary. We are not passive spectators in God’s plan of salvation. Indeed, St.Paul assures us that we are “God’s co-workers” (1 Cor 3:9).

The work of salvation was completed by Christ alone. The cross of Christ was the message taken to the world to be believed for salvation. In 1 Cor. 3:9 Paul states that “we” (the Apostles) are God’s “fellow-workers,” and we who have believed their message concerning Christ, salvation and eternal life are “God’s field, God’s building.” This passage has nothing to do with men or Mary as mediators.

Strong’s Concordance is a biased Protestant work designed to strictly accommodate Protestant beliefs. Much pertinent information that supports Catholic theology is missing in it.

Greek is Greek, my friend. Greek is Greek. Heis means numeral one. It’s just that simple.

All baptized members of Christ’s mystical body commonly participate in His priestly office.

Scripture reveals only ONE High Priestly office today, and it’s filled by the risen Christ. Scripture reveals no High Priestess in heaven, only the High Priestly office of Jesus Christ who entered the heavenly temple with His own blood.

And, like living stones, let yourselves be built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

Yes, the believers make up a spiritual “holy priesthood,” but notice the prayers are offered up “through Jesus Christ” (our heavenly High Priest), not through Mary or any other deceased “saint.” There is no example of anyone in Scripture praying to a deceased saint in heaven.

Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church.

This has to do with Paul’s suffering in his ministry of taking the “word of reconciliation” (2 Cor. 5:19) to Israel and especially the Gentiles (Acts 9:15-16). Paul, now deceased, is not interceding or mediating for anyone on earth. Scripture reveals only One who intercedes for us (on earth) in heaven - the Man Christ Jesus.

But even if I am poured out as a libation upon the sacrificial service of your faith, I rejoice and share my joy with all of you. In the same way you also should rejoice and share your joy with me.

Again, this speaks of his earthly ministry as an Apostle who took the “word of reconciliation” to the world and suffered and eventually died because of that glorious message.

Christ is the head of his mystical body and we are its members. In unity the head works together with all of its members as in any organism. We are active members together with Christ, who works through us, in God’s plan of salvation. The principal redemptive mediation of Christ has made our participation as factual mediators possible.

Christ Himself “finished” the work of Divine redemption, once for all, while here on earth through His sacrificial death. Ours is to testify of this “finished” work, to be believed by men for their salvation, their justification, their gift of eternal life.

The deposit of Faith: Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

But Scripture reveals only ONE in heaven who intercedes for us here on earth - the risen Christ - who now functions there as our High Priest, while sharing His heavenly Father’s throne. We on earth may pray for one another but we’re told in Scripture to address those prayers to God in the name of Christ (no other name). But as for a heavenly Intercessor (One who intercedes for us in heaven), Scripture reveals only ONE - the risen Christ.

 

[Tomster]

John 2 states nothing about Mary as a mediator. The passage is about Jesus Christ, not Mary.The work of salvation was completed by Christ alone. The cross of Christ was the message taken to the world to be believed for salvation. In 1 Cor. 3:9 Paul states that “we” (the Apostles) are God’s “fellow-workers,” and we who have believed their message concerning Christ, salvation and eternal life are “God’s field, God’s building.” This passage has nothing to do with men or Mary as mediators.Greek is Greek, my friend. Greek is Greek. Heis means numeral one. It’s just that simple.Scripture reveals only ONE High Priestly office today, and it’s filled by the risen Christ. Scripture reveals no High Priestess in heaven, only the High Priestly office of Jesus Christ who entered the heavenly temple with His own blood.Yes, the believers make up a spiritual “holy priesthood,” but notice the prayers are offered up “through Jesus Christ” (our heavenly High Priest), not through Mary or any other deceased “saint.” There is no example of anyone in Scripture praying to a deceased saint in heaven.This has to do with Paul’s suffering in his ministry of taking the “word of reconciliation” (2 Cor. 5:19) to Israel and especially the Gentiles (Acts 9:15-16). Paul, now deceased, is not interceding or mediating for anyone on earth. Scriptures reveals only One who intercedes for us (on earth) in heaven - the Man Christ Jesus.Again, this speaks of his earthly ministry as an Apostle who took the “word of reconciliation” to the world and suffered and eventually died because of that glorious message.Christ Himself “finished” the work of Divine redemption, once for all, while here on earth through His sacrificial death. Ours is to testify of this “finished” work, to be believed by men for their salvation, their justification, their gift of eternal life.But Scripture reveals only ONE in heaven who intercedes for us here on earth - the risen Christ - who now functions there as our High Priest, while sharing His heavenly Father’s throne. We on earth may pray for one another but we’re told in Scripture to address those prayers to God in the name of Christ (no other name). But as for a heavenly Intercessor (One who intercedes for us in heaven), Scripture reveals only ONE - the risen Christ.

As has been stated to you on many occassions your Incarnational theolgy is extremely limited.

 

[moondweller]

As has been stated to you on many occassions your Incarnational theolgy is extremely limited.

Personally, I don’t find building one’s theology on the theopneustos Scriptures limiting.1 Cor 4:6 “Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, so that in us you may learn not to exceed what is written, so that no one of you will become arrogant in behalf of one against the other.”

 

[Des]

He chose to be born of Adam’s descendents, absolutely… but it wasn’t something He had to do. If He is all powerful He could have made Himself man - absolutely and completely, remember that He created man originally? Correct? So why can He not create more men exactly as they were when He created Adam? He is not bound by human understanding. To suggest it was only through man that He could truly BE man seems completely nonsensical to me if He is indeed all powerful.

nickybr38, nobody is putting limits to God’s power. We can only acknowledged what was needed for this particular Divine plan He created to bring mankind back into His Graces.

Hi. I’ve seen Many sites and prayerbooks say things like “Mary is the salvation of those who invoke her”, or “Pure and immaculate Queen, save me, and deliver me from eternal damnation,” and that wearing the scapular and praying the rosary daily will “save the world.” But what I want to know is, what is the mechanism behind these claims? By what means does devotion to Mary save people? Devotion to and belief in Jesus has obvious means of salvation, but Mary, it’s a little more murky. Anyone know?

The Church since the early on, have understood this to be more profound through the years with Mary, ever since She was handed over as our Spiritual Mother from the Cross. We can even see How close Her Heart was united with Her Son’s at Cana because even when Jesus told Her His hour has not yet come, without hesitation She told them to “Do whatever he tells you.” She knew and completely trusted without an ounce of doubt, that Her Son and Savior would grant this request of Hers.

So when I say a prayer with words asking our Blessed Mother to “save me”, I’ve connected myself to Christ through Her heart because of that intimate Mother/Son relationship He willed into existence.

 

[nuntym]

Personally, I don’t find building one’s theology on the theopneustos Scriptures limiting.1 Cor 4:6 “Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, so that in us you may learn not to exceed what is written, so that no one of you will become arrogant in behalf of one against the other.”

Written by whom, moondweller?

 

[moondweller]

Written by whom, moondweller?

Selected Jews, through the Holy Spirit. Only Scripture is called theopneustos (God-breathed).

 

[nuntym]

+AJPM+

Selected Jews, through the Holy Spirit. Only Scripture is called theopneustos (God-breathed).

Ah, you mean to include Christians, even Gentiles? For all Christians are made Jews through the grace of God.

Then those who are physically uncircumcised but keep the law will condemn you who have the written code and circumcision but break the law. For he is not a real Jew who is one outwardly, nor is true circumcision something external and physical. He is a Jew who is one inwardly, and real circumcision is a matter of the heart, spiritual and not literal.

Romans 2:27-29

So who are these “selected Jews”?

 

[Tomster]

Written by whom, moondweller?

Why, of course! I just hope md doesn’t try and pass off his interpretations as infallible.

 

[moondweller]

+AJPM+

Ah, you mean to include Christians, even Gentiles? For all Christians are made Jews through the grace of God.

Then those who are physically uncircumcised but keep the law will condemn you who have the written code and circumcision but break the law. For he is not a real Jew who is one outwardly, nor is true circumcision something external and physical. He is a Jew who is one inwardly, and real circumcision is a matter of the heart, spiritual and not literal.

Romans 2:27-29

So who are these “selected Jews”?

That passage is written to Jews. Please look at 2:17 for the CONTEXT:Rom 2:17 "But if you bear the name “Jew” and rely upon the Law and boast in God,"Paul is not saying that Gentiles become Jews. He is saying to the Jew that a Jew is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, not by the letter (according to the Law). A true Jew, or, a completed Jew, is one who is born again, spiritually regenerated by the Holy Spirit, not merely circumcised in the flesh. Nowhere in that passage is Paul stating that Gentiles become Jews.

But what does this have to do with Christians devoting themselves to Mary for salvation?

 

[moondweller]

So who are these “selected Jews”?

Well, let’s looks in the Bible. In the O.T. we’ve got men like Moses, David, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Ezekiel, Hosea, Joel, Amos Obadiah, Habakkuk, etc.: while in the N.T. we’ve got Matthew, Mark, Luke (there is no evidence that Luke was a Gentile), John, Paul, Peter, James.

Corporately the church wrote no Scripture, anymore than nationally Israel wrote Scripture. The Holy Spirit selected certain, individual, Jews to author His Holy Writ.

 

[panevino]

… But as for a heavenly Intercessor (One who intercedes for us in heaven), Scripture reveals only ONE - the risen Christ.

its my understanding (and I know you have discussed this probably a million times) that the catholic church teachings do not contradict the sole mediatorship of Jesus.

the only reason our intercessions on earth are effective is soley due to what jesus did for us. the same is true for the intercession of a soul in heaven who is part of the body of christ.

The following illustrate those in heaven interceeding in some form

Rev6:9- And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

these saints are talking to Jesus Rev6:1 they are aware of events on earth and query and seek judgement.

*luke 16:27 KJV - Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house: 28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

• Richman to Abraham (both dead)

then of course there is the angels who interceed for us.

*Tobit 12:12
So now when you and Sarah prayed, it was I who brought and read the record of your prayer before the glory of the Lord, … 15 I am Raphael, one of the seven angels who stand ready and enter before the glory of the Lord." 16 The two of them were shaken; they fell face down, for they were afraid. 17 But he said to them, "Do not be afraid; peace be with you. Bless God forevermore. 18 As for me, when I was with you, I was not acting on my own will, but by the will of God. *

Mat18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.