How does Marian devotion save?

[moondweller]

its my understanding (and I know you have discussed this probably a million times) that the catholic church teachings do not contradict the sole mediatorship of Jesus.

the only reason our intercessions on earth are effective is soley due to what jesus did for us.

The only reason our intercession for each other in prayer on earth is effective is because Jesus has risen from the dead, is glorified, ascended into heaven and now sits at the right hand of God functioning there as our High Priest who ever lives to make intercession for us (Heb. 1:3; 7:25).

the same is true for the intercession of a soul in heaven who is part of the body of christ.

It is not the same of a mere human soul now in heaven, whether he be part of the body of Christ or not. For Scripture reveals only ONE High Priest who intercedes for us in heaven - the Man Christ Jesus (1 Tim. 2:5). And what we ask of the Father here on earth is to be asked in His name (Jn. 14:13-14). Even the Holy Spirit was sent to us in His name (Jn. 14:26).

The following illustrate those in heaven interceeding in some form

Rev6:9- And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

these saints are talking to Jesus Rev6:1 they are aware of events on earth and query and seek judgement.

They’re aware of the events taking place on earth because they came out of those same events via martyrdom. They have personal knowledge. It’s the time of the great Tribulation. They’re not hearing the prayers of the saints still on earth and interceding for them, but are in the presence of Christ Himself and are asking Him how long will He refrain from avenging their blood and bring judgment on those who dwell on the earth (who took their blood). Their answer is given in verse eleven.

*luke 16:27 KJV - Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house: 28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

• Richman to Abraham (both dead)

This is a parable, not a doctrinal statement. The dead rich man is not in heaven hearing the prayers of his brothers on earth and interceding for them. He’s in Hades awaiting his final judgment. The conversation is strictly between him and Abraham, and even then his request is not granted, but his brothers still on earth were themselves to heed the words of Moses and the prophets (the Scriptures). This conversation is O.T. This side of the cross the true believer on earth now has an ascended High Priest who ever lives to make intercession for him in heaven.

then of course there is the angels who interceed for us.

Tobit 12:12
So now when you and Sarah prayed, it was I who brought and read the record of your prayer before the glory of the Lord, … 15 I am Raphael, one of the seven angels who stand ready and enter before the glory of the Lord." 16 The two of them were shaken; they fell face down, for they were afraid. 17 But he said to them, "Do not be afraid; peace be with you. Bless God forevermore. 18 As for me, when I was with you, I was not acting on my own will, but by the will of God.

Well, first of all, I don’t consider Tobit to be an inspired book (theopneustos), nor did the Jews. That there is an angel named Raphael and six others who stand ready before the glory of the Lord is spurious. In the Book of Daniel (a true inspired Book) we read where an angel is sent to Daniel from the Lord with the answer to his prayers. But it is not revealed that angels themselves have the capacity to hear and receive the prayers of saints on earth and intercede for them.

Mat18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

But this doesn’t say they hear their prayers or teach that children should address prayers to angels. It does confirm the fact that angels are “ministering spirits” (Heb. 1:14), but not that they have the power to hear prayers in heaven and intercede for men.

 

[Thing]

How do the 12 Apostles save us?

• Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

 

[Good_Fella]

John 2 states nothing about Mary as a mediator… The work of salvation was completed by Christ alone

Jesus performed his first miracle by his mother’s solicitation. In heaven Mary continues to solicit her Son for the signal graces we need in order to be saved. She is not the mediator who intercedes between the Father and the human race. But by her petitions, Mary exercises a mediatory role of soteriological value. Jesus said, “All that belongs to the Father is mine.” For us Jesus is the Source of all grace which originates from the Father, and our Blessed Mother obtains for us the application of this grace by participating in our Lord’s priestly office in an intercessory capacity. Our Lady’s active participation at the wedding feast at Cana served to obtain for us the greatest application of God’s grace, that is the offer of the salvation of our souls by the merits of our Lord’s precious blood, which is symbolized by the wine that was earnestly needed by the guests. Mary’ role as a type of Davidic Queen Mother (Gebirah) and advocate to God’s people is allegorically presented in this gospel narrative. Mary intercedes on our behalf on her heavenly throne which is placed next to her Son’s. That Jesus did not perform his first and most important miracle without his mother’s request is not something purely incidental but rather very significant in the divine order of redemption. John could have avoided narrating Mary’s involvement, but he did not refrain because it is not incidental. Nothing is in Scripture.

In 1 Cor. 3:9 Paul states that “we” (the Apostles) are God’s “fellow-workers,” and we who have believed their message concerning Christ, salvation and eternal life are “God’s field, God’s building.” This passage has nothing to do with men or Mary as mediators.

You haven’t explained how we are God’s fellow workers. In fact, you haven’t explained anything. St.Paul is affirming that human mediation plays a vital role in God’s plan of salvation and that all baptized Christians participate in Christ’s redemptive mediation and his work of salvation by their sacrifices, prayers, petitions, and supplications. The redemptive sacrifice was completed by Christ on the cross, but our Lord’s salvific work and redemptive sacrifice is applied to us in some form and measure. For instance, the prayers or suffering of any person offered up to God in supplication has the influence to please God in bestowing his grace of conversion on a sinner. Our sufferings and intercessory prayers are incorporated by our Lord in God’s plan of salvation, and this is possible because Christ intercedes for us before the Father in his humanity, not his divinity. Our participation in the redemptive mediation of Christ, even as evangelists who try to save souls, does not infringe upon his divinity in any way.

The first Christians in Palestine perceived Mary’s contribution in our Lord’s work of salvation as a satisfaction to God for our sins by her suffering as she stood at the foot of the cross in agony because of her love for her Son. Her willingness to suffer for our sake by becoming the mother of our Lord helped bring Christ’s work of salvation to completion. It pleased God even more to save the world, in spite of our sins, because of the redeeming quality of a mother’s love that appealed to God’s mercy and compassion. Simeon added in his prophecy regarding the suffering Servant: “And a sword shall pierce your own soul, so that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed” (Lk 2:35). Christ chose to be made of a woman because he did not desire to save the world without our collaboration. Without our willingness to suffer together with Christ and for the sake of the kingdom universal salvation is impossible, for our Lord does not wish to save the world without our fellowship with him in the divine plan. Nor will he save us save for the redeeming qualities of our exercised infused virtues by the grace of God. We merit our eternal reward by the Divine Mercy.

Heis means numeral one. It’s just that simple.

But heis does not mean “only”. St. Paul laid the foundation for the theology of human mediation, so he knew what word he should use in his letter to Timothy to remain consistent. He intentionally avoided using the word monos, which, by the way, he uses on all other occasions in his letters except this one. Jesus is the one and the same mediator for all as a ransom for our sins paid by his blood: a peculiar form of mediation that belongs only to Christ and merits for us our participation and collaboration as God’s fellow workers. And since the apostle is not arguing that there is only one God, but emphasizing that there is one and the same God for both Jew and Gentile, he is at liberty to use heis instead of monos which stresses exclusivity.

According to your theology, Jesus must be the “only” foundation and judge. But Sacred Scripture reveals otherwise. There is no contradiction if we see the contexts of the following passages: 1 Cor 3:11 - Ephs 2:19-20; Jas 4:12 - 1 Cor 6:2. The point is that our Lord’s prerogative to judge the world and serve as a foundation can be applied to those who participate in fellowship with him as co-workers. Thus we too can intercede and mediate in and through Christ in some form and measure. We are not entirely passive in the divine work of salvation but active participants by the will of our Lord.

To be continued.

:tiphat:

 

[panevino]

The only reason our intercession for each other in prayer on earth is effective is because Jesus has risen from the dead, is glorified, ascended into heaven and now sits at the right hand of God functioning there as our High Priest who ever lives to make intercession for us (Heb. 1:3; 7:25).

I agree with u here.

It is not the same of a mere human soul now in heaven, whether he be part of the body of Christ or not. For Scripture reveals only ONE High Priest who intercedes for us in heaven - the Man Christ Jesus (1 Tim. 2:5). And what we ask of the Father here on earth is to be asked in His name (Jn. 14:13-14). Even the Holy Spirit was sent to us in His name (Jn. 14:26).

essentially agree again, I expect those souls in heaven to be praying for us in jesus, not somehow bypassing him. Just as the martyrs do in rev 6:8

They’re aware of the events taking place on earth because they came out of those same events via martyrdom. They have personal knowledge. It’s the time of the great Tribulation. They’re not hearing the prayers of the saints still on earth and interceding for them, but are in the presence of Christ Himself and are asking Him how long will He refrain from avenging their blood and bring judgment on those who dwell on the earth (who took their blood). Their answer is given in verse eleven.

they Are aware that it has been a long time and the ones on earth are still alive, they are aware that they have not yet been judged. And they query/seek it which is clearly a form of heavenly intercession. Ie while not identical to what we r talking about it is a heavenly soul interacting with Jesus about someone on earth .

This is a parable, not a doctrinal statement. The dead rich man is not in heaven hearing the prayers of his brothers on earth and interceding for them.

agree he is not hearing his brothers but he is dead and aware they are alive and he most certainly is trying to interceed for them, Though unsuccesfully

He’s in Hades awaiting his final judgment. The conversation is strictly between him and Abraham, and even then his request is not granted, but his brothers still on earth were themselves to heed the words of Moses and the prophets (the Scriptures).

agree, note how they can hear eachother

This conversation is O.T. This side of the cross the true believer on earth now has an ascended High Priest who ever lives to make intercession for him in heaven.

and the souls in heaven can ask him for this intercession more directly and perfectly…

Well, first of all, I don’t consider Tobit to be an inspired book (theopneustos), nor did the Jews.That there is an angel named Raphael and six others who stand ready before the glory of the Lord is spurious.

are u sure all the Jews at the time of Jesus considered Tobit uninspired. also this verse of Tobit aligns I think with rev 8:3 ie angels presenting prayers to the altar

In the Book of Daniel (a true inspired Book)

what about the extra parts of Daniel quoted by Irenaeus

we read where an angel is sent to Daniel from the Lord with the answer to his prayers. But it is not revealed that angels themselves have the capacity to hear and receive the prayers of saints on earth and intercede for them.

But this doesn’t say they hear their prayers or teach that children should address prayers to angels. It does confirm the fact that angels are “ministering spirits” (Heb. 1:14), but not that they have the power to hear prayers in heaven and intercede for men.

sorry agree about the hearing part, though I think it is implicit, the angelic Intercession part is the root threat of the verse against those who would do harm to children.

 

[moondweller]

Jesus performed his first miracle by his mother’s solicitation. In heaven Mary continues to solicit her Son for the signal graces we need in order to be saved

So then you’re literally stating that without Mary no one can be saved. Can you show me where these so-called “signal graces” for salvation are taught in the Scriptures?

She is not the mediator who intercedes between the Father and the human race. But by her petitions, Mary exercises a mediatory role of soteriological value… Mary’ role as a type of Davidic Queen Mother (Gebirah) and advocate to God’s people is allegorically presented in this gospel narrative.

Can you show me the Divine support behind this statement? Which Apostle taught it? Or can you show me a quote from any ECF who quoted an Apostle who taught such things about Mary? It is interesting that at the Annunciation the angel Gabriel told Mary that the Son she was about to conceive would be given by the Lord the throne of His father David, but failed to tell her that she too would receive a throne (Lk. 1:32-33). And another angel appeared to Joseph in a dream stating that the Son Mary would bear would save His people from their sins, yet he failed to tell Mary that their salvation would also be accomplished through her (Matt. 1:20-21).

Our Lady’s active participation at the wedding feast at Cana served to obtain for us the greatest application of God’s grace, that is the offer of the salvation of our souls by the merits of our Lord’s precious blood, which is symbolized by the wine that was earnestly needed by the guests

I see nothing even remotely connecting Mary to God’s grace and salvation in that narrative. Not even John in his Epistles draws on that scene to make such an eisegetical interpretation. In fact, Mary is not even mentioned once by name in his Epistles or any of the others. And it’s in the Epistles that we’re given the doctrines pertaining to man’s salvation “by grace through faith” (Eph. 2:8). In fact, after the wedding at Cana we hear nothing from Mary. The wedding marks the beginning of Christ’s earthly ministry as Israel’s Messiah and rightly it must be with Mary as it was with John the Baptist (in his own words):"John 3:30 “He must increase, but I must decrease.” Her job was to raise that child to adulthood. Her job was done.

Mary’ role as a type of Davidic Queen Mother (Gebirah) and advocate to God’s people is allegorically presented in this gospel narrative. Mary intercedes on our behalf on her heavenly throne which is placed next to her Son’s.

David didn’t set his mother on a throne. That didn’t happen until Solomon, and then he had no Divine instruction to do it. Solomon also erected many temples on high places for his pagan wives.

That Jesus did not perform his first and most important miracle without his mother’s request is not something purely incidental but rather very significant in the divine order of redemption.

Turning water into wine really has nothing to do with “the order of divine redemption.” Those are empty words. Divine redemption has to do only with sacrificial blood - the precious blood of Christ (1 Pet. 1:18-19).

You haven’t explained how we are God’s fellow workers.

I told you what that passage (1 Cor. 3:9) actually says. That the Apostles are God’s “fellow workers” and we who believe their message concerning salvation, justification and eternal life are “God’s field, God’s building.” Read it for yourself.

The first Christians in Palestine perceived Mary’s contribution in our Lord’s work of salvation as a satisfaction to God for our sins by her suffering as she stood at the foot of the cross in agony because of her love for her Son.

I don’t know from where you get this, but it’s blasphemous and heretical. That’s why you’ll never find such teaching in the Scriptures. What’s taught in Scripture is that Jesus’ sacrificial death alone is the “propitiation” (complete satisfaction) for our sins.

Her willingness to suffer for our sake by becoming the mother of our Lord helped bring Christ’s work of salvation to completion.

The work of salvation was Christ’s and Christ’s alone. It began on the cross and He “finished” it there on the cross.

It pleased God even more to save the world, in spite of our sins, because of the redeeming quality of a mother’s love that appealed to God’s mercy and compassion.

This is nothing short of heresy. Another “gospel,” indeed. Rightly called “Maryolotry.” Can you show me where this is taught in the CCC? I want to make note of it.

But heis does not mean “only”.

It means “ONE.” ONE God and ONE mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. Are you going to tell me next that “one God” doesn’t mean that God is the “only” God? Read Is. 45:5-6, 18, 21-22.

We are not entirely passive in the divine work of salvation but active participants by the will of our Lord.

No we’re not. It’s God who saves upon faith in Christ, men do not save themselves:Titus 3:5 "He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,"According to the Scriptures, men are saved “by grace through faith.” That’s faith in another Man’s work - the Man Christ Jesus. That’s a passive faith. The work was DONE by Another - according to the Scriptures. It’s the “***saved *by grace through faith” (Eph. 2:8-9) that are “created in Christ Jesus for good works…” (Eph. 2:10). It’s the saved who work, they don’t work to be saved.

 

[diggerdomer]

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

He was in the beginning with God.

All things came to be through him, and without him nothing came to be. What came to be

through him was life, and this life was the light of the human race;

the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

…And the Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us, and we saw his glory, the glory as of the Father’s only Son, full of grace and truth.

JESUS IS GOD, Always has been, Always will be. God is eternal.

Yes. So, what’s your point?

 

[diggerdomer]

Well, let’s looks in the Bible. In the O.T. we’ve got men like Moses, David, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Ezekiel, Hosea, Joel, Amos Obadiah, Habakkuk, etc.: while in the N.T. we’ve got Matthew, Mark, Luke (there is no evidence that Luke was a Gentile), John, Paul, Peter, James.

Corporately the church wrote no Scripture, anymore than nationally Israel wrote Scripture. The Holy Spirit selected certain, individual, Jews to author His Holy Writ.

There’s no evidence that Luke was a Jew either, so what’s your point about noting he wasn’t a Gentile?

 

[crazzeto]

There’s no evidence that Luke was a Jew either, so what’s your point about noting he wasn’t a Gentile?

He’s probably grasping at any way to prove the Church wrong about any particular point. Problem is, he’s incorrect. St. Luke was aboslutly a gentile.

 

[moondweller]

There’s no evidence that Luke was a Jew either, so what’s your point about noting he wasn’t a Gentile?

The question asked by “nuntym.”

 

[poetryforjesus]

According to the Scriptures, men are saved “by grace through faith.” That’s faith in another Man’s work - the Man Christ Jesus. **That’s a passive faith. ** The work was DONE by Another - according to the Scriptures. It’s the “***saved ***by grace through faith” (Eph. 2:8-9) that are “created in Christ Jesus for good works…” (Eph. 2:10). It’s the saved who work, they don’t work to be saved.

There is no such thing as a passive faith. You are putting your own words into scripture. Nowhere in scripture can you find a support or even an affirmative mention of a PASSIVE FAITH.

A passive faith is an oxymoron. Faith must be live and active. Faith must respond; otherwise it will be a statement without any meaning. Even demons have this kind of passive faith.

 

[moondweller]

There is no such thing as a passive faith. You are putting your own words into scripture. Nowhere in scripture can you find a support or even an affirmative mention of a PASSIVE FAITH.

“Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved…” (Acts 16:31). True salvation faith trusts exclusively in the “finished” work of Another, the Lord Jesus Christ.

A passive faith is an oxymoron.

Not FOR salvation. As I said, “It’s the saved who work, they don’t work to be saved.”

Faith must be live and active.

The faith of the saved is alive and active. The SAVED walk by faith (2 Cor. 5:7). They, the SAVED, live by faith (Gal. 2:20).

Faith must respond; otherwise it will be a statement without any meaning. Even demons have this kind of passive faith.

Christ died for men, not demons. Demons cannot believe in Christ for salvation. They cannot, by faith, respond to the gospel message. That message has gone out to men, not demons. Men are saved by believing in the Person and, once for all, sacrificial work of Jesus Christ on their behalf - according to the Scriptures.

 

[panevino]

posted by panevino…
Tobit 12:12
So now when you and Sarah prayed, it was I who brought and read the record of your prayer before the glory of the Lord, … 15 I am Raphael, one of the seven angels who stand ready and enter before the glory of the Lord." 16 The two of them were shaken; they fell face down, for they were afraid. 17 But he said to them, "Do not be afraid; peace be with you. Bless God forevermore. 18 As for me, when I was with you, I was not acting on my own will, but by the will of God. …

…Well, first of all, I don’t consider Tobit to be an inspired book (theopneustos), nor did the Jews. That there is an angel named Raphael and six others who stand ready before the glory of the Lord is spurious…

i note the following in Rev 8:1
1And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. 2And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets. 3And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

 

[moondweller]

i note the following in Rev 8:1
1And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. 2And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets. 3And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

It doesn’t say those prayers were addressed to them.

Nowhere in Scripture is it ever taught or given by example that we who make up the church on earth are to pray to angels. Believers are clearly told to address their prayers to the Father in the name of the Son. And of the Holy Spirit who indwells every true believer during this church age, it says:Rom 8:26 "In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for {us} with groanings too deep for words;"It’s the Trinity that’s involved since only God is able to hear and answer prayers according to our true needs; since only God is omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent. No mere creature on earth or in heaven has the power; neither angels, Mary or any deceased saint.

 

[diggerdomer]

It doesn’t say those prayers were addressed to them.

Nowhere in Scripture is it ever taught or given by example that we who make up the church on earth are to pray to angels. Believers are clearly told to address their prayers to the Father in the name of the Son. And of the Holy Spirit who indwells every true believer during this church age, it says:Rom 8:26 "In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for {us} with groanings too deep for words;"It’s the Trinity that’s involved since only God is able to hear and answer prayers according to our true needs; since only God is omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent. No mere creature on earth or in heaven has the power; neither angels, Mary or any deceased saint.

But also, nowhere in the Bible is the tradition of praying to saints prohibited.

 

[moondweller]

But also, nowhere in the Bible is the tradition of praying to saints prohibited.

1 Cor 6:12 “All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable.”

1 Cor 10:23 "All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable."Based on the logic you present, it’s not prohibited in the Bible to pray to rocks or mules, either. But is it profitable?

 

[Thing]

1 Cor 6:12 “All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable.”

1 Cor 10:23 "All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable."Based on the logic you present, it’s not prohibited in the Bible to pray to rocks or mules, either. But is it profitable?

In old testament times people who died did not go to heaven, they remained in a place called Abrahams comfort.
In new testament times the bible did not exist when Jesus was a man and nobody went to heaven before He died and opened heaven. There, is one reason at least, why you will not find Jesus saying “pray to the saints in heaven.” There were none before He died.
The various books and letters of the bible were writen largely well within the lifetimes of all the Apostles so again not many would have died while the bible was being written.
However, those who do die as faithful Christians, live. They live in Christ in heaven. They walk and talk and see and hear through Christ in heaven. If you asked a saint in heaven they will hear through Christ; ‘whatever you ask in my name will be done for you’, many ask for the saints in heaven to pray for them who are still on earth.

 

[diggerdomer]

1 Cor 6:12 “All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable.”

1 Cor 10:23 "All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable."Based on the logic you present, it’s not prohibited in the Bible to pray to rocks or mules, either. But is it profitable?

What a great, and negative, example of “proof-texting.”

You are taking two passages from 1 Cor, out of context, to support a claim you make that has NOTHING to do with the context and circumstances that Paul addressed in 1 Cor. Where in 1 Cor does Paul address praying to saints? Or to Mary? Isn’t THAT the topic of this thread?

Try again?

 

[panevino]

Moondweller,
just a note ,my last post was more meant to focus on your comment that the 7 angels before the lord in Tobit 12:12 was “spurios”.
Ie I showed the Rev 8:1-3 verse of the 7 angels before the lord.

 

[moondweller]

In old testament times people who died did not go to heaven, they remained in a place called Abrahams comfort.

Yes, but they were still conscious as demonstrated by the rich man and Lazarus.

In new testament times the bible did not exist when Jesus was a man and nobody went to heaven before He died and opened heaven. There, is one reason at least, why you will not find Jesus saying “pray to the saints in heaven.” There were none before He died.

Granted, but why would a creature’s presence in heaven suddenly give him (or her) Divine attributes. That is, those attributes one would need in order to hear the prayers (even inner thoughts) of saints on earth? For that matter, then, how do you know the O.T. saints in “Abraham’s bosom” didn’t suddenly possess those Divine attributes? Maybe somebody just forgot to tell them.

The various books and letters of the bible were writen largely well within the lifetimes of all the Apostles so again not many would have died while the bible was being written.

Yet still within the pages of the Bible that was being written, NONE of them instruct true believers to pray to deceased saints in heaven. Not even Paul, who knew his time was short (as did Peter), instructed men to pray to him after his death? Nor did Peter.

However, those who do die as faithful Christians, live. They live in Christ in heaven.

Actually, all who believe in Christ and die - live (see Jn. 11:25).

They walk and talk and see and hear through Christ in heaven.

I would assume they walk and talk and see each other through their own person.

If you asked a saint in heaven they will hear through Christ; ‘whatever you ask in my name will be done for you’,

Jesus actually said:John 14:13-14 “Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. **If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do {it.}”**There’s your instruction regarding prayer, and to Whom to pray, and in Whose name.

many ask for the saints in heaven to pray for them who are still on earth.

I know, but based on the Divine instruction given to us regarding prayer, is it “profitable?”

 

[moondweller]

What a great, and negative, example of “proof-texting.”

You are taking two passages from 1 Cor, out of context, to support a claim you make that has NOTHING to do with the context and circumstances that Paul addressed in 1 Cor. Where in 1 Cor does Paul address praying to saints? Or to Mary? Isn’t THAT the topic of this thread?

The question is, where in ANY of Paul’s letters does he address praying to deceased saints or to Mary?

Paul’s principle still stands, “All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable.”