How does Marian devotion save?

[rwillenborg]

Wow…wait a minute…you’re saying that if Mary said “no” then Jesus would not have become incarnate, suffered, died, rose, and ascended to glory? Mary…a human…had the ability to thwart God’s plan?

Say more, please!

Though I did not write this response, I am going to add a few words. I do not pretend to speak for the original author of this post, but I had a friend explain this to me, and I found it helpful.

If Mary had said no, would Jesus not have become incarnate? The fact is we don’t KNOW what would have happened if Mary had said no because she didn’t. We simply don’t know the answer. Had my parents not chosen to open their hearts to the possibility of another child, at the moment that they did, would I be here? I simply don’t know.

So, when people say, “no Mary, no Jesus” there is truth to that. Likewise, one could say ‘No Jews, No Jesus’, since that was the people from whom he came. It might even be the case that ‘No Joseph, No Jesus’, since he certainly was a protector of Mary and the infant Jesus. So, the fact is, that Jesus, particularly as the person and in the time and place we understand Him to be, was most certainly as a result of Mary’s ‘yes’.

And to your last question that a human has the ability to thrwart God’s plan. Of course! After all, it is God’s desire that all men be saved, but we stand in the way of THAT plan all the time. His plan was that we should all live in Eden with Him. Adam and Eve thwarted that plan, too. We’re always getting in the way of His plans for us, so indeed, since we all have free will, we all have the ability to thrwart God’s plans for us.

I hoep this was helpful.

 

[prodigalson12]

Though I did not write this response, I am going to add a few words. I do not pretend to speak for the original author of this post, but I had a friend explain this to me, and I found it helpful.

If Mary had said no, would Jesus not have become incarnate? The fact is we don’t KNOW what would have happened if Mary had said no because she didn’t. We simply don’t know the answer. Had my parents not chosen to open their hearts to the possibility of another child, at the moment that they did, would I be here? I simply don’t know.

So, when people say, “no Mary, no Jesus” there is truth to that. Likewise, one could say ‘No Jews, No Jesus’, since that was the people from whom he came. It might even be the case that ‘No Joseph, No Jesus’, since he certainly was a protector of Mary and the infant Jesus. So, the fact is, that Jesus, particularly as the person and in the time and place we understand Him to be, was most certainly as a result of Mary’s ‘yes’.

And to your last question that a human has the ability to thrwart God’s plan. Of course! After all, it is God’s desire that all men be saved, but we stand in the way of THAT plan all the time. His plan was that we should all live in Eden with Him. Adam and Eve thwarted that plan, too. We’re always getting in the way of His plans for us, so indeed, since we all have free will, we all have the ability to thrwart God’s plans for us.

I hoep this was helpful.

I was on the phone, pulling a Mormons head out of the sand on this one, that free will element is too often overlooked, thank you so much for pointing this out to the person questioning it, and I needed this reminder myself as well, even though I just conveyed it to that other person as well.

 

[Good_Fella]

Wow…wait a minute…you’re saying that if Mary said “no” then Jesus would not have become incarnate, suffered, died, rose, and ascended to glory? Mary…a human…had the ability to thwart God’s plan?

Say more, please!

If I may, look at it this way: It has been God’s plan to become incarnate by the fiat of a woman. There was no coercion on God’s part at the Annunciation. Nor does God necessarily have to save us out of obligation. The Pharisees whom Jesus and Paul condemned believed that they could justify themselves by their works alone and so make God indebted to them. If Mary had said Lo, then Eve’s transgression and the subsequent fall of Adam (mankind) would not have been reversed, according to God’s plan. God wills to permit our aversion to his will, since God will not save us in his mercy if we freely choose to reject and disobey him individually out of cold indifference. Eve and Mary, the new Eve, are representatives of us as a race in the divine order of redemption. Mary’s “Yes” to God undid the consequences of Eve’s “No” by her free consent in collaboration with divine grace to deliver the new Adam for the remission of sin.

PAX :heaven:

 

[Tomster]

I really doubt that Jesus depended on any human for accomplishing His mission.

Hold on my friend.

Where love does not find a likeness it tends to create it. So it is with the union between Christ and the Church. The Word, in taking flesh, assumed our human nature; this He did in order that his brethren according to the flesh might be made “partakers of the divine nature.” (2 Peter 1:4) We were made to be conformable to the image of the Son of God (Romans 8:29), renewed according to the likeness of him who created us (Galatians 4:6). Thus all Christians have as the object of their lives the imitation of Christ, the shaping of their thoughts and conduct in response to his Spirit. So, in fact, the Church, as Christ’s Mystical Body, models her life upon his.

“Following in the footsteps of her divine Founder, she teaches, governs and offers the divine sacrifice. Again, when she practices the evangelical counsels she portrays in herself the poverty, the obedience, and the virginity of the Redeemer. And again the manifold Orders and institutions in the Church - so many jewels with which she is adorned - show forth Christ in various aspects of his life; contemplating on the mountain, preaching to the people, healing the sick, bringing sinners to repentence, and doing good to all. No wonder, then, that during her existence on this earth she resembles Christ also in suffering persecutions, insults and tribulation.” - from the Encyclical Letter “Mystical Body of Christ” Pope Pius XII

There follows, as a consequence, the need for co-operation beteen Head and members. The Bridegroom and the Bride, which is the Church, must be of one mind. Our Lord invites - in a sense, he needs - our working together with Him in the building up of the Mystical Body.

 

[diggerdomer]

Jesus IS GOD

Yes of course. But Jesus didn’t choose Mary. He wasn’t born yet.

 

[diggerdomer]

If I may, look at it this way: It has been God’s plan to become incarnate by the fiat of a woman. There was no coercion on God’s part at the Annunciation. Nor does God necessarily have to save us out of obligation. The Pharisees whom Jesus and Paul condemned believed that they could justify themselves by their works alone and so make God indebted to them. If Mary had said Lo, then Eve’s transgression and the subsequent fall of Adam (mankind) would not have been reversed, according to God’s plan. God wills to permit our aversion to his will, since God will not save us in his mercy if we freely choose to reject and disobey him individually out of cold indifference. Eve and Mary, the new Eve, are representatives of us as a race in the divine order of redemption. Mary’s “Yes” to God undid the consequences of Eve’s “No” by her free consent in collaboration with divine grace to deliver the new Adam for the remission of sin.

PAX :heaven:

Paul was a Pharisee. Where does he condemn Pharisees?

 

[diggerdomer]

N.B. God wouldn’t do something that would thwart his plans; however, Mary could have said no because she had free will like all of us. **The fact that she didn’t **and that is part of the beauty of Our Lady, beauty that Our God saw and thus chose her as Mother of Our Salvation!

Amen!

 

[diggerdomer]

Hold on my friend.

Where love does not find a likeness it tends to create it. So it is with the union between Christ and the Church. The Word, in taking flesh, assumed our human nature; this He did in order that his brethren according to the flesh might be made “partakers of the divine nature.” (2 Peter 1:4) We were made to be conformable to the image of the Son of God (Romans 8:29), renewed according to the likeness of him who created us (Galatians 4:6). Thus all Christians have as the object of their lives the imitation of Christ, the shaping of their thoughts and conduct in response to his Spirit. So, in fact, the Church, as Christ’s Mystical Body, models her life upon his.

“Following in the footsteps of her divine Founder, she teaches, governs and offers the divine sacrifice. Again, when she practices the evangelical counsels she portrays in herself the poverty, the obedience, and the virginity of the Redeemer. And again the manifold Orders and institutions in the Church - so many jewels with which she is adorned - show forth Christ in various aspects of his life; contemplating on the mountain, preaching to the people, healing the sick, bringing sinners to repentence, and doing good to all. No wonder, then, that during her existence on this earth she resembles Christ also in suffering persecutions, insults and tribulation.” - from the Encyclical Letter “Mystical Body of Christ” Pope Pius XII

There follows, as a consequence, the need for co-operation beteen Head and members. The Bridegroom and the Bride, which is the Church, must be of one mind. Our Lord invites - in a sense, he needs - our working together with Him in the building up of the Mystical Body.

Ok…but I’m really unclear how that relates to my response to the post I responded to. Thanks anyway.

 

[diggerdomer]

Though I did not write this response, I am going to add a few words. I do not pretend to speak for the original author of this post, but I had a friend explain this to me, and I found it helpful.

If Mary had said no, would Jesus not have become incarnate? The fact is we don’t KNOW what would have happened if Mary had said no because she didn’t. We simply don’t know the answer. Had my parents not chosen to open their hearts to the possibility of another child, at the moment that they did, would I be here? I simply don’t know.

So, when people say, “no Mary, no Jesus” there is truth to that. Likewise, one could say ‘No Jews, No Jesus’, since that was the people from whom he came. It might even be the case that ‘No Joseph, No Jesus’, since he certainly was a protector of Mary and the infant Jesus. So, the fact is, that Jesus, particularly as the person and in the time and place we understand Him to be, was most certainly as a result of Mary’s ‘yes’.

And to your last question that a human has the ability to thrwart God’s plan. Of course! After all, it is God’s desire that all men be saved, but we stand in the way of THAT plan all the time. His plan was that we should all live in Eden with Him. Adam and Eve thwarted that plan, too. We’re always getting in the way of His plans for us, so indeed, since we all have free will, we all have the ability to thrwart God’s plans for us.

I hoep this was helpful.

I think my fundamental question was not about whether humans in general can “thwart God’s plan” (of course we can exercise free will contrary to God’s will) but rather, if God intended the Incarnation, could human free will deny that? I don’t think so.

 

[Good_Fella]

Paul was a Pharisee. Where does he condemn Pharisees?

St. Paul was a Pharisee who converted to the Christian faith and thereby became critical of their beliefs and teachings that misled the Jews. They believed that by their meticulous observance of Mosaic law God was obligated to reward them regardless of how they intentionally conducted their lives in opposition to the spirit of the law of love and freedom. Thus our salvation is a gift granted purely out of God’s mercy. It isn’t something that God necessarily owes us. There’s no reason for God having to coerce Mary to say “Yes” so that he can pay his debt to those who keep his commandments. God could just as well have decided not to send his Son into the world made of a woman without being unjust.

Who has ever given to God that God should repay him?
Romans 11, 35

PAX:harp:

 

[Good_Fella]

I think my fundamental question was not about whether humans in general can “thwart God’s plan” (of course we can exercise free will contrary to God’s will) but rather, if God intended the Incarnation, could human free will deny that? I don’t think so.

God could have become incarnate as the new Adam just as Adam had been formed* out of the clay of the ground* (Gen 2:7), but God willed to send his Son made of a woman (Gal 4:4) for a special purpose. The early Church Fathers provide insight into the divine plan by presenting Mary as a type of new Eve.

“The Son of God became man through a Virgin, so that the disobedience caused by the serpent might be destroyed in the same way it had begun. For Eve, who was a virgin and undefiled, gave birth to disobedience and death after listening to the serpent’s words. But the Virgin Mary conceived faith and joy; for when the angel Gabriel brought her the glad tidings that the Holy Spirit would come upon her and that the power of the Most High would overshadow her, so that the Holy One born of her would be the Son of God, she answered, ‘Let it be done to me according to your word’ (Lk 1:38). Thus was born of her the Child of whom so many Scriptures speak, as we have shown. Through Him, God crushed the serpent, along with those angels and men who had become like the serpent.”
St. Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 100 (A.D.155)

“Eve was seduced by the word of the fallen angel and transgressed God’s word, so that she fled from him. In the same way, Mary was evangelized by the word of an angel and obeyed God’s word, so that she carried him within her. And while the former was seduced into disobeying God, the latter was persuaded to obey God, so that the Virgin Mary became the advocate of the virgin Eve. And just as the human race was bound to death because of a virgin, so it was set free from death by a Virgin, since the disobedience of one virgin was counterbalanced by a Virgin’s obedience.”
St. Irenaeus of Lyons, Against Heresies, 5, 19 (A.D. 180)

“Because the serpent had struck Eve with his claw, the foot of Mary bruised him.”
St. Ephrem, Diatessaron, 10, 13 (A.D. 373)

“I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed; she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.”
Genesis 3, 15 [D-R]

PAX :heaven:

 

[nuntym]

Yes of course. But Jesus didn’t choose Mary. He wasn’t born yet.

Whoa, wait a minute…are you saying Jesus was not God, or aware for Himself, until He was born from the Virgin Mary? Then what happened to the Nicene Creed?

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father;
through him all things were made.

And even if so, are you saying that Jesus, as God, couldn’t have chosen a mother for Himself?

 

[GreatScott7]

Thanks for your answers guys! Food for the thought and all.

This kind of Marian “worship” (what else can one call it?) is not common in Catholicism, but it is out there on the fringe. Can you provide some examples of these sites?

I don’t know, maybe it’s because I live in a very Hispanic area, so we’ve got that whole “Virgen de Guadelupe” thing going on, but…perhaps excessive? devotion to Mary is VERY common. You go into ANY church at all, and you find the Mary statue, and it’s surrounded with flowers and candles and people praying. You find the statue of Jesus, or His icon, and He’s a very lonely Jesus. If He does have a lot of flowers, it’s always (as far as I’ve seen) because He’s baby!Jesus, and Mary is carrying Him.

I read a book called “The Glories of Mary”, by St. Alfonso Liguori, because I thought it would help answer some of my questions. That’s where I found the “salvation of all who invoke” quote. Another example of where I found those sorts of quotes is the St. Aloysius prayer. As far as website examples, um, pretty much any website advocating the Rosary? ^_^;; (No offense, I do pray the Rosary, but “creepiness” abounds on those sites.) Uh, I guess, more specifically, these ones are some I remember: www.fifthmariandogma.com, www.queenship.org, and www.motherofallpeoples.com. I remember they used the phrase, “co-redemptrix”, which I thought was…weird? It made me go a little 1 Timothy 2:5, to be honest, what about you?

Also, I first started thinking about all of this because the Father did a sermon where he retold a story about St. Francis, St. Dominic, and…someone, sheltering in a cave and talking about how the Rosary and Scapular would save everyone. That’s when I started noticing a lot of bumper stickers in the parking lot saying similar things, and I went “What the what?”

Paul was a Pharisee. Where does he condemn Pharisees?

Um, I’m going to get a little OT here, but PRETTY MUCH ANYWHERE HE SAYS THE LAW DOESN’T SAVE. There are a lot of examples, just go on BibleGateway or something and type in Law and do a NT only search, and you’ll see what I mean. The main thing of the Pharisees was that they believed that everyone had to keep a level of cleanliness, expected only of priests in the temple, ALL THE TIME, and that the Law would save you, when really it just pleased God.

Anyways, I’m going to do a TL;DR summary of the posts thus far: Devotion to Mary saves because Mary is an extension of Jesus. I guess that sort of begs the question…why bother?
OK, Fatima specifically told us to pray the Rosary everyday, and that a 9 year old boy had to pray a lot of Rosarys to escape hell. But why? What benefit do we gain? I remember when I was transitioning into praying the Rosary regularly, I’d get so uncomfortable I started replacing all of the Hail Marys with the Jesus prayer. I don’t do that any more, but why wouldn’t that be kosher, to go “straight to the source”?

 

[nuntym]

I think my fundamental question was not about whether humans in general can “thwart God’s plan” (of course we can exercise free will contrary to God’s will) but rather, if God intended the Incarnation, could human free will deny that? I don’t think so.

I think, diggerdomer, that what the posters were saying is that no one can stop God from doing His plan on the world. But, Mary could have stopped God from doing that plan through her, if she so wanted.

Indeed, the Virgin Mary’s “yes”, her fiat was the greatest ever made by a creature because, for one, there was no weight of sin in it; if our Mother had said “no”, she would not have sinned. And second, and most important, she never went back on that decision, but gave her all for it.

 

[diggerdomer]

St. Paul was a Pharisee who converted to the Christian faith and thereby became critical of their beliefs and teachings that misled the Jews. They believed that by their meticulous observance of Mosaic law God was obligated to reward them regardless of how they intentionally conducted their lives in opposition to the spirit of the law of love and freedom. Thus our salvation is a gift granted purely out of God’s mercy. It isn’t something that God necessarily owes us. There’s no reason for God having to coerce Mary to say “Yes” so that he can pay his debt to those who keep his commandments. God could just as well have decided not to send his Son into the world made of a woman without being unjust.

Who has ever given to God that God should repay him?
Romans 11, 35

PAX:harp:

Whether Pharisees in the first century believed as you claim is debatable.

 

[diggerdomer]

Whoa, wait a minute…are you saying Jesus was not God, or aware for Himself, until He was born from the Virgin Mary? Then what happened to the Nicene Creed?

No.

The Nicene Creed came about centuries after the Incarnation, so I don’t see how that applies.

 

[nuntym]

No.

The Nicene Creed came about centuries after the Incarnation, so I don’t see how that applies.

diggerdomer, all doctrines of the Church are about Truths that are true yesterday, today, and forever, so appropriate parts of the Nicene Creed also applies to what happened before the Incarnation.

I was very surprised with your response, diggerdomer, as I wouldn’t think a Catholic would have that kind of response.

Anyways you may want to look here: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=6694778#post6694778

 

[diggerdomer]

diggerdomer, all doctrines of the Church are about Truths that are true yesterday, today, and forever, so appropriate parts of the Nicene Creed also applies to what happened before the Incarnation.

I was very surprised with your response, diggerdomer, as I wouldn’t think a Catholic would have that kind of response.

Anyways you may want to look here: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=6694778#post6694778

That link is not coherent with official Catholic teaching. I would be surprised if any Catholic thought it was dogma or doctrine. Thanks anyway.

 

[nuntym]

That link is not coherent with official Catholic teaching. I would be surprised if any Catholic thought it was dogma or doctrine. Thanks anyway.

Which one, the Nicene Creed?

 

[nuntym]

That link is not coherent with official Catholic teaching. I would be surprised if any Catholic thought it was dogma or doctrine. Thanks anyway.

catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0510fea5.asp

And oh yeah, what about what you said about the Nicene Creed?