How does Marian devotion save?

[Tomster]

I have no problem with acknowledging that Mary was an important figure in that story. But Jesus is the central character of not only that story, but of the whole Bible.

Who is “Our Lady of Fatima”? What identifies her as being whom you think she is?

The scriptures listed are for me and they are for anyone who will have ears to hear. Why do you suppose I have a blindness towards them?

Happy to oblige. And I’d like to share what I see in them (briefly):

Matthew 25: 31-46

One day I, along with you and everyone else, will stand before the judgement throne of God. I will be counted in either as one of the goats (non believers) or as one of the sheep (believers in the Lord Jesus Christ). If I am counted as one of the righteous, Jesus will make it known to me that whatever good works I accomplished is this life would be as though it were done towards him. The opposite is true for the “goats” or non believer. If we are found by Jesus to be one of the “goats”, we will be sentenced and sent to eternal punishment in hell. If we are found to be one of His faithful, we will be rewarded with eternity with Him. The judgement of Jesus will be absolutely certain and just.

Luke 16:19-31

A rich man ends up in torment in hell and sees the beggar on Abraham’s side. He longs to be on the other side, but the chasm is insurmountable. He begs to be allowed back to warn his brothers, but is denied with the fact that sending him back to warn his brothers would be useless because if they will not even believe what Mose and the prophets said, they will not believe one who is raised from the dead.

Oops, I’ve got to go now…will continue later.

Fair Lady,

So glad you do not subscribe to the “Once Saved Always Saved” error that some Protestants on this message board believe in.

 

[crazzeto]

I have no problem with acknowledging that Mary was an important figure in that story. But Jesus is the central character of not only that story, but of the whole Bible.

Certainly the miricle Jesus performed is the central aspect, with out it the wedding feast wasn’t worthy of note was it? But where many protestants (moondweller in particular, but I would argue you as well) go wrong is in not seeing how important the role Mary played is.

With complete faith, faith as to move mountains (one might say) she begged the Lord to provide for this couple, to ensure they didn’t have to endure shame at this happy moment. This demonstrates for us how we Christians should approch our faith, but it also demonstrates that Jesus will not deny his mother. After all, he him self perfectly follows all commandments.

So why would you not come to know the face of Jesus through her eyes? Why would you not ask for her intercession, as Eliphaz sought the intercession of Job, and the Israelites sought the intercession of Moses on countless occations.

Who is “Our Lady of Fatima”? What identifies her as being whom you think she is?

The Blessed Virgin, her very Christian message and her miricle identified her self with out question to the Church. Who am I, to question this?

The scriptures listed are for me and they are for anyone who will have ears to hear. Why do you suppose I have a blindness towards them?

Your line of questioning would have me suppose you deny the very scriptures I posted about.

Happy to oblige. And I’d like to share what I see in them (briefly):

Matthew 25: 31-46

One day I, along with you and everyone else, will stand before the judgement throne of God. I will be counted in either as one of the goats (non believers) or as one of the sheep (believers in the Lord Jesus Christ). If I am counted as one of the righteous, Jesus will make it known to me that whatever good works I accomplished is this life would be as though it were done towards him. The opposite is true for the “goats” or non believer. If we are found by Jesus to be one of the “goats”, we will be sentenced and sent to eternal punishment in hell. If we are found to be one of His faithful, we will be rewarded with eternity with Him. The judgement of Jesus will be absolutely certain and just.

And on what basis does Christ make his Judgements? What is the important factor? And how does this tie in directly with Our Lady’s message?

Luke 16:19-31

A rich man ends up in torment in hell and sees the beggar on Abraham’s side. He longs to be on the other side, but the chasm is insurmountable. He begs to be allowed back to warn his brothers, but is denied with the fact that sending him back to warn his brothers would be useless because if they will not even believe what Mose and the prophets said, they will not believe one who is raised from the dead.

Oops, I’ve got to go now…will continue later.

I understand, it’s a miricle you can post here as much as you do. Additional to what you post here though. There’s also the complete awareness even the richman has of what is going on on earth. Certainly something that Lazurus shares, which speaks directly to another scripture which I had not yet posted

Acts 9:1-18

 

[crazzeto]

Fair Lady,

So glad you do not subscribe to the “Once Saved Always Saved” error that some Protestants on this message board believe in.

I’m currently 50/50 on whether or not she subscribes to it though certainly I would be very happy if she didn’t. I’m curious how she responds to my followup. if she doesn’t though, it sort of complicates some of my responses because I was directing them at moondweller (certainly seems to subscribe to that theory) and fairlady.

 

[Fair_Lady]

I have no problem with acknowledging that Mary was an important figure in that story. But Jesus is the central character of not only that story, but of the whole Bible.

Who is “Our Lady of Fatima”? What identifies her as being whom you think she is?

The scriptures listed are for me and they are for anyone who will have ears to hear. Why do you suppose I have a blindness towards them?

Happy to oblige. And I’d like to share what I see in them (briefly):

Matthew 25: 31-46

One day I, along with you and everyone else, will stand before the judgement throne of God. I will be counted in either as one of the goats (non believers) or as one of the sheep (believers in the Lord Jesus Christ). If I am counted as one of the righteous, Jesus will make it known to me that whatever good works I accomplished is this life would be as though it were done towards him. The opposite is true for the “goats” or non believer. If we are found by Jesus to be one of the “goats”, we will be sentenced and sent to eternal punishment in hell. If we are found to be one of His faithful, we will be rewarded with eternity with Him. The judgement of Jesus will be absolutely certain and just.

Luke 16:19-31

A rich man ends up in torment in hell and sees the beggar on Abraham’s side. He longs to be on the other side, but the chasm is insurmountable. He begs to be allowed back to warn his brothers, but is denied with the fact that sending him back to warn his brothers would be useless because if they will not even believe what Mose and the prophets said, they will not believe one who is raised from the dead.

Oops, I’ve got to go now…will continue later.

Just a quick post to continue on with that last scripture. What does this mean for me? That I surely must need to secure in Christ at the time of my death because my fate for eternity is then forever sealed. I will not have an opportunity to pass from eternal torment to eternal life once I have departed from this earthly body. This same message is for each and every one of us. We must decide now whether or not our allegiance is to God or someone or something other than Him.

 

[Fair_Lady]

Fair Lady,

So glad you do not subscribe to the “Once Saved Always Saved” error that some Protestants on this message board believe in.

I hold to the belief that one must be in Jesus Christ at the time of death in order to inherit eternal life. I also believe what scriptures says - that unfortunately some fall away from the faith, never to return. Their end is sadly eternal damnation. (But that’s a whole other topic, so I won’t get into it much here.)

 

[crazzeto]

I hold to the belief that one must be in Jesus Christ at the time of death in order to inherit eternal life. I also believe what scriptures says - that unfortunately some fall away from the faith, never to return. Their end is sadly eternal damnation. (But that’s a whole other topic, so I won’t get into it much here.)

Well very glad to read that.

 

[Tomster]

I hold to the belief that one must be in Jesus Christ at the time of death in order to inherit eternal life. I also believe what scriptures says - that unfortunately some fall away from the faith, never to return. Their end is sadly eternal damnation. (But that’s a whole other topic, so I won’t get into it much here.)

Fair Lady,

Thank you for your response. And I agree, that it is “a whole other topic”.

Perhaps somewhere down the road we could discuss it and have Moondweller tell us why he believes in OSAS. It would be very interesting, for me anyway, to hear a Protestant, yourself, explain to another Protestant, Moondweller, why you believe what you do.

Thanks again!

 

[PRmerger]

It would be very interesting, for me anyway, to hear a Protestant, yourself, explain to another Protestant, Moondweller, why you believe what you do.

Thanks again!

Yes. That would be very interesting to me as well. 2 Christians, each citing Bible verses to support their viewpoint–and it would be fascinating to read the back and forth dialogue.

And in the end, how would one determine whose fallible, private interpretation of Scripture is correct?

 

[Tomster]

Yes. That would be very interesting to me as well. 2 Christians, each citing Bible verses to support their viewpoint–and it would be fascinating to read the back and forth dialogue.

And in the end, how would one determine whose fallible, private interpretation of Scripture is correct?

The plot thickens!

 

[PRmerger]

It is based on this Divinely revealed truth that among Muslims and Hindus devoted to Mary there is no salvation.

Interestingly, I just learned from a poster on another thread that Islam professes, like moondweller, that Mary and Joseph had normal marital relations.

 

[Fair_Lady]

Certainly the miricle Jesus performed is the central aspect, with out it the wedding feast wasn’t worthy of note was it? But where many protestants (moondweller in particular, but I would argue you as well) go wrong is in not seeing how important the role Mary played is.

I would concur with every point that Moondweller has made on this topic. Everything he has stated with regard to this topic has been in line with what scripture tells us.

With complete faith, faith as to move mountains (one might say) she begged the Lord to provide for this couple, to ensure they didn’t have to endure shame at this happy moment. This demonstrates for us how we Christians should approch our faith, but it also demonstrates that Jesus will not deny his mother. After all, he him self perfectly follows all commandments.

The point of the story is not whether or not Jesus would deny His mother. The point of the story was to give us a glimpse of who Jesus is. He was just beginning to reveal who He really was - the Son of God. Jesus always emphasized doing His Father’s will - not His mother’s will.

Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 12:50
For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Luke 11:2
And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

John 5:30
I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

That’s just for starters - not once did Jesus seek to do the will of His mother. He turned the water into wine, not because His mother said to do so, but because He would have consistently sought the will of His Father, as pointed out in the preceding verses of scripture.

So why would you not come to know the face of Jesus through her eyes?

I don’t seek to know Christ through the eyes of any human being, but rely on the guidance of the Holy Spirit as God reveals Himself to me through the reading of His Word.

More later…

 

[Tomster]

I would concur with every point that Moondweller has made on this topic. Everything he has stated with regard to this topic has been in line with what scripture tells us.

The point of the story is not whether or not Jesus would deny His mother. The point of the story was to give us a glimpse of who Jesus is. He was just beginning to reveal who He really was - the Son of God. Jesus always emphasized doing His Father’s will - not His mother’s will.

Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 12:50
For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Luke 11:2
And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

John 5:30
I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

That’s just for starters - not once did Jesus seek to do the will of His mother. He turned the water into wine, not because His mother said to do so, but because He would have consistently sought the will of His Father, as pointed out in the preceding verses of scripture.

I don’t seek to know Christ through the eyes of any human being, but rely on the guidance of the Holy Spirit as God reveals Himself to me through the reading of His Word.

More later…

Granted, this is off topic as stated earlier, BUT, how do you square your belief in the last judgment and Moondweller’s belief in Once Saved Always Saved? It is obvious that the two of you read the same Bible but come up with two totally different opinions on this very crucial matter. If the Holy Spirit has led the both of you to agree on the current topic regarding the Blessed Virgin Mary, why hasn’t He led you to agree on the matter of salvation which the both of you disagree over?

 

[PRmerger]

I have no problem with acknowledging that Mary was an important figure in that story. But Jesus is the central character of not only that story, but of the whole Bible.

That’s very Catholic of you to say that, Fair Lady!

In fact, you have stated quite eloquently the Catholic paradigm regarding Mary and Jesus: Mary is an important figure but Jesus is the central character

 

[PRmerger]

I don’t seek to know Christ through the eyes of any human being, but rely on the guidance of the Holy Spirit as God reveals Himself to me through the reading of His Word.

More later…

Yet, Fair Lady, I assume that you’re not claiming to be an infallible interpreter of Scripture, yes?

So what you’re proclaiming as your interpretation of Scripture is merely one person’s fallible, nonauthoritative position.

And to the degree that it is in concert with the Teaching of the Apostles is the degree that we know it to be correct. When a person’s fallible, nonauthoritativ interpretation diverges from this we know he is following a different gospel.

 

[PRmerger]

Granted, this is off topic as stated earlier, BUT, how do you square your belief in the last judgment and Moondweller’s belief in Once Saved Always Saved? It is obvious that the two of you read the same Bible but come up with two totally different opinions on this very crucial matter. If the Holy Spirit has led the both of you to agree on the current topic regarding the Blessed Virgin Mary, why hasn’t He led you to agree on the matter of salvation which the both of you disagree over?

Exactly.

And why are there now over 30,000 different denominations of Christianity, each claiming they have relied “on the guidance of the Holy Spirit as God reveals Himself to me through the reading of His Word” yet each teachng different–and sometimes even *contrary *doctrines!

 

[Tomster]

Exactly.

And why are there now over 30,000 different denominations of Christianity, each claiming they have relied “on the guidance of the Holy Spirit as God reveals Himself to me through the reading of His Word” yet each teachng different–and sometimes even *contrary *doctrines!

Exactly,

And we are seeing it unfold right before our very eyes as we speak!

What our esteemed adversaries absolutely fail to see is the devastating effects the Protestant dogma of “private judgment” has had on them. And it is their dogma! Private judgement has forced them to separate themselves into oblivion. Again, as we speak and right before our very eyes, we observe the world-wide disintegration of another Protestant sect, Anglicanism/Episcopalianism.

The error of private judgement can never be rectified within the many varieties of Protestantism. It is impossible. For, if world-wide Protestantism were able to rectify the error, they would cease to be Protestant.

 

[Tomster]

I would concur with every point that Moondweller has made on this topic. Everything he has stated with regard to this topic has been in line with what scripture tells us.

The point of the story is not whether or not Jesus would deny His mother. The point of the story was to give us a glimpse of who Jesus is. He was just beginning to reveal who He really was - the Son of God. Jesus always emphasized doing His Father’s will - not His mother’s will.

Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 12:50
For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Luke 11:2
And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

John 5:30
I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

That’s just for starters - not once did Jesus seek to do the will of His mother. He turned the water into wine, not because His mother said to do so, but because He would have consistently sought the will of His Father, as pointed out in the preceding verses of scripture.

I don’t seek to know Christ through the eyes of any human being, but rely on the guidance of the Holy Spirit as God reveals Himself to me through the reading of His Word.

More later…

Fair Lady,

It is heartening to see that you and Moondweller agree on something. But just because the two of you agree on something does that make the matter you agree on true? If you were to take a good, close, hard, objective look at the history of your spiritual forefathers, it would become obvious to you that unity in belief was certainly not one their strong points to put it mildly. And the strife continues to his very day. The battle cry of the Reformers, "the Bible and the Bible alone (Sola Scriptura), is not even contained in the Bible.

Sola Scriptura is the most vulnerable dogma of the Reformation. We Catholics can prove, without question, by patristic, theological, exegetical and epistemological evidence which will demonstrate that Sola Scriptura is abosolutely indefensible. Not only that, it is a grave theological error that has led countless souls to doctrinal ruin. It is purely a human construct that all Christians who love and obey God’s Word should reject as a tradition of men that nullifies and distorts that Word.

 

[moondweller]

I would concur with every point that Moondweller has made on this topic. Everything he has stated with regard to this topic has been in line with what scripture tells us.

And I concur with you, Fair Lady. And you have displayed wisdom based on your Scriptural knowledge.

The point of the story is not whether or not Jesus would deny His mother. The point of the story was to give us a glimpse of who Jesus is. He was just beginning to reveal who He really was - the Son of God.

Yes! Most definitely with His dialogue with Nathanael in the preceding verses.

Jesus always emphasized doing His Father’s will - not His mother’s will.

Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 12:50
For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Luke 11:2
And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

John 5:30
I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

And in the verses following the wedding account John explains for us the reason behind the miracle at the wedding:John 2:11 "This beginning of {His} signs Jesus did in Cana of Galilee, and manifested His glory, and His disciples believed in Him."The miracle was to manifest HIS glory. It had nothing to do with Mary.

That’s just for starters - not once did Jesus seek to do the will of His mother. He turned the water into wine, not because His mother said to do so, but because He would have consistently sought the will of His Father, as pointed out in the preceding verses of scripture.

Absolutely. And the “sign” they saw with their own eyes aided them to draw the conclusion that a superior being was among them who had substantiated His claims by His deed of mercy and power. It is indeed a perverse interpretation of that account to conclude that its purpose was to ultimately promote devotion to Mary. It’s sole purpose, as testified by the immediate Scriptures, was to manifest HIS GLORY, and for His disciples, as well as all Israel, to believe IN HIM. Belief in Him unto eternal life is what the Gospel accounts are all about. In time, even Mary believed, as well as His siblings (Acts 1:14, all of them, hopefully).

I enjoyed your post, Fair Lady, because it gives all glory Jesus Christ. As did the miracle at Cana.

 

[PRmerger]

And I concur with you, Fair Lady. And you have displayed wisdom based on your Scriptural knowledge.

And yet, curiously, Fair Lady has not displayed wisdom based on her Scriptural knowledge with her denial of OSAS dogma?

Is that your position, moon, that she is incorrect when she denies OSAS, based on her wisdom and Scriptural knowledge?

 

[Fair_Lady]

And I concur with you, Fair Lady. And you have displayed wisdom based on your Scriptural knowledge.Yes! Most definitely with His dialogue with Nathanael in the preceding verses.And in the verses following the wedding account John explains for us the reason behind the miracle at the wedding:John 2:11 "This beginning of {His} signs Jesus did in Cana of Galilee, and manifested His glory, and His disciples believed in Him."The miracle was to manifest HIS glory. It had nothing to do with Mary.Absolutely. And the “sign” they saw with their own eyes aided them to draw the conclusion that a superior being was among them who had substantiated His claims by His deed of mercy and power. It is indeed a perverse interpretation of that account to conclude that its purpose was to ultimately promote devotion to Mary. It’s sole purpose, as testified by the immediate Scriptures, was to manifest HIS GLORY, and for His disciples, as well as all Israel, to believe IN HIM. Belief in Him unto eternal life is what the Gospel accounts are all about. In time, even Mary believed, as well as His siblings (Acts 1:14, all of them, hopefully).

Amen and AMEN! Thank you for expounding on that, moondweller.

I enjoyed your post, Fair Lady, because it gives all glory Jesus Christ. As did the miracle at Cana.

Thank you for your kind words, moondweller. I’m appreciating your posts as well because it is clear to me that you are here to glorify our Lord and Saviour.