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East_and_West
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holdencaulfield
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True, it is an open theological question. I believe that St. Bellarine took the stance that the Pope could lose his office.
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holdencaulfield
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EasterJoy
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You’re not confirmed yet, and you’ve been arguing with the rest of the Church because we don’t criticize the Pope strongly enough for you?
Somebody who has been settled in their discernment for such a short time might consider leaving the word “heretic” in more experienced hands, don’t you think? I mean, really, think about it: You’re not confirmed yet, and you’re already asking how to get a Pope excommunicated? How did you get there? Who is feeding you such a pile of hubris as that?
I don’t know how you could possibly have a wide enough experience with the Novus Ordo to give it such blanket condemnations as you do. Have you read Sacramentum Caritatis? The Pope and the Synod of Bishops sees it a bit differently than you do. That’s a lot of experience with the NO…and yes, a few of them could possibly match your appreciation of Latin. I bet a few are better than the guys that run Fish Eaters.
Honestly, reading some of your posts is like being around a kid who can’t wait for Mom and Dad to die, so he can re-model their house. Read back over some of your posts before you dismiss the analogy.
Just a thought. Free advice is of course worth what you paid for it. Unsolicited advice…maybe a bit less.
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holdencaulfield
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It was a hypothetical question. I was wondering if it could be done. I believe that Benedict XVI is one of the better Popes we have had in awhile. I’m very sorry for not subscribing to modernism. I have seen liturgical abuses (not as bad as many mentioned on this forum however). And I know that they should not be done.
Modernism is like a little kid playing with matches. It’s fun for awhile, until you burn the house down.
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EasterJoy
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I don’t recall asking you to subscribe to modernism. I merely suggested that you consider becoming a bit less liberal in the application of your criticisms. It isn’t cowardice to keep your mouth shut when you know you’re not an expert yet.
For instance…one of the better Popes “we’ve” had in awhile? I’d ask how long you’ve been in the Church, but you haven’t even been confirmed yet! Our last Holy Father was there for 26 years, and was in fact the one who chose a certain Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger as his Prefect for the Congregation of the Doctrine of Faith for most of it…were you even born for any other pontificates, save those two?
Modernism is “like” people in the present thinking that the people who went before them were, by definition, ignorant, lazy, self-deceived, stupid, stodgy–or, well, fill in the blank–until proven otherwise, which isn’t likely. In any event, it is an ideology of hubris.
Surely I’ve made my point. Either you get it or you don’t, and either you’ll take it or leave it. Again, this is free advice, and worth every penny.
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holdencaulfield
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I get your point and I agree with you. I run my mouth way to much for my own good. And the only Popes in my life time have been Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI, however I still know much about the Church. Do not condemn me because I am young. So yes, I agree that I have a know it all attitude, and I apologize. I just dislike the Novus Ordo. I view it as Valid and Licit, however that doesn’t mean I have to love it. 
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EasterJoy
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I understand. Trust me, start working on it now…it does not get any easier.I get your point and I agree with you. I run my mouth way to much for my own good. And the only Popes in my life time have been Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI, however I still know much about the Church. Do not condemn me because I am young. So yes, I agree that I have a know it all attitude, and I apologize. I just dislike the Novus Ordo. I view it as Valid and Licit, however that doesn’t mean I have to love it.
Let me serve as a warning to you, young man!!!
(You should be afraid. Very afraid.
)
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Tietjen
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I appreciate that and I too wish to reach “across the aisle” on this and apologize for my behavior. I was not very charitable. Despite our differences of opinion on this subject, I don’t believe we are that far apart. I have a great respect for the TLM and most certainly would not be opposed to seeing several “more modern” things changed. God bless and peace.
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jimmy
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jimmy
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East and West:
This is one of the most rediculous statements. The fact is that both the Greeks and the Syrians placed a great deal of emphasis on mystery unlike the west who thinks they can contain God within their minds and consequently believe in a god that is not perfect. The fact is that St. Ephrem HATED definitions. The same with every other saint in the Syrian church. The Greeks have always placed a great deal of stress on Mystery as well, that is why the sacraments are not called sacraments in Greek but Mysteries.
And you are intensely anti-eastern.
You can only know God through God revealing Himself. You can not learn of God through your own reason.
That is exactly what you do.
This is a complete lie on your part.
You deny participation in the divine nature which is spoken clearly of in 2Peter1.
The problem to them is that you base your whole theology on these two men. THe only use you have for the Greek fathers is when you can manipulate them to Thomistic or Augustinian thought.
And the west has rejected Tradition. It has rejected its culture and it is on the verge of collapsing.
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catharina
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I don’t know who kicked you and wound you up. I apologize for him or her or them. However, the clouds of your rage are so intense that I can’t see the points of reason behind the clouds.
Truly, I’m clueless - except I can tell that you’re angry.
I can’t even tell who it is you’re addressing. You want to start over or skip the whole thing?
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jimmy
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I get angry when people degrade the eastern tradition, whether it is Syriac or Byzantine. As Rome has affirmed, the eastern tradition is just as legitimate as that of the west. Read Orientale Lumen.I will defend the east against those who wish to make us just like the west.
My post was against East and West since he is the one who has made the accusations.
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holdencaulfield
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It seems that one can Excommunicate a Pope according to Pope Paul IV in Cum Ex Apostolus
- In addition, [by this Our Constitution, which is to remain valid in perpetuity We enact, determine, decree and define:] that if ever at any time it shall appear that any Bishop, even if he be acting as an Archbishop, Patriarch or Primate; or any Cardinal of the aforesaid Roman Church, or, as has already been mentioned, any legate, or even the Roman Pontiff, prior to his promotion or his elevation as Cardinal or Roman Pontiff, has deviated from the Catholic Faith or fallen into some heresy:
(i) the promotion or elevation, even if it shall have been uncontested and by the unanimous assent of all the Cardinals, shall be null, void and worthless;
(ii) it shall not be possible for it to acquire validity (nor for it to be said that it has thus acquired validity) through the acceptance of the office, of consecration, of subsequent authority, nor through possession of administration, nor through the putative enthronement of a Roman Pontiff, or Veneration, or obedience accorded to such by all, nor through the lapse of any period of time in the foregoing situation;
(iii) it shall not be held as partially legitimate in any way;
(iv) to any so promoted to be Bishops, or Archbishops, or Patriarchs, or Primates or elevated as Cardinals, or as Roman Pontiff, no authority shall have been granted, nor shall it be considered to have been so granted either in the spiritual or the temporal domain;
(v) each and all of their words, deeds, actions and enactments, howsoever made, and anything whatsoever to which these may give rise, shall be without force and shall grant no stability whatsoever nor any right to anyone;
(vi) those thus promoted or elevated shall be deprived automatically, and without need for any further declaration, of all dignity, position, honour, title, authority, office and power.
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EasterJoy
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There’s a thread on the apologist forum that says no, the Pope cannot be excommunicated, nor even deposed from the papacy, even if his rule is illicit:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=81387
So, there you are.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=81387
So, there you are.
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holdencaulfield
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Thank you for searching, however the apologist forums are nice, but not perfect.
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pnewton
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Besides, it was only Michelle Arnold. Now if Fr. Serpa had answered…
(just kidding)In truth, I like the answer, especially this practical advice.
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tdgesq
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holdencaulfield
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@pnewton:
No I do agree, however that being said. A Pope can fall into heresy, and can be excommunicated after death. My question was can they be excommunicated while they are alive. It seems like they can, however I don’t know how.
No I do agree, however that being said. A Pope can fall into heresy, and can be excommunicated after death. My question was can they be excommunicated while they are alive. It seems like they can, however I don’t know how.
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