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fhansen
Guest
Ok, then, what does the deprivation of holiness and justice mean for us? Can we enter heaven without being justified? And, if not, how do we *become *justified? These questions involve basic Catholic teachings.
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grannymh
Guest
Obviously, you may certainly complain about my “pig” humor.You are certainly welcome to opine that pigs can fly too. That doesn’t mean your opinions are credible, especially when you assert equally silly rationales such as an omission by a later condensed version Catechism MUST mean correction of a prior error. That is just wishful thinking on your part.
Is it erroneous to belive in the limbo of babies also? I do not believe so, while it is not currently taught explicitly in the Catechism it is still acceptable to hold that teaching, it has been omitted but never denied as possible.
The Church has clearly taught that unbaptised babies are in a state of mortal sin and this teaching is much stronger than that of limbo.
If you opine, contrary to the Church, this teaching is actually in error the burden is on you to make a clear case. What you actually need to do is provide a brief and clear theological reason why it cannot be true for you will not find anything so explicit ever asserted by the Magisterium.
The real issue is not that the Church was in error on this point…rather you yourself do not seem to quite understand what it actually means. Possibly because your own understanding of sin is where the mistakeness actually lies. A possibility you seem unwilling to acknowledge.
However, the implication that I have not presented proper posts is a serious misrepresentation of my work.
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grannymh
Guest
Basic Catholic Teachings
The State of Deprivation of Original Holiness and Justice is our state at conception.
The State of Sanctifying Grace, which is opposite of the State of Mortal Sin, is required for entrance to the presence of the Beatific Vision. Usually, we receive the State of Sanctifying Grace in the Sacrament of Baptism. CCC 1259-1260 explain what happens if for some reason it is not possible to receive the desired Sacrament of Baptism.
**1259 **For *catechumens *who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.
**1260 **“Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.” Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of His Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.
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Blue_Horizon
Guest
I have no comments to make on your “work” whatever that refers to.
I simply observe you have yet to credibly substantiate:
(a) your assertion that “unbaptized babies are in a state of mortal sin” is not an acceptable teaching of the Catholic Church;
(b) your assertion that if f an abridged Catechism does not repeat statements in an older Catechism that necessarily means the omitted statements were in error.
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grannymh
Guest
I respect your observations and your “comments.”
You certainly can do whatever you want with my posts. If you have a bird, my posts will make an excellent rug for its cage…*
.*…*
.*Likewise, I respect the observations of CAF members and guests. They can believe my posts or use them for a rug in a bird cage or both.
Seriously, I have already presented a sound Catholic position. If someone has a question or needs additional information, it is perfectly fine to go back to a post and reply to it.
In the meantime, I need a small break.:banghead:
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grannymh
Guest
Another thought.
I had started to post some ways we can explore the working of Original Sin. I am too exhausted to look for them. If someone is still interested, and can find these posts, give me a few days to catch my breath and then remind me.
The human person is worthy of profound respect.
I had started to post some ways we can explore the working of Original Sin. I am too exhausted to look for them. If someone is still interested, and can find these posts, give me a few days to catch my breath and then remind me.
The human person is worthy of profound respect.
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Blue_Horizon
Guest
The following statements, I believe are not a “sound catholic position” on this point sorry:I respect your observations and your “comments.”
You certainly can do whatever you want with my posts. If you have a bird, my posts will make an excellent rug for its cage…*
…*
Likewise, I respect the observations of CAF members and guests. They can believe my posts or use them for a rug in a bird cage or both.
Seriously, I have already presented a sound Catholic position. If someone has a question or needs additional information, it is perfectly fine to go back to a post and reply to it.
In the meantime, I need a small break.:banghead:
“the deprived State of Sanctifying Grace [which] is not the same as the State of Mortal Sin”
“there will be no reason to think that at human conception, God creates a soul in Mortal Sin.”
"We need to use the universal Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, because it corrects some of the misunderstandings which appear in local Catechisms. "
If you are unable to justify these statements that is fine.
Yet you keep repeating similar things on this thread. It is silly and not helpful to anyone to do so if you are unable to back them up with credible argument or authoritative statements.
This is a Catholic moral theology forum not a “you can say assert anything you feel is Catholic” support group.
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grannymh
Guest
The universal Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, is my authoritative source. If you feel that I am violating CAF rules by using the universal Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, please report this to the Moderator.
I hope to take a short break.
I wonder if this thread will be closed due to the lack of charity. I hope not. The Catholic truth is usually attacked – however, there have been excellent posts defending and explaining true Catholicism. I trust that true Catholicism, expressed in the universal Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, will continue to stand strong.
At some point back, I had started to post some ways we can explore the working of Original Sin. Right now, I am too exhausted to look for them. If someone is still interested, and can find these posts, or start fresh, give me a few days to catch my breath and then remind me.
Blessings,
granny
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fhansen
Guest
So then you’re admitting that don’t know if infants make it to heaven. They may remain in a state of deprivation of sanctifying grace, aka “the death of the soul”.
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grannymh
Guest
9:20 PM here.
Keep thinking those positive thoughts. They will keep you out of trouble until I get back.
By the way. Did you ever think that the only way Original Sin works is if one is convinced of God’s existence as taught in Genesis 1: 27? Have you ever considered the reverse of Genesis 2: 15-17? Better sit down. That “reverse” is so powerful …
Say Good Night to Blue Horizon for me. He sure is an interesting person with a large inventory of knowledge.
I have lots of wonderful thoughts from the universal Catechism of the Catholic Church for both of you. The best is knowing that both of you are not one of the creeping things in Genesis 1:25. (CCC 356) Stay with Blue Horizon if you chose to read the scary CCC 1732. His put down of universal truth will calm anyone and even calm a tornado if one is nearby.
9:54 PM here. I am very slow with posts. I have to admit that I am not the sharpest knife in the drawer.
As my Irish grandmother would say: “Good Night. Sleep tight. And don’t bite the bed bugs.”
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Vico
Guest
Catechism
1260 “Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.” 63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.
63 Gaudium et spes 22 § 5; cf. Lumen gentium 16; Ad gentes 7.
**1261 **As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say:
“Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,”
allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.
allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.
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fhansen
Guest
I’ll refer you to my post #50. Either way I’ll stick with the whole Catechism, Church teachings, Catholicism 101-much safer than granny’s wishful fuzzy thinking and private opinion “theology”. We start with the basics of OS: man is now born fallen as a result of Adam’s sin, lost, deprived of sanctifying grace, exiled from God, even the knowledge of God. We need a Savior-and He’s outlined the manner in which we are to be saved. Everything else is speculation.
My personal opinion is outlined in post #50. My hope and personal belief is that those who die in infancy go immediately to live with their Creator. But I don’t let emotion or personal opinion cause me to compromise basic Church teachings. I, like the Church, hope in the mercy of God. Otherwise we might as well forgo infant Baptism, if we were certain that their fate meant experiencing the BV.
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Blue_Horizon
Guest
This is a Moral Theology Forum.
You are welcome to say whatever you like.
However if you condemn the well supported position of others as mistaken you must expect robust blowback if you do so with arguments built on sand.
Correct me if I am mistaken but your only arguments to date are:
(a) Your “work” (a personal thesis on Original Sin) is incompatible with the teaching I have brought to your attention;
(b) the current Universal Catechism does not explicitly state this teaching in the same way older forumlations do…from this loss of emphasis you have somehow acquired certitude the older teaching is in error.
As one formally trained in moral theology I observe to you, on this moral theology forum, that these arguments are completely without merit and indeed vacuous.
The current Catechism does not deny the older position I have outlined. For some reason untrained lay Catholics think their position is always the right and only one on any given topic. In fact there are many teachings that the Church does not have a final answer to as yet. Consequently different views have been emphasised at different times in the past. That by no means means that positions no longer emphasised today are not valid.
In fact the position I have stated (unbaptized infants are in a state of mortal sin and left unaided cannot attain heaven) is actually far more certain that that on Limbo…provided one understands the terms correctly.
You have confused robust intellectual critique of your unsupported challenges to my theological position with uncharity.
May I remind you this is a Moral Theology Forum. As they say, if you cannot take the heat then stay out of the kitchen. Especially when you state that others are mistaken
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simpleas
Guest
Original sin needs to be thrown out of the teaching, it is an awful teaching according to this thread.
It’s no wonder there are preachers preaching about original blessings and the positive out look of human creation.
It’s no wonder there are preachers preaching about original blessings and the positive out look of human creation.
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fhansen
Guest
OS explains the presence of the ugly and selfish evil we experience daily in this world, at the hands of human beings. It’s a deadly thing, a dangerous world, when humans lack direct communion with/ loving subjugation to God.
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simpleas
Guest
We are discussing God’s created humans before they have even begun to experience the world.
What sort of God creates a life in the womb, allows that human he loves so much to pass from this world into the next without ever having a chance to know him?
And for that reason that poor soul should be denied the heavenly vision…
Makes for a case of a very nasty sort of God.
Not the God I have been taught to believe in.
At the end of the day, it is the creators call what happens to each of us living and dead.
There are plenty of messed up people in this world, but an innocent never having sinned can’t logically be held accountable for no sin committed, according to the teaching on mortal sin.
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grannymh
Guest
May I remind you this is a Moral Theology Forum. As they say, if you cannot take the heat then stay out of the kitchen. Especially when you state that others are mistaken
Apparently, you do not know that I am on break.
May you and the other participants find peace.
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fhansen
Guest
And according to the Church we all lost our innocence at the Fall. Either way, the Roman Catholic Church is far less certain that you, because of the doctrine of OS, about the eternal destiny of infants.
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Vico
Guest
Catechism
389 The doctrine of original sin is, so to speak, the “reverse side” of the Good News that Jesus is the Savior of all men, that all need salvation and that salvation is offered to all through Christ. The Church, which has the mind of Christ, 263 knows very well that we cannot tamper with the revelation of original sin without undermining the mystery of Christ.
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fhansen
Guest
And yet that person will be born is a state of alienation from their creator, a state of division and disharmony with themselves, their world, their fellow human beings to one degree or another. A state of ignorance. But I agree that none of that should qualify one for eternal punishment.
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