F
fhansen
Guest
Yes, um, that’s how it is transmitted.
- Status
V
Vico
Guest
This answers the question why it is transmitted to all.
So it means that the consequences of one man’s sin are transmitted to all through natural generation because it is a common genetic transmission.
Now you will may ask: “why did God use genes?”
B
Blue_Horizon
Guest
I no longer understand what point you are pursuing here.
You stated:
Yes, I agree that OS is transmitted by the sexual act.
Trent may not have explicitated a mechanism but the mainstream one at the time was as I stated.
I have no opinion on the matter myself, but this currently is a valid and acceptable mechanism for explaining how OS is propagated by the sexual act if you were looking for one to reflect on or critique.
Obviously this mistaken “conceptuology” needs to be corrected in the light of biological finding of the last 140 yrs but the medieval approach does offer acceptably Catholic insights beyond the statement of Trent even if the Church has not actually dogmatically clarified the situation
If you don’t want to reflect or critque further on this mechanism then all good, but then I am not at all sure where you are coming from here anymore or what your concern exactly is here.
S
simpleas
Guest
John 9
9 As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2 His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”
3 “Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, “but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him.
So are the physical disabilities of humans and other creatures exempt from Original sin? I was of the understanding, or it least it seems, some say that illness of the body and obviously death was caused by original sin.
9 As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2 His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”
3 “Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, “but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him.
So are the physical disabilities of humans and other creatures exempt from Original sin? I was of the understanding, or it least it seems, some say that illness of the body and obviously death was caused by original sin.
B
Blue_Horizon
Guest
Traditional teaching is that the though the body has capacity for immortality (ie not being separated from the soul) it is not immortal of itself.
Hence it needed to be continuously strengthened by regular eating from the Tree of Life.
As one of the consequences of Adam’s sin was that humanity was banished from the Garden this extrinsic aid is no longer available to us and hence we are susceptible to the effects of illness, aging and death.
F
fhansen
Guest
Yes, that we are.
I don’t seem to be getting very far here. BTW, I’m older than you, not that it matters much. I was thinking for a while that you may be young and insulated from the world-but I’m sure that’s not the issue here anyway. I’ll try it this way:
**385 God is infinitely good and all his works are good. Yet no one can escape the experience of suffering or the evils in nature which seem to be linked to the limitations proper to creatures: and above all to the question of moral evil. Where does evil come from? “I sought whence evil comes and there was no solution”, said St. Augustine, and his own painful quest would only be resolved by his conversion to the living God. For “the mystery of lawlessness” is clarified only in the light of the “mystery of our religion”. The revelation of divine love in Christ manifested at the same time the extent of evil and the superabundance of grace. We must therefore approach the question of the origin of evil by fixing the eyes of our faith on him who alone is its conqueror.
309 If God the Father almighty, the Creator of the ordered and good world, cares for all his creatures, why does evil exist? To this question, as pressing as it is unavoidable and as painful as it is mysterious, no quick answer will suffice. Only Christian faith as a whole constitutes the answer to this question: the goodness of creation, the drama of sin and the patient love of God who comes to meet man by his covenants, the redemptive Incarnation of his Son, his gift of the Spirit, his gathering of the Church, the power of the sacraments and his call to a blessed life to which free creatures are invited to consent in advance, but from which, by a terrible mystery, they can also turn away in advance. There is not a single aspect of the Christian message that is not in part an answer to the question of evil.**
You see the question of evil, resulting from humanity being exiled from Eden and its Creator, is a very logical and honest one, both personally- and theologically in general. And there aren’t pat answers to it; this has nothing to do with feuding French families or with the ancient vs the spoiled modern mind; it’s a universal issue, and one that the Savior came to directly address. So I’m still waiting for an answer to the question concerning “why we are not born in Adam’s State of Original Holiness and Justice?” Why would God deem it wise to pass down the consequences, the moral and spiritual as well as physical effects, by whatever means, of one’s man’s sin onto all of his descendants? That could only be a determination on His part.
O
o_mlly
Guest
Well, not everyone. Doctrinally, Mary is exempted at conception; biblically, another at birth.
CCC# 404 … Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand.
We do not know how many persons who lived before Christ whom God created either conceiving them without the stain or “pre-redeeming” them but we do know that He did so for at least some. To wit: Zechariah, Elizabeth and their son, John.
In the days of Herod, King of Judea, there was a priest named Zechariah of the priestly division of Abijah; his wife was from the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. Both were righteous in the eyes of God, observing all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blamelessly. …
… the angel said to him, “Do not be afraid, Zechariah, because your prayer has been heard. Your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you shall name him John … He will be filled with the holy Spirit even from his mother’s womb…(Luke 1:5-16).
F
fhansen
Guest
My concern was never the mechanism. The mechanism was brought up by someone as a means of answering the question I posed, which it does not, as I stated. Since it side-tracked the issue I probably shouldn’t have addressed it. Anyway the mechanism is irrelevant; God could use whatever means He wants to have OS transmitted. The question involved why He did it-not how.
G
grannymh
Guest
. So I’m still waiting for an answer to the question concerning “why we are not born in Adam’s State of Original Holiness and Justice?” Why would God deem it wise to pass down the consequences, the moral and spiritual as well as physical effects, by whatever means, of one’s man’s sin onto all of his descendants? That could only be a determination on His part.
Pardon my silliness. And do correct me if my memory is wrong about some very early posts here and there across this free speech public message board.
It seems to me that the premise of the “why” is based on today’s concept (often expressed in various attempts) that God should imitate the actions and/or beliefs of humans.
Pardon my silliness. And do correct me if my memory is wrong about some very early posts here and there across this free speech public message board.
It seems to me that the premise of the “why” is based on today’s concept (often expressed in various attempts) that God should imitate the actions and/or beliefs of humans.
F
fhansen
Guest
Still waiting for “why”.
V
Vico
Guest
Why what?Still waiting for “why”.
G
grannymh
Guest
Pardon my silliness. And do correct me if my memory is wrong about some very early posts here and there across this free speech public message board.
It seems to me that the premise of the “why” is based on today’s concept (often expressed in various attempts) that God should imitate the actions and/or beliefs of humans.
G
grannymh
Guest
It is important to look at the big picture.
God has never stopped loving those amazing human creatures who descended from Adam and who are in the image of God. Genesis 1:27. John 3:16-17.
G
grannymh
Guest
In my older than old generation, we did not skip the steps involved in “Original Sin” which is called original because the original human committed it. We learned from the dramatic shift from Genesis 1:25 to Genesis 1:27 that a huge step in the Creation Story had taken place. In fact, once we get a good grasp of Genesis 1:27, the whole scene of Original Sin flows neatly between our ears.
To answer the question "So are the physical disabilities of humans and other creatures exempt from Original sin? I first need to know your idea of Original Sin.
Thank you.
G
grannymh
Guest
Brief Observation
It seems to me that the premise of the “why” question about Original Sin transmission is based on today’s concept (occasionally expressed in various attempts) that God should imitate the actions and/or beliefs of humans.
The Human Person is worthy of profound respect.
It seems to me that the premise of the “why” question about Original Sin transmission is based on today’s concept (occasionally expressed in various attempts) that God should imitate the actions and/or beliefs of humans.
The Human Person is worthy of profound respect.
F
fhansen
Guest
Yes, we can resort to ‘God’s ways are not our ways’, and that’s certainly true enough:“Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?” (Rom 11:34)
But the Church expresses it, evil, as a mystery, *because * it doesn’t quite make sense to us-at least for now. We rely on the goodness of God to bring a greater good out of it all, rather than sugar-coating it or minimizing it-and in spite of the fact that because of one mans’ sin, humanity was exiled into a world where goodness and beauty exist together with physical evils: pain, long-term ugly, debilitating diseases, parasites that eat out the cornea of the human eye, natural catastrophes that ruin lives, and moral evil: genocide to the tune of millions in Russia, Europe, Africa, just in our age alone, people living in abysmal poverty, starvation, torture, rape, impalings and beheadings. Untold misery down through the ages, victims justly crying out for justice. Not exactly Eden, let alone heaven. Because of one man’s sin. I don’t blame Augustine or anyone else for pondering it-and trying to locate or identify that “greater good”.
F
fhansen
Guest
Why not?
G
grannymh
Guest
It looks like you never learned who that “one man” is and what is his destiny. In addition, I wonder if you ever learned about the original friendship relationship between the Creator and the created.
That is understandable since many Catholics no longer use the first three fabulous chapters of Sacred Scripture. The word “use” is important. And you need to “use” on your own.
F
fhansen
Guest
Oh, ok.
It looks like you never learned who that “one man” is and what is his destiny. In addition, I wonder if you ever learned about the original friendship relationship between the Creator and the created.
That is understandable since many Catholics no longer use the first three fabulous chapters of Sacred Scripture. The word “use” is important. And you need to “use” on your own.
O
o_mlly
Guest
As in today’s first reading, “As she was being led to execution, God stirred up the holy spirit of a young boy named Daniel.” (Dan 13:45).
It is important to look at the big picture.
God has never stopped loving those amazing human creatures who descended from Adam and who are in the image of God. Genesis 1:27. John 3:16-17.
- Status