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SilverShadow22
Guest
If by this you mean He is never taken by surprise, ok, we agree.
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SilverShadow22
Guest
He can choose to manifest within space. This does not mean He is then bound by it. I could put myself in my own story and just as easily take myself out of it again.
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Vico
Guest
Modern Catholic Dictionary
IMMATERIAL
Definition
Not having matter or the properties of matter. Negatively it is the noncorporeal; positively the spiritual. What is immaterial has no extension in space, no size, shape, parts, or quantity, no mass or weight. It is nonmeasurable reality. Three kinds of immateriality are known to Christian thought:
- Some beings are partially without matter but essentially dependent on matter for their existence and operation, e.g., the power of sensation. * Others are essentially spiritual and independent of matter for their existence but in this life depend on matter for their operation, e.g., the human soul in its activity of knowing and loving. * Still others are totally immaterial because they are independent of matter for their existence and activity. Thus the angels, who are pure spirits, whose immateriality is a created gift, and God, who is immaterial by his essence.
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Bahman
Guest
Please read post #43?
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Bahman
Guest
How do you answer to OP? To me what you offer as the definition spiritual is definition nothingness.
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SilverShadow22
Guest
Post 43 does not negate what I said. He is correct, and I am correct. They are not mutually exclusive.
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Bahman
Guest
Did you read the blue part? It clearly says that God as a immaterial being cannot occupy any space.
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SilverShadow22
Guest
He can if He chooses to. As He did in the person of Jesus. He entered the story.
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Bahman
Guest
There were many claims from individuals to be Gods. You just need to Google it. Moreover how Jesus could be in Heaven now having a body?
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seagal
Guest
If you can’t accept the premise of a spiritual being then there’s not much point to this discussion.
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Bahman
Guest
How do you define nothingness? Can God could be everywhere knowing that He is spiritual?
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seagal
Guest
Yes God can be everywhere because he is spiritual and not material. That’s quite different from nothingness, which is by definition nothing.
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SilverShadow22
Guest
The body He possesses in heaven is not the same as the ones we possess here and now - it is glorified, perfected matter, which of itself is not bound to our concepts of time and space, which is how, after the resurrection but before His ascension, He was able to walk through walls and appear and disappear. This glorification must occur before a body may exist in a realm without time and space (heaven) which is why your ‘contradiction’ isn’t.
There are whole long complicated and very precise explanations for this, and someone will probably oblige, but that’s the essence. The bodies in heaven are nothing like the bodies on earth, but since you already had issues with space, time, and the suspension of both, this probably won’t make sense to you, either.
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Aloysium
Guest
For my own benefit unfortunately, let me rephrase what people seem to be saying.
The word spirit has to do with breath. It is about life, existence, and being.
You must agree that everything that exists, exists. It must be, or it wouldn’t be.
It get its “isness” from a Ground that is Existence itself.
I am also going to put it to you that all in creation exists within a context.
For something to exist implies that it has some connection with everything else that is in the universe, even if it is remote.
The primary relationship that everything has, is with its Source, which as stated above, is Existence itself.
The Existence that created and maintains everything is relational, perfect relationally, in fact - Love.
A Trinity of divine transcendent persons, who are one, is the Ground, the simple, uncaused Cause of everything.
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fisherman_carl
Guest
Can God’s attributes be proven philosophically? Aquinas didn’t think so apparently. He thought God’s existence could be proved philosophically. But, his attributes, we could only know, through divine revelation.
The way I kind of look at omnipresence is a little different than you Bahman. First, the premise asserts that because spirit has no matter and therefore takes up no space in a physical universe then it can not be present in that universe (nevermind omnipresent). However, that premise is just wrong thinking. I can think of something immaterial, that has no size, takes up no space, yet has the potential to be everywhere in this world. I am thinking of love. Love is not composed of matter. You can’t eat it. Yet, it comes in different shapes and forms, or through different ways in our lives. For love can transcend the physical world, but use it at the same time to accomplish it’s effects. Love is metaphysical. It transcends the physical.
At any rate, one way to look at God’s omnipresence is to think of everything being present to God at once rather than God distributing himself all over time and space. Instead, everything in time and space is made present to God all at once in his eternal now. And He can act on everything at once too.
The way I kind of look at omnipresence is a little different than you Bahman. First, the premise asserts that because spirit has no matter and therefore takes up no space in a physical universe then it can not be present in that universe (nevermind omnipresent). However, that premise is just wrong thinking. I can think of something immaterial, that has no size, takes up no space, yet has the potential to be everywhere in this world. I am thinking of love. Love is not composed of matter. You can’t eat it. Yet, it comes in different shapes and forms, or through different ways in our lives. For love can transcend the physical world, but use it at the same time to accomplish it’s effects. Love is metaphysical. It transcends the physical.
At any rate, one way to look at God’s omnipresence is to think of everything being present to God at once rather than God distributing himself all over time and space. Instead, everything in time and space is made present to God all at once in his eternal now. And He can act on everything at once too.
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yppop
Guest
Bahman,
Your inability to understand the nuances of English makes you look dumber than I know you are. It is illogical to equate immaterial and spiritual even though the spiritual certainly is immaterial.
Yes, all things spiritual are immaterial; in other words the spiritual is “not material”. On the other hand, not all things immaterial are spiritual. A gravitational field is immaterial but certainly is not spiritual. A beam of light is immaterial but not spiritual. The feeling of despair is immaterial but not spiritual. Your comments are immaterial but are certainly not spiritual.
Post 43 refers to the immaterial; it says nothing about the spiritual.
Now I know you are not going to understand the difference between immaterial and spiritual and I still don’t want to haggle with you so I will do you a favor and include what I am sure your response will be. Here its is.
“spiritual cannot occupy space. spiritual cannot occupy space. spiritual cannot occupy space. spiritual cannot occupy space. spiritual cannot occupy space. spiritual cannot occupy space. spiritual cannot occupy space. spiritual cannot occupy space.”
And that is the sum total of your argument.
Yppop
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Bahman
Guest
Please read post #43 for the definition of immaterial.
B
Bahman
Guest
Do you agree with definition of spiritual on post #43?
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SilverShadow22
Guest
Bahman. Please. Listen carefully.
Spiritual is not equivalent to immaterial.
Spiritual is a sub-category within the realm of the immaterial.
All house-cats are felines. Not all felines are house-cats. House-cat is a sub-category of feline. Therefore, the two terms are not equivalent.
Sequence is an attribute of change. Change is a state that possesses sequence, but they are not one and the same. Change is a part of Time, and Time is a force that possesses change and sequence in the world as we know it. But they are NOT one and the same.
Observing sequence does not prove you are witnessing time, any more than seeing a feline proves it is a house-cat.
B
Bahman
Guest
Why his body is missed in the tomb if his new body was made of perfect matter?The body He possesses in heaven is not the same as the ones we possess here and now - it is glorified, perfected matter, which of itself is not bound to our concepts of time and space, which is how, after the resurrection but before His ascension, He was able to walk through walls and appear and disappear. This glorification must occur before a body may exist in a realm without time and space (heaven) which is why your ‘contradiction’ isn’t.
There are whole long complicated and very precise explanations for this, and someone will probably oblige, but that’s the essence. The bodies in heaven are nothing like the bodies on earth, but since you already had issues with space, time, and the suspension of both, this probably won’t make sense to you, either.
- Status