How God could be omnipresent if He is spiritual?

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Bahman said:
Why his body is missed in the tomb if his new body was made of perfect matter?
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It was perfected from the pre-existing body, it was not made brand new from nothing. But even if it was, then He would go missing from the tomb as proof that He rose.
 
yppop said:
Bahman,
Your inability to understand the nuances of English makes you look dumber than I know you are. It is illogical to equate immaterial and spiritual even though the spiritual certainly is immaterial.

Yes, all things spiritual are immaterial; in other words the spiritual is “not material”. On the other hand, not all things immaterial are spiritual. A gravitational field is immaterial but certainly is not spiritual. A beam of light is immaterial but not spiritual. The feeling of despair is immaterial but not spiritual. Your comments are immaterial but are certainly not spiritual.

Post 43 refers to the immaterial; it says nothing about the spiritual.

Now I know you are not going to understand the difference between immaterial and spiritual and I still don’t want to haggle with you so I will do you a favor and include what I am sure your response will be. Here its is.
“spiritual cannot occupy space. spiritual cannot occupy space. spiritual cannot occupy space. spiritual cannot occupy space. spiritual cannot occupy space. spiritual cannot occupy space. spiritual cannot occupy space. spiritual cannot occupy space.”

And that is the sum total of your argument.

Yppop
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Material is sum of matter and forces. Spiritual is immaterial but not vice versa.
 
Bahman said:
Material is sum of matter and forces. Spiritual is immaterial but not vice versa.
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The material is not a sum of matter and forces, but would include matter and forces, probably because what underlies them is energy (mass x distance x distance / (time x time)

Force = mass x acceleration
acceleration = change in velocity / time
velocity = distance / time

mass is independent of time and space
by your reasoning: because it is not time nor space, mass cannot exist in time and space

just as mass is pretty much present everywhere in time and space,
the spirit can likewise be everywhere,
because in God, it is the Source of all energy.
 
Bahman said:
There were many claims from individuals to be Gods. You just need to Google it.
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But how many of them proved it?
Bahman said:
Please read post #43 for the definition of immaterial.
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Bahman said:
Do you agree with definition of spiritual on post #43?
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I don’t find a specific definition of “spiritual” in post 43, but the same dictionary defines it this way: “It is pure spirit if it has no dependence on matter either for its existence or for any of its activities.” Sounds about right to me. What’s your point?
 
Bahman said:
Outside time does not exist since time is an illusion. There is nothing outside space.
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IS that so! and do you have any scientific evidence for this “suggestion” How about any philosophic evidence?

I didn’t realize We were in the midst of such a great man that knows all and everything about time and space!

I guess I will defer to your greater intellect then!

Peace!👍
 
A man arguing from within a box that there is nothing outside the box.
 
Bahman said:
Material is sum of matter and forces. Spiritual is immaterial but not vice versa.
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HOw do you know that material is the sum of matter and forces and that there is nothing else involved. Can you please show me any proof for this statement? It is as if you know things for certain that no one else in time and space knows!
 
Aloysium said:
The material is not a sum of matter and forces, but would include matter and forces, probably because what underlies them is energy (mass x distance x distance / (time x time)

Force = mass x acceleration
acceleration = change in velocity / time
velocity = distance / time

mass is independent of time and space
by your reasoning: because it is not time nor space, mass cannot exist in time and space

just as mass is pretty much present everywhere in time and space,
the spirit can likewise be everywhere,
because in God, it is the Source of all energy.
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Matter and force are fundamental but they need space and time for their manifestation. A universe without matter is empty and a universe without force is formless, just a perfect soup of matter. A universe without space is impossible and a universe without time is static.
 
seagal said:
But how many of them proved it?
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None include Jesus. You need to be able to create something from nothing to show that you are God.
seagal said:
I don’t find a specific definition of “spiritual” in post 43, but the same dictionary defines it this way: “It is pure spirit if it has no dependence on matter either for its existence or for any of its activities.” Sounds about right to me. What’s your point?
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How you can possibly distinguish between God and angles if both are spiritual?
 
ProdigalSun said:
HOw do you know that material is the sum of matter and forces and that there is nothing else involved.
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I have a PhD in physics. I study particle physics.
ProdigalSun said:
Can you please show me any proof for this statement? It is as if you know things for certain that no one else in time and space knows!
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We cannot prove this but we have strong evidence that material world is made of particle and force. Particle move inside space and interact with each other through forces.
 
Bahman said:
I have a PhD in physics. I study particle physics.

We cannot prove this but we have strong evidence that material world is made of particle and force. Particle move inside space and interact with each other through forces.
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The most important question he asked is: “…and that there is nothing else involved…”

It took hundreds to thousands of years to figure out many aspects of physics. We knew Gravity but not atoms… then we knew atoms but not subatomics etc… So I think the main point you miss is that your presumptions are based on the idea that “we” have the totality of scientific discoveries already made. I would contend we will keep discovering O.o
 
Bahman said:
How do you answer to OP? To me what you offer as the definition spiritual is definition nothingness.
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OP: “A spiritual being cannot occupy any space. How could God then be omnipresent?”

As the immanent cause and sustainer of creatures, yet transcending the limitations of actual and possible space, and not circumscribed or measured or divided by any spatial relations.

Space, like time, is one of the measures of the finite, and as by the attribute of eternity, we describe God’s transcendence of all temporal limitations, so by the attribute of immensity we express His transcendent relation to space. There is this difference, however, to be noted between eternity and immensity, that the positive aspect of the latter is more easily realized by us, and is sometimes spoken of, under the name of omnipresence, or ubiquity, as if it were a distinct attribute. Divine immensity means on the one hand that God is necessarily present everywhere in space as the immanent cause and sustainer of creatures, and on the other hand that He transcends the limitations of actual and possible space, and cannot be circumscribed or measured or divided by any spatial relations. To say that God is immense is only another way of saying that He is both immanent and transcendent in the sense already explained. As some one has metaphorically and paradoxically expressed it, “God’s centre is everywhere, His circumference nowhere.”

That God is not subject to spatial limitations follows from His infinite simplicity; and that He is truly present in every place or thing — that He is omnipresent or ubiquitous — follows from the fact that He is the cause and ground of all reality. According to our finite manner of thinking we conceive this presence of God in things spatial as being primarily a presence of power and operation — immediate Divine efficiency being required to sustain created beings in existence and to enable them to act; but, as every kind of Divine action ad extra is really identical with the Divine nature or essence, it follows that God is really present everywhere in creation not merely per virtuten et operationem, but per essentiam. In other words God Himself, or the Divine nature, is in immediate contact with, or immanent in, every creature — conserving it in being and enabling it to act. But while insisting on this truth we must, if we would avoid contradiction, reject every form of the pantheistic hypothesis. While emphasizing Divine immanence we must not overlook Divine transcendence.

Toner, P. (1909). The Nature and Attributes of God. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. newadvent.org/cathen/06612a.htm
 
Bahman said:
I have a PhD in physics. I study particle physics.
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Ah Bahman just the guy I am looking for.
Could you please explain to me just what is the nature of the data that particle physicists have observed that makes them believe they have discovered the Higg’s particle?
We cannot prove this but we have strong evidence that material world is made of particle and force. Particle move inside space and interact with each other through forces.
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Also:
  1. What is the strong evidence you refer to?
  2. Inside of what space are are particles moving? Are you referring to the space inside the atom or the nucleus?
  3. Which equations define the interacting forces you are referring to?
I know these questions may be beyond the scope of this discussion, but I am certain any particle physicists with a PhD would have no trouble humoring me with a couple of succinct answers.
Thank you.
Yppop.
 
Bahman said:
None include Jesus. You need to be able to create something from nothing to show that you are God.
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I am not going to go into all the ways that Jesus showed that he is God. That’s a whole different discussion.
How you can possibly distinguish between God and angles if both are spiritual?
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They are different beings. I don’t know what you imagine a spiritual being is.
 
Bahman said:
Originally Posted by Aloysium
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And, a universe that does not exist, does not exist.
Existence is everywhere and the Cause of that existence is . . .

BTW: You missed the point I was making entirely; and your response is not one that I would expect from someone who has put in the time and effort to earn a PhD in Physics. What’s up with that? Given your stated credentials, I don’t know what to think.
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Bahman said:
So in your opinion is that there is inner layer so called spiritual in any thing we call material? If it is so, why then we don’t spiritual world?
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That is gibberish. No, I am not saying that there is an inner spiritual layer. I have no idea what your second question could be intended to mean. Can you address the substance of my comment in regards to your original post? A spirit is “in” objects that it affects, powers, animated, etc. There is no logical contradiction in supposing that an omnipotent spiritual being could affect more than one material thing. Therefore, your first statement that “A spiritual being cannot occupy any space” is utterly irrelevant to God’s omnipresence. This entire thread is based off semantics and (deliberate?) misunderstanding of words.
 
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