How is 2 Maccabees 12:43-46 evidence for Purgatory?

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Nathan_Wagar said:
“Once again we are in agreement. I do not believe however we should think. “well God gave me Cancer as my cross to bear.” That Is bad theology. A cross to bear is something you take up willingly. (that cross to bear line is a pet peave of mine) Does God give sickness? I have never heard of the Holy Flu or Heavenly Pox yet. Does he ALLOW it? YES that is the difference because of our fallen sin nature.”

“There are some that it is a faith alone NO WORKS. while others know instinctively much like the Roman Catholics that I have run into that your works are a natural result of your faith.”

Response:
I would say that it is due to my experience as a Church Hopping Protestant thanks to Mom, and the fact that my Dad lost his faith over the very same issue, and I have many Protestant friends I have brought close to the Catholic faith.
My response is : at least they are going somewhere!

Over and over, across denominational lines, people are told they are suffering because they don’t have enough faith. They think “well of course I have faith, God must be ignoring me.” Or worse yet “God isn’t real.” If only they realized the Catholic understanding of suffering; it truly works wonders. That’s what made Mother Theresa so special.
True some preachers do espouse that lousy theology, but they are in a minority.

I was wrong, however, to say 99%, it’s one of my little catch-phrases I need to get rid of.
I also am trying to get rid of “I am having a bad day” that is an insult to God because the Bible says, “this is the day the Lord has made I will rejoice and be glad in it.” I am trying to say, "things are not going my way."

Evangelicals are very fond of the idea of eternal assurance however, and I would say there’s quite a few of them Padrej…
So you think that a Catholic is not sure that they have a place in Heaven. I think they may have a different terminology for it.

Some baptists I have met actually believe in “backsliding,” so that probably wasn’t the best example because even they are fractured. Honestly it can be so difficult conversing with you guys because I have to learn your denominational theology first. At least the Reformed think I’m on par with a cultist, so I know exactly where I and the Virgin Mary stand. Bad Joke.
HAD to bring the Baptists into this didn’t you. “Backsliding” is mentioned in scripture and is used to describe a state where a saved person slips back into the old ways of the world. (to keep it simple)

And regardless of whether you think God gave you the cross or whether it’s something God allowed to happen to you (I agree with your statement however), it doesn’t really change the fact that as a Christian, it IS your cross to bear, cancer notwithstanding.

Another minor quibble, is that our good works are not a natural result of our faith. That would mean “saving faith.” Our good works are a result of GRACE, and we can choose not to cooperate with that grace. If you start making destinctions between “faith” and “saving faith,” then you fall right back into the trap of not knowing whether or not your faith is saving faith or not, because only God can judge the quality of faith to begin with.
Ok we can quibble. I think here it is a matter of semantics.

Saving faith is a term used nowhere in the Bible. James 2:24, where many Protestants get the concept of saving faith (out of necessity) goes on later in the same letter to show all the struggles you must face that would seem to HAMPER good works.
1 Peter 3: 21 “Baptism now saves you” Written by Peter, the founder of the Church Catholic. Are you going to Are now with St. Peter to whom it was said, “upon this rock I will build my church” when it comes to being saved? This is the verse that many Protestant start to hang the “saving faith” on because of Baptism being your profession and the outward sign.
As well as the caveat that NOT doing good works is a sin too. James doesn’t demonstrate faith as a “saving faith” he shows faith as just that: faith. Imperfect in all cases, judged through the eyes of Grace because we responded to that grace. It’s a faith that works must be added onto by cooperating with that grace. Faith is not a switch that starts the conveyer belt of good works.
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So James did not say, “I’ll show you my faith by my works.” (James 2:18) IF you tie the Epistle of James with other passages on “works” like 1 Thes. 1:3, Hebrews 6:10, Rev. 14:13 When tied with those verse James is not the Epistle of straw that Martin Luther made it out to be.
 
Randy_Carson said:
Can you imagine the howls from the non-Catholic camp if the Pope did such a thing?
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Wouldn’t that be a real test of Papal Infalability?? 😉
If my memory serve me the last time a Pope spoke ex cathedra was on the assumption of Mary. So it has been a while.
 
Ooooh, salivating at the prospect of a debate on justification…

The comment on the Baptists was to point out that they do not believe in eternal assurance, which I had thought is what you said. It was not to say that “backsliding” isnt Scripture. Catholics believe it is too. Eternal assurance does not seem to be remotely Scriptural.
 
Nathan_Wagar said:
Ooooh, salivating at the prospect of a debate on justification…

The comment on the Baptists was to point out that they do not believe in eternal assurance, which I had thought is what you said. It was not to say that “backsliding” isnt Scripture. Catholics believe it is too. Eternal assurance does not seem to be remotely Scriptural.
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The problem is depending on what flavor of Protestant you are you can make scripture say what you want it to say. I mean if you wanted to you could justify driving a Honda because the Book of Acts says that the apostles “were together in one accord.” 😃

as to “Justification” I do not think there is a Protestant that would disagree with any of the following points from the Catholic Catechism so I hardly think it is debatable
Part 1, Section 1, Chapter 3, Article 1, SubSection 3, Heading 5

161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation. 42 “Since “without faith it is impossible to please [God]” and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life ‘But he who endures to the end.’”]

Part 1, Section 2, Chapter 2, Article 5, Paragraph 2, SubSection 3

651 “If Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain.” 520 The Resurrection above all constitutes the confirmation of all Christ’s works and teachings. All truths, even those most inaccessible to human reason, find their justification if Christ by his Resurrection has given the definitive proof of his divine authority, which he had promised.

Part 1, Section 2, Chapter 2, Article 5, Paragraph 2, SubSection 3

658 Christ, “the first-born from the dead” (Col 1:18), is the principle of our own resurrection, even now by the justification of our souls (cf. Rom 6:4), and one day by the new life he will impart to our bodies (cf.: Rom 8:11).

Part 1, Section 2, Chapter 3, Article 10, SubSection 1

977 Our Lord tied the forgiveness of sins to faith and Baptism: “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation. He who believes and is baptized will be saved.” 521 Baptism is the first and chief sacrament of forgiveness of sins because it unites us with Christ, who died for our sins and rose for our justification, so that “we too might walk in newness of life.” 522

Part 1, Section 2, Chapter 3, Article 10, SubSection 2

987 “In the forgiveness of sins, both priests and sacraments are instruments which our Lord Jesus Christ, the only author and liberal giver of salvation, wills to use in order to efface our sins and give us the grace of justification” (Roman Catechism, I, 11, 6).

Part 2, Section 2, Chapter 1, Article 1, SubSection 7, Heading 2

1266 The Most Holy Trinity gives the baptized sanctifying grace, the grace of justification:

Part 3, Section 1, Chapter 3, Article 2, SubSection 1

1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus’ proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” 38 Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man. 39

Part 3, Section 1, Chapter 3, Article 2, SubSection 1

1990 Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God’s merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals.

Part 3, Section 1, Chapter 3, Article 2, SubSection 1

1991 Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God’s righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ. Righteousness (or “justice”) here means the rectitude of divine love. With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted us.

Part 3, Section 1, Chapter 3, Article 2, SubSection 1

1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life: 40
Code: 
But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus. 41
Part 3, Section 1, Chapter 3, Article 2, SubSection 1

1994 Justification is the most excellent work of God’s love made manifest in Christ Jesus and granted by the Holy Spirit. It is the opinion of St. Augustine that “the justification of the wicked is a greater work than the creation of heaven and earth,” because “heaven and earth will pass away but the salvation and justification of the elect . . . will not pass away.” 43 He holds also that the justification of sinners surpasses the creation of the angels in justice, in that it bears witness to a greater mercy.

Part 3, Section 1, Chapter 3, Article 2, SubSection 2

1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life. 46

Part 3, Section 1, Chapter 3, Article 2, SubSection 4

2018 Like conversion, justification has two aspects. Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, and so accepts forgiveness and righteousness from on high.

Part 3, Section 1, Chapter 3, Article 2, SubSection 4

2019 Justification includes the remission of sins, sanctification, and the renewal of the inner man.

Part 3, Section 1, Chapter 3, Article 2, SubSection 4

2020 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ. It is granted us through Baptism. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who justifies us. It has for its goal the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life. It is the most excellent work of God’s mercy.
 
Padrej said:
The problem is depending on what flavor of Protestant you are you can make scripture say what you want it to say. I mean if you wanted to you could justify driving a Honda because the Book of Acts says that the apostles “were together in one accord.” 😃
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Nice illustration of the need for an authoritative interpretation of Scripture PadreJ, thanks!
 
Geez Padrej, I wasn’t expecting the “accord” post. Talk about a bad time to be drinking mountain dew…
 
Nathan_Wagar said:
Sooo…um… Padrej…When you becoming Catholic? 👍
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You might say that I like being where I am at right now. (Anglican- Catholic Light all the sins half the guilt)😃
Seriously I am and Anglican Bishop (By Anglican I mean Traditional Episcopal). And I have worked ecumenically with the local Catholic Cardinal and other clergy and on a couple of occasions con-celebrated mass with them. (Actually one of my lines of apostolic succession come from the Roman Catholic church from a Roman Catholic bishop: ruling from the Vatican on this- “valid but irregular”)
It is not that I do not believe in the paths and ways of the catechism, I actually served an Anglican Parish that used the Catholic Catechism rather than the catechism of the Prayer book, so I got fairly familiar with it.
Many of the points of the Catechism on justification, salvation, grace, and the like I as well as many protestants would agree with. There are still a few sticking points that I could not deal with.
I don’t want to blow my own horn here , but the last funeral I did one gentleman came up to me and said, “I wish we had you in our church, you are far more compassionate than the priest we have at our Roman Catholic parish.” Granted there are many Priests who are VERY compassionate, but I FEEL that they serve such large congregations that they loose some of the compassion and it becomes a ritual. ( would say the same BTW for Protestant ministers too) So I will continue to bloom where God has planted me so far. I hope that answered your question.:cool:
 
Padrej said:
You might say that I like being where I am at right now. (Anglican- Catholic Light all the sins half the guilt)😃
Seriously I am and Anglican Bishop (By Anglican I mean Traditional Episcopal). And I have worked ecumenically with the local Catholic Cardinal and other clergy and on a couple of occasions con-celebrated mass with them. (Actually one of my lines of apostolic succession come from the Roman Catholic church from a Roman Catholic bishop: ruling from the Vatican on this- “valid but irregular”)
It is not that I do not believe in the paths and ways of the catechism, I actually served an Anglican Parish that used the Catholic Catechism rather than the catechism of the Prayer book, so I got fairly familiar with it.
Many of the points of the Catechism on justification, salvation, grace, and the like I as well as many protestants would agree with. There are still a few sticking points that I could not deal with.
I don’t want to blow my own horn here , but the last funeral I did one gentleman came up to me and said, “I wish we had you in our church, you are far more compassionate than the priest we have at our Roman Catholic parish.” Granted there are many Priests who are VERY compassionate, but I FEEL that they serve such large congregations that they loose some of the compassion and it becomes a ritual. ( would say the same BTW for Protestant ministers too) So I will continue to bloom where God has planted me so far. I hope that answered your question.:cool:
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padrej:
All I can say is God Bless you and thank you for “talking” with me. I have learned much
from you. You will always be in my prayers. May you continue to “bloom” profusely
wherever God plants you.

Leonard

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
 
God gave me a public revelation, Padrej (BAD JOKE). He wants you to become Catholic.

Catholic-lite? I mean come on, how many people do you see drinking coke zero?

Besides, we can discuss the parts that stick in your craw 🙂
 
Nathan_Wagar said:
God gave me a public revelation, Padrej (BAD JOKE). He wants you to become Catholic.

Catholic-lite? I mean come on, how many people do you see drinking coke zero?

Besides, we can discuss the parts that stick in your craw 🙂
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I thought Catholics only believed that certain FEW persons received “revelations” from God and then it is only under careful scrutiny.😊

I Know Catholic Lite is an OLD joke and ready for the bone yard.
so lets get back to what this thread is about.

We all agree no unclean thing can go into heaven hence the Catholic belief in Purgatory because there needs to be a place to “purge” away our spots.

Now We have some citing that David had to pay for his sin with Bathsheba even though he was forgiven. I can agree to this. But when I have been carefully looking into scripture when God pronounced the punishment on David for this, it was only going to last for his lifetime and onto his family while he was living. It does not mention after he dies. God deals with Solomon separately. Pray tell me how this ties in.

Now I went to a funeral and the priest said something germane to this discussion in regard to the dead person. He quoted from Exodus 31: 19 “I will be gracious on whom I will be gracious and have compassion on whom I will have compassion.” Talk about blowing me out of the water in the conversation of Purgatory, THERE WAS NONE. All he spoke of was Heaven and his (the dead person) being there. My question is… Being that this subject seems be avoided in some Catholic circles as far as teaching, I am wondering if this going to go by the wayside eventually. In fact the last 5 Catholic funerals I have gone to mentioned Nothing of Purgatory only of the soul of the person being in heaven. If you didn’t know that it was a Catholic funeral you would think it was a Protestant minister preaching.
Consider this: The Catechism is replete with more sections on justification than I even posted so I wonder if be a matter of time before some “protestant thinking” or equal to it will be the prevalent “teachings.”** I am not saying that Purgatory will be dropped from the catechism** just not required as belief eventually. Just a question to mill around if priests are not mentioning this at funerals any more.
 
Padrej said:
I thought Catholics only believed that certain FEW persons received “revelations” from God and then it is only under careful scrutiny.😊

We all agree no unclean thing can go into heaven hence the Catholic belief in Purgatory because Consider this: The Catechism is replete with more sections on justification than I even posted so I wonder if be a matter of time before some “protestant thinking” or equal to it will be the prevalent “teachings.”** I am not saying that Purgatory will be dropped from the catechism** just not required as belief eventually. Just a question to mill around if priests are not mentioning this at funerals any more.
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Maybe they were just be politically correct & trying not to offend the relatives…:confused:
 
This you may find interesting on unity between Catholics and Protestants. A meeting was Held in Chicago Oct. 1 between the Lutherans, Methodists and Catholics on the issue of “justification by faith.”
This is what was agreed to by The Cardinals present and Protestant bishops present.
“Together we confess: By grace alone, in faith in Christ’s saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping us and calling us to good works.”
Catholics, and later Methodists, also emphasized the free will of human beings to accept or reject God’s gift, and the responsibility of believers to do works of piety and mercy.
This all the more makes me wonder with Cardinal Francis George, President of the US conference of Catholic bishops involved if this is going to bring down what has been dividing us since the 16th century?

Here is the link to a full article on the event.
umc.org/site/apps/nlnet/content3.aspx?c=lwL4KnN1LtH&b=2789393&ct=7543499
 
holy_moly said:
Maybe they were just be politically correct & trying not to offend the relatives…:confused:
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COME ON have you ever known known the Catholic church to truly go against its own doctrines to be “politically correct?” You might find the post on Protestant and Catholic unity (Justification by faith) I just put up a possible explanation as to the direction the church is heading. It certainly would not be going against most of the catechism.
 
Padrej said:
NO That verse implies that revelation is an ongoing process as well as passages of the Prophet Joel
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Hang on…let’s not misunderstand one another.

You do agree that the canon is closed and that there will be no more PUBLIC revelation which is binding on the consciences of all believers.

Right? 🤷
 
Padrej said:
Wouldn’t that be a real test of Papal Infalability?? 😉
If my memory serve me the last time a Pope spoke ex cathedra was on the assumption of Mary. So it has been a while.
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And only a few times in history overall.

But it is a lightning rod, nonetheless.
 
Padrej, I pray for unification every day, at the adoration chapel, right after my Jujitsu classes 🙂

The reason why no priest mentions it is that it isn’t a very pleasant thought. Sort of like hell; let’s say you had a grandpa that died and was a pagan and rejected Christ, are you going to say he probably is smoking camels with Hitler? No.

And besides, Purgatory is just another step of God’s love, as far as I’m concerned. God knows I can’t seem to help myself, and Im sure my wife would agree.

I think of it as Dad hosing me off on the front porch before Sunday dinner. Maybe people don’t want to believe in purgatory. Our culture rarely likes to think of ugly things like “consequences” and “purification.” They want fast-food grace. Holiness is a lost concept. The fact is, the Church believes in it though. And put in its proper context, I see no reason why it can’t be talked about at a funeral, except that it’s on the way to heaven anyway so nobody really wants to here the intricacies of theology when gram passed away.
 
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