How is one regenerated?

[elvisman]

In the world, the Commandment’s have always spoke of God’s perfect righteousness in that all men are guilty before Him. The commands to Israel in Leviticus 18:5 “Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them” and by Jesus to the rich ruler "But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.” is suppose to bring about through they’re rule over all mankind a dependence on God’s mercy knowing that all fall short. They were never meant as a “ladder to heaven” that in trying to do them even through as you say “cooperating with grace” a man could be Holy before a Righteous God.

So in the world we say “Do Them” and Jesus says “Do Them” in hope of one falling off the ladder into the loving arms of Jesus Christ. Elvisman, Jesus Christ is not a hand under your ladder that catches your foot when you miss one of the rings in your ladder. But Jesus Christ is the end of climbing the ladder for He is the ladder. In Him we live and have our whole being and through Him having already fulfilled all the rigid requirements of the law, we are solely and wholly depended on Him in all things. He is the representation of God’s mercy to all mankind and in that mercy we now live.

Who said the commandments were a ladder to heaven? JESUS is our only way to heaven. Unfortunately, your idea of the mercy of God is not Biblical. God isn’t there to carry us all the way without us staying in his arms. We have to come to him in repentance.

The price Jesus paid for our sins REDEEMED us - paid for us. He paid the price for what we deserve - eternal punishment. However, unless we accept his grace, pick up our cross daily and persevere to the wend - we are NOT saved. THAT is the truth of Christianity - the truth of the Bible.

Following the commandments is HOW we persevere and God’s grace is the MEANS by which we do it - and that is how we cooperate with God.

 

[Rocket_Man]

Your above statement ignores Jesus’ grace working in us. Catholics know that following the Commandments merely of our own power is fruitless and impossible. Jesus knew it was impossible which is why He gives us His sacraments, His priesthood, and His Church.

Jesus knew what we truly needed was mercy and was the fulfillment of the Law. God has thrown out righteousness by the Commandment as the means and opted for salvation through His mercy alone.

Jesus, being the Word of God, is the Commandments, hence He tells the rich man, “if you wish to have life, follow the Commandments.” Jesus did not scoff at the rich man and tell him, “there’s no way you can follow the Commandments, so just give up and accept me as your Lord and Savior.”

Him being the complete representation of God’s mercy lives forever more as the heavenly High Priest. The Commandment speaks of both judgment and mercy, judgment for those that work the law and mercy for those that rest in Christ’s work. In order for one to accept they first must be judged a sinner and unworthy of any merit towards heaven.

No, Jesus just led the man further appealing to what He knew the man least wanted to sacrifice, “sell all that you have to the poor, and then follow Me.”

When Jesus heard the young ruler say “All these have I kept from my youth” He knew that the man was a liar and truth was not in him. The Commandment had not produced in the heart of the young man the real intent. He hadn’t been judged by the righteousness of the Law and was still seeking to work them. Jesus doesn’t “further appeal” as you say but He clarifies what the Commandment was actually suppose to produce, a broken and contrite heart of one seeking mercy. For in the heart of one seeking mercy you have the recognition of others needing mercy as in the case of the Samaritan caring for the beaten man alongside the road. Jesus wasn’t commanding the rich man to sell all that He had so he could get to heaven but He was stressing to the rich man that had he followed the Commandments as they were intended to be understood, that he already would have been following Christ and asking for mercy rather than asking what He must still do to inherit internal life.

Jesus is the ladder, and He is the hand under the ladder, and He is the one holding the top of the ladder. Jesus is the one above us pulling us up the ladder and the one below us pushing us up the ladder. Jesus by His grace He gives us in Baptism, Confirmation, and the Eucharist, sets us free from our sins to follow His commandments, and when we fall His love and mercy in confession sets us free from our shame when we fail.

There is no more ladder to climb. Jesus is the ladder and by His grace He purges our sin from our desire and molds us into His likeness. We follow the call of the true Shepard and hear not the voice of any other. He is the head of the Church which is His Body, heart’s that are being made perfect, not through observance of sacraments, but perfect because He is perfect.

 

[Rocket_Man]

**Who **said the commandments were a ladder to heaven? JESUS is our only way to heaven. Unfortunately, your idea of the mercy of God is not Biblical. God isn’t there to carry us all the way without us staying in his arms. We have to come to him in repentance.

Elvisman, God has poured out His love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom He has given us. Even the love we have for Him comes from Him. We were His enemies, we couldn’t ever love God on our own. We weren’t able to stay in His arms before or even come to Him unless He called and most certainly can’t even now by our own desire. His preserving is a gift and our will to come to Him for repentance is a gift. God is most certainly there to carry us all the way.

The price Jesus paid for our sins REDEEMED us - paid for us. He paid the price for what we deserve - eternal punishment. However, unless we accept his grace, pick up our cross daily and persevere to the wend - we are NOT saved. THAT is the truth of Christianity - the truth of the Bible.

Following the commandments is HOW we persevere and God’s grace is the MEANS by which we do it - and that is how we cooperate with God.

We have no ability to keep the commandments perfectly and if you mean He freely purges the desire from us to sin and even the cooperation is a free gift and the result of a changed will then I agree. But I can’t agree if you mean that somehow a man can maneuver in his own power the cooperation and use it alongside of grace to abstain from sin.

 

[elvisman]

Elvisman, God has poured out His love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom He has given us. Even the love we have for Him comes from Him. We were His enemies, we couldn’t ever love God on our own. We weren’t able to stay in His arms before or even come to Him unless He called and most certainly can’t even now by our own desire. His preserving is a gift and our will to come to Him for repentance is a gift. God is most certainly there to carry us all the way.

Yes, he WILL carry us - if we don’t ultimately leavce his arms.

We have no ability to keep the commandments perfectly and if you mean He freely purges the desire from us to sin and even the cooperation is a free gift and the result of a changed will then I agree. But I can’t agree if you mean that somehow a man can maneuver in his own power the cooperation and use it alongside of grace to abstain from sin.

**That is about the most arrogant and prideful thing I’ve ever heard - but then again, so is the whole of Calvinism.

Our proclivity towards sin (concupiscence) is something that will never be vanquished until we are made perfect in heaven. THAT is why we need constant repentance - because we SIN. Even Paul said that he was a wretched sinner and NEVER claimed to be free of the deisre for it:

---

1 Tim. 1:15-16
"Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life."

Your arrogance is astounding. But - like I said - Calvinism at its very core is nothing but arrogance and rebellion.

 

[guanophore]

How can a person who was baptized as an infant in the CC, confirmed through the laying of hands of the diocese bishop, received the communion sacrament, received eighteen years of catholic education, served continuously as an alter boy, and gone through the ritual of confession before a priest, not know Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior? Aren’t these graces of knowing Him to have been bestowed upon the person in the sacraments? (Absolutely zero regeneration in his lifestyle)…

This is the experience of many of us, Rocket. For me, it had to do with the disposition of my heart. The sacramental life is efficacious only for those who are properly disposed. I practiced a form of Godliness without the power thereof.

Yet, having lead a sinful lifestyle and in despair he picked up a “Romans Road” pamphlet and turned to night after night and day after day of bible reading and while doing so, understood the Gospel as it was interpreted to him in the heart through the reading and prayer that went along with it, that Jesus Christ was real and offered the promise of forgiveness and eternal life… and having acknowledged Christ as Savior with repentance and acceptance of  the Gospel invitation made evident through a life style change followed with years of real regeneration.

Your experience is not at all uncommon. Although not everyone has a powerful conversion expereince, many of us have, and it has also happened throughout history, long before there was “protestantism”.

How can this person reconcile the CC teaching of regeneration through the sacrament he supposedly received in childhood with the real regeneration he experienced later as an adult?

I would think this would be essential to do so. I confess that it took many years and a lot of study. It seems that you are making assumptions that a regenerate person does not walk according to the world, the flesh, and the devil. I do agree that this is not the intention of Christ, but it is most certainly possible for a person who has been regenerated to fall from grace, and fail to live according to the Gift they were given.

Don’t he have to throw one away which was a very deep and personal experience based on private reading of the Bible and exchange it for something that didn’t happen and ordained by traditions of men?

Of course one should never “throw away” private expereinces of consecration, conversion and commitment. That does not invalidate all that God did in you to prepare you for that day. You are also making the erroneous assumption that what you followed was “traditions of men”. The Teaching of the Apostles is from God, not from men. There are two kinds of traditions, one is human (customs) the other is Sacred (from God). While there is nothing inherintly wrong with human traditions, they must never interfere with the Word of God.

What a puzzle this is because he has experienced both the Catholic form of regeneration through infant baptism and also the sacrament of penance through a priest as a youth. But he has experienced real regeneration through real penance later in life without a priest.

You seem to be using your feelings as a standard for what is “real”. You are assuming that your experiential knowledge is what cause “reality” in these spiritual areas. What God says is true, whether it is part of your felt experience or not.

His youthful experiences were never sufficient to bend away from sin to coincide with the very reason Christ Jesus came into the world, to take away sin. Yet in the later case, the regeneration was evident, as the turning away from several sinful vices was manifested in his daily living.

That person is me!

I thank God for the salvation of your soul Rocket. Reconciling your personal experiences with the Teaching of the Apostles will be in my prayers.

 

[guanophore]

Normally in nature, when you water something it springs into life, not whithers. If regeneration was present in infant baptism and included the light of knowledge of Christ, than why did it take 29 years to know Him?

clearly you don’t seem to have much horticultural experience.

Some seeds take a very long time to come to fruition.Also, you are assuming that your baptism was followed by “the light and knowledge of Christ”. If your Catholic education was anything like mine, then you may have suffered a great deal of indifference, poor role models, and erroneous teaching.

Luke.11
[34] Your eye is the lamp of your body; when your eye is sound, your whole body is full of light; but when it is not sound, your body is full of darkness.

When our perceptions are not accurate, then we live in darkness. What I was given to understand about the light and knowledge of Christ was not sound.

As you recall from the parable of the seeds, the seeds that bore fruit were the ones that fell into good earth. If the soil of our hearts is not tilled, then the weeds will choke the seed.

The lack of education was horrible not only in the school but also in the CC.

Yes, I had a similar abysmal experience.

Whom having the claim to hold the truth it is then also unforgiving.

The CC church claims to uphold the moral laws, yet doesn’t exercise disipline among legislators who send messages otherwise such as those voting for homosexuality and abortion rights.

We can’t make assumptions about what their pastors or bishops have said or done with them. I agree, it is a regrettable scandal. What would you like to see happen?

For me anyway, knowing masses of Catholics who frequent the drinking establishments, engage in premarital sex, and live a life of lawlessness, the participation in the sacraments are meaningless.

Much worse than meaningless, actually. Those who receive after behaving in such a manner (except in the case of confession) eat and drink condemnation upon themselves.

Not that I’m judging by looking at those below Moses under the mountain but it would by appearance seem that the Mormons live a more righteous life than Catholics.

Yes, I have met many devout MOrmons that are more catholically behaved than those who claim to be Catholic.

Yet only the Catholics claims regeneration at infant baptism.

This is not true.

If their were any instruction along the way, I was not interested in it cause I did not know God or have any desire to learn of Him. This isn't a attititude from somebody whom was suppose to have been regenerated.

The young man that took his inheritance and squandered it, ending up in a pig stye, was no less a son.

Never did anything for me. Only time it did was when I knew who Jesus Christ was and I fell on my knees before Him on my bedroom floor. Why go the agent when the you got the phone number of the King sown in your heart.

You seem to be looking for justifications not to be part of the Church into which God allowed you to be baptized.

The Spirit has yet to draw me or ever lead me to pickup a Catechism of the Catholic Church.

I pray you will come to this point, and learn to appreciate your birthright.

One of those is buying Masses for those that have passed on.

I can understand why it might have the appearance of such. However, the laborer is worthy of his wages. Priests survive on our tithes. No sacrament will be withheld from those who cannot support the ministry, but neither is it wrong to expect the ox to eat a little of the grain he treads.

 

[OneAugustKnight]

How can a person who was baptized as an infant in the CC, confirmed through the laying of hands of the diocese bishop, received the communion sacrament, received eighteen years of catholic education, served continuously as an alter boy, and gone through the ritual of confession before a priest, not know Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior? Aren’t these graces of knowing Him to have been bestowed upon the person in the sacraments? (Absolutely zero regeneration in his lifestyle)… Yet, having lead a sinful lifestyle and in despair he picked up a “Romans Road” pamphlet and turned to night after night and day after day of bible reading and while doing so, understood the Gospel as it was interpreted to him in the heart through the reading and prayer that went along with it, that Jesus Christ was real and offered the promise of forgiveness and eternal life… and having acknowledged Christ as Savior with repentance and acceptance of the Gospel invitation made evident through a life style change followed with years of real regeneration. How can this person reconcile the CC teaching of regeneration through the sacrament he supposedly received in childhood with the real regeneration he experienced later as an adult? Don’t he have to throw one away which was a very deep and personal experience based on private reading of the Bible and exchange it for something that didn’t happen and ordained by traditions of men?

What a puzzle this is because he has experienced both the Catholic form of regeneration through infant baptism and also the sacrament of penance through a priest as a youth. But he has experienced real regeneration through real penance later in life without a priest. His youthful experiences were never sufficient to bend away from sin to coincide with the very reason Christ Jesus came into the world, to take away sin. Yet in the later case, the regeneration was evident, as the turning away from several sinful vices was manifested in his daily living.

That person is me!

I know a person who went through a similar experience growing up, but instead of a Romans Road pamphlet he picked up a Qu’ran. He experienced a deep personal conversion and turned away from sin and his virtues are manifested in daily living. Is his personal experience the truth because it is real to him?

 

[Rocket_Man]

I know a person who went through a similar experience growing up, but instead of a Romans Road pamphlet he picked up a Qu’ran. He experienced a deep personal conversion and turned away from sin and his virtues are manifested in daily living. Is his personal experience the truth because it is real to him?

I also know of a sinful woman who went through a similar experience. I know her so well that I can still hear her heart crying out to her Lord and Savior when I read her story.

Luke 7:37-38
“And, behold, a woman in the city, which was a sinner, when she knew that Jesus sat at meat in the Pharisee’s house, brought an alabaster box of ointment, And stood at his feet behind him weeping, and began to wash his feet with tears, and did wipe them with the hairs of her head, and kissed his feet, and anointed them with the ointment.”

 

[Rocket_Man]

Many who claim to be Catholic do not follow the Teachings of the Church.

This is at the heart of the infant baptism issue because these also were to have received the “light and knowledge of Christ” in the church sacrament like me. Are you also going to try to lay blame on inadequate role models, catechizes, parents, or other external influences that do not convert the heart when it truly Christ alone that transforms? Quite honestly, in past when I have said the words “Jesus Christ” to any of these Catholics they would flee like the wind. This is not the heart of people that have been regenerated. In Romans 5:5 it says the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost. How come these people don’t want anything to do with Him? I tell you why, they are still His enemy.

 

[Rocket_Man]

Yes, he WILL carry us - if we don’t ultimately leavce his arms.

**That is about the most *arrogant ***and prideful thing I’ve ever heard - but then again, so is the whole of Calvinism.

Our proclivity towards sin (concupiscence) is something that will never be vanquished until we are made perfect in heaven. THAT is why we need constant repentance - because we SIN. Even Paul said that he was a wretched sinner and NEVER claimed to be free of the deisre for it:

---

1 Tim. 1:15-16
"Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life."

Your arrogance is astounding. But - like I said - Calvinism at its very core is nothing but arrogance and rebellion.

Elvisman, I sincerely do not get your point or accusation. Try again please with more explanation.

 

[OneAugustKnight]

I also know of a sinful woman who went through a similar experience. I know her so well that I can still hear her heart crying out to her Lord and Savior when I read her story.

Luke 7:37-38
“And, behold, a woman in the city, which was a sinner, when she knew that Jesus sat at meat in the Pharisee’s house, brought an alabaster box of ointment, And stood at his feet behind him weeping, and began to wash his feet with tears, and did wipe them with the hairs of her head, and kissed his feet, and anointed them with the ointment.”

So what the Muslim man experienced, what you experienced, and what the sinful woman experienced were all similar emotionally. Does this make all three experiences equally good and true?

 

[Rocket_Man]

So what the Muslim man experienced, what you experienced, and what the sinful woman experienced were all similar emotionally. Does this make all three experiences equally good and true?

Should we include the Marian Apparitions?

 

[elvisman]

Should we include the Marian Apparitions?

**Belief in Marian apparitions are not necessary for the regeneration of one’s soul. ****You are simply taking a cheap shot.

Remember, Rocket - you’re the one who started this thread. Let’s not get into a hissy fit when somebody questions your motives.

How about just answering the question OneAugustKnight posed . . .

 

[Rocket_Man]

Belief in Marian apparitions are not necessary for the regeneration of one’s soul. **You are simply taking a *cheap ***shot.

**Remember, Rocket **- you’re the one who started this thread. Let’s not get into a hissy fit when somebody questions your motives.

How about just answering the question OneAugustKnight posed . . .

I tested the Scriptures by confirming what they declared, that Jesus Christ was the Son of the Living God when I was twenty nine years old. On one of these days there was a lunar eclipse scheduled in the same afternoon. I had always wondered why the sun was darkened when Christ died and had a curiosity if the creation was revealing the answer. I prayed that He would show me His truth in the event. I then left my office and drove off to a quiet spot away from the city so that I could watch the eclipse hoping to learn something. I watched it come and I watched it go but nothing was revealed and drove back to work somewhat disappointed. I then came into my office and sat down reaching for a pen. That is when I noticed that in the center of the palm of my hand there was big spot stained by red ink. I then looked at my left palm and it also had been blotted red. And I tell you the truth that I then proceeded to remove my dress shirt and there on my side of my stomach was the stain of red ink. It was then I heard the voice that said that “My wisdom is in My mercy”. Tears ran from my eyes in awe of His love that was revealed to me that afternoon.

This is one of several episodes that were unquestionably beyond my reasoning that had occurred in the couple of months of reading the Word night and day learning of Him. There were nights that I would read and in my heart learn of His Holiness and my chest would collapse and suck for air through having been convicted. You know some like Elvisman would call me arrogant and prideful, but I can’t tell you how many tears have fallen from my eyes since the day I came to know Jesus Christ as the minister of God’s mercy to the world.

 

[Carlan]

I tested the Scriptures by confirming what they declared, that Jesus Christ was the Son of the Living God when I was twenty nine years old. On one of these days there was a lunar eclipse scheduled in the same afternoon. I had always wondered why the sun was darkened when Christ died and had a curiosity if the creation was revealing the answer. I prayed that He would show me His truth in the event. I then left my office and drove off to a quiet spot away from the city so that I could watch the eclipse hoping to learn something. I watched it come and I watched it go but nothing was revealed and drove back to work somewhat disappointed. I then came into my office and sat down reaching for a pen. That is when I noticed that in the center of the palm of my hand there was big spot stained by red ink. I then looked at my left palm and it also had been blotted red. And I tell you the truth that I then proceeded to remove my dress shirt and there on my side of my stomach was the stain of red ink. It was then I heard the voice that said that “My wisdom is in My mercy”. Tears ran from my eyes in awe of His love that was revealed to me that afternoon.

This is one of several episodes that were unquestionably beyond my reasoning that had occurred in the couple of months of reading the Word night and day learning of Him. There were nights that I would read and in my heart learn of His Holiness and my chest would collapse and suck for air through having been convicted. You know some like Elvisman would call me arrogant and prideful, but I can’t tell you how many tears have fallen from my eyes since the day I came to know Jesus Christ as the minister of God’s mercy to the world.

Yes , well Rock I believe sometimes God will speak in such a way to us. Only he knows why he does these things to bring us to our knees, get our attention. He knows what it takes for an individual. You have had a most dramatic conversion, we hear of many such experiences, yes, God knows what it takes for all of us.
I believe, too, for most it is a slow life long process starting when we first come into this world with Baptism and justification. My prayer for you is that you will continue in your search for all of God’s Truth as handed on down to us through Christ’s Apostles.God bless you, Carlan

 

[elvisman]

I tested the Scriptures by confirming what they declared, that Jesus Christ was the Son of the Living God when I was twenty nine years old. On one of these days there was a lunar eclipse scheduled in the same afternoon. I then left my office and drove off to a quiet spot away from the city so that I could watch the eclipse hoping to learn something. I watched it come and I watched it go but nothing was revealed and drove back to work somewhat disappointed. I then came into my office and sat down reaching for a pen. That is when I noticed that in the center of the palm of my hand there was big spot stained by red ink. I then looked at my left palm and it also had been blotted red. And I tell you the truth that I then proceeded to remove my dress shirt and there on my side of my stomach was the stain of red ink. It was then I heard the voice that said that “My wisdom is in My mercy”. Tears ran from my eyes in awe of His love that was revealed to me that afternoon.
There were nights that I would read and in my heart learn of His Holiness and my chest would collapse and suck for air through having been convicted. You know some like Elvisman would call me arrogant and prideful, but I can’t tell you how many tears have fallen from my eyes since the day I came to know Jesus Christ as the minister of God’s mercy to the world.

**I have never questioned your love for God - OR your sincerity. I have only questioned your **upbringing (poor catechesis) and your lack of understanding of God’s plan.

Yours is a classic, textbook case of the nominal Catholic with a really bad education (regarding the faith) who heard or read a “feel-good” message from somebody preaching a partial truth mixed with their own fabrications. Your parents dropped the “Covenantial ball” by not guiding you along with God’s help.
**I have seen this firsthand in my own family when 9 of my 12 siblings did EXACTLY that. The only difference is - their catechesis wasn’t all that bad - THEY were simply lazy Catholics who took the bait because it was easier than the alternative. **

**For the poorly-catechized Catholic - why *****wouldn’t *****they like the idea of OSAS, never having to go to church, never having to go to confession, etc? Who *****wouldn’t *****love the myth that the Bible is our sole authority and that we can ****ALL **have different interpretations and STILL be right?
This creates nothing but complete chaos and separation from the Body of Christ - not to mention a total perversion of his fervent prayer for the UNITY of hid Church (John 17).

**I have seen many of my siblings and others receive multiple baptisms whenever they switched denominations. This is a ****mockery **of the Sacrament - a mockery of Christ and the New Covenant.

The bottom line, my friend is this:
**You were regenerated at Baptism (Ezekiel 36:25, John 3:5, Romans 2:29, Col. 2:12-17, 1 Peter 3:21) whether you think so or not.**As for what happened to you later – God was calling you home, but you leaned on your own understanding instead of HIS (Proverbs 3:5-6).

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

Jesus knew what we truly needed was mercy and was the fulfillment of the Law. God has thrown out righteousness by the Commandment as the means and opted for salvation through His mercy alone.

False dichotomy. It is not either-or; it is both-and.

Matt 5:17-18

Him being the complete representation of God’s mercy lives forever more as the heavenly High Priest. The Commandment speaks of both judgment and mercy, judgment for those that work the law and mercy for those that rest in Christ’s work. In order for one to accept they first must be judged a sinner and unworthy of any merit towards heaven.

Judgement is for those who disobey the Law, not for those who follow the law. Christ’s atonement does not remove our obligation to follow the Ten Commandments, it does open the door to free us of our shame in realizing our disobedience. Christ gets the justice through His sacrifice, we get His mercy through our repentance & His love and forgiveness.

When Jesus heard the young ruler say “All these have I kept from my youth” He knew that the man was a liar and truth was not in him.

You care to show me in the bible where Jesus said or thought that the man was a liar? In fact it says in the passage(Luke 10) that Jesus “loved him.”

The Commandment had not produced in the heart of the young man the real intent. He hadn’t been judged by the righteousness of the Law and was still seeking to work them. Jesus doesn’t “further appeal” as you say but He clarifies what the Commandment was actually suppose to produce, a broken and contrite heart of one seeking mercy. For in the heart of one seeking mercy you have the recognition of others needing mercy as in the case of the Samaritan caring for the beaten man alongside the road. Jesus wasn’t commanding the rich man to sell all that He had so he could get to heaven but He was stressing to the rich man that had he followed the Commandments as they were intended to be understood, that he already would have been following Christ and asking for mercy rather than asking what He must still do to inherit internal life.

The Commandment was ordained to lead to love and mecry. The Bible doesn’t say “broken and contrite hearts are the fulfillment of the Law” does it? No, it says “Love is the fulfillment of the Law.”

I never said that Jesus was telling the man “to sell all that he had to get to heaven.” He was testing the man to take the extra step-to “give up all”- to be Jesus’ disciple. Hence the follow-up sayings of that "[29] Truly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or lands, for my sake and for the gospel, [30] who will not receive a hundredfold now in this time, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions, and in the age to come eternal life. "(Luke 10).

There is no more ladder to climb. Jesus is the ladder and by His grace He purges our sin from our desire and molds us into His likeness. We follow the call of the true Shepard and hear not the voice of any other. He is the head of the Church which is His Body, heart’s that are being made perfect, not through observance of sacraments, but perfect because He is perfect.

You just contradicted yourself. Either Jesus is the ladder and with His grace(sacraments, Mass, prayer) or He, the Ladder, does not exist for us to climb.

He is the Head of the Church-His Body-which is His physical manifestation in the world. He appointed men in His Church over which would wield His authority-shepherds in the Shepherd.

The sacraments are instruments through which Christ ordained to deliver His grace to men. We do not believe in the sacraments because of what that signify but because of what Christ promised that they would do(Matt 28; John 6; Rom 6; 1 Cor 10 & 11; Eph 5:26; 1 Pet 3:21; Titus 3:5). We are made perfect THROUGH the sacraments because that is what Christ wanted for us.

 

[Rocket_Man]

False dichotomy. It is not either-or; it is both-and.

Matt 5:17-18.

I’m sorry, but there is only God’s mercy for you. In the world. that is those without Christ, the Law still rules over men to bring sin to judgment and is the pathway to bring men to God’s mercy in Christ Jesus. The commandment was never meant nor is now a system for men to find themselves worthy before a Holy God. He had beforehand predestined mercy to His creation through His Son as the only means. Some of the old patriarchs who had heard through grace the real intent of the Law hoped for the coming of the promised deliverer and through this hope in God’s mercy they were purified. It was faith in the coming promise that saved, not ever by the working of the commandment. Most of Israel did not hear the Commandment and thought it was something that had to be worked to enter heaven. In their frustrations of being unable to do the Commandments, instead of turning to God for mercy, they began to invent new rituals to keep themselves Holy or changing the Laws to make them easier to do. They also used the law as a ladder that through doing the works of the Law to merit heaven they would look down and point fingers at sinners who fell to the lower steps. The laws intent was to make known that all fall short, not a measuring stick.

I find the Catholic system much of the same as those wanting to merit heaven through working the law. But now there is Christ Jesus instead of the blood of bulls for their safety device in the event they slip. Their dependence is on Christ mercy but only when they fall short otherwise they remain righteous. They work in and out of sin, judgment and mercy, repeatedly through out their life, hoping that they do not die with mortal sin. Counting that if their position is high enough on the ladder where only God knows the height then they might go to heaven. It’s a system of works righteousness as Israel had but only with Jesus blood instead of the sacrificial system in the old priesthood. Christ becomes an insurance policy and only needed if there’s a slip here or there.

As a Christian’s believer I am saved not by what I can do but for what Christ has already done. I am saved in hope of the promise. Not the promise to come like the old foresaw but the same promise that has now been fulfilled by Christ Jesus. I am shielded from the rigid requirements of the Law and the wrath it holds for those that do not except His mercy. The Law as a system has done it’s purpose and brought me to Christ. The Law is fulfilled in me because Christ having fulfilled the Law perfectly now lives in me. It is He that lives in me that transforms me to work the law. But the work I now do I work not because of some external code of meriting righteousness, but internal because He is Holy and as promised purges sin from my will to bring me into His likeness.

Judgement is for those who disobey the Law, not for those who follow the law. Christ’s atonement does not remove our obligation to follow the Ten Commandments, it does open the door to free us of our shame in realizing our disobedience. Christ gets the justice through His sacrifice, we get His mercy through our repentance & His love and forgiveness.

Judgment is for anyone who refuses to accept God’s mercy and who are still following the law in the attempt to merit God’s favor. Because He lives in Us, the Law has now gone internal working within us to make us perfect. The Commandment as an external code is dead to the Christian because we now married to Christ. Yet, in the world the Law reigns.

You care to show me in the bible where Jesus said or thought that the man was a liar? In fact it says in the passage(Luke 10) that Jesus “loved him.”

In Luke 10, it identified the man as a young teacher of the law. He was a teacher of the law but was still asking Christ what he “must do”. So you see then that the young man knew there was still something lacking in the law and looking for something else to work for glory. But Christ points him back to the Holy Commandment and clarifies the meaning of loving God perfectly. Christ loves sinners and liars too but they do not love him until they are judged by the perfect righteousness of the law and seeking mercy. One who isn’t looking for mercy can’t give mercy. He ended the talk with the the young teacher with this question.

36Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?

37And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

I’m sorry, but there is only God’s mercy for you. In the world. that is those without Christ, the Law still rules over men to bring sin to judgment and is the pathway to bring men to God’s mercy in Christ Jesus. The commandment was never meant nor is now a system for men to find themselves worthy before a Holy God. He had beforehand predestined mercy to His creation through His Son as the only means. Some of the old patriarchs who had heard through grace the real intent of the Law hoped for the coming of the promised deliverer and through this hope in God’s mercy they were purified. It was faith in the coming promise that saved, not ever by the working of the commandment. Most of Israel did not hear the Commandment and thought it was something that had to be worked to enter heaven. In their frustrations of being unable to do the Commandments, instead of turning to God for mercy, they began to invent new rituals to keep themselves Holy or changing the Laws to make them easier to do. They also used the law as a ladder that through doing the works of the Law to merit heaven they would look down and point fingers at sinners who fell to the lower steps. The laws intent was to make known that all fall short, not a measuring stick.

You have a terrible understanding not only of the Commandments but also of Sanctifying Grace and God’s nature.

The Commandments are not an arbitrary “system”; they stem dirctly from God’s eternal nature. They are true because God is Truth.

We can follow the commandments because by virtue of the sacraments we are filled with Sanctifying Grace(Divine Life). The Israelites did not have this because God did not send them the Holy Spirit until Pentecost.

Salvation as the mere “covering up” of sin is an unbiblical notion. God does not merely cover over our sin as with a blanket. Through Sanctifying Grace and adherence to the Law of Grace we are actually made perfect through this Grace.

And where in the Bible does Jesus command us only to “accept”? I do know of several places where He commands us to “do” as in “do this in remembrance of me”. How do you expalin this?

I find the Catholic system much of the same as those wanting to merit heaven through working the law. But now there is Christ Jesus instead of the blood of bulls for their safety device in the event they slip. Their dependence is on Christ mercy but only when they fall short otherwise they remain righteous. They work in and out of sin, judgment and mercy, repeatedly through out their life, hoping that they do not die with mortal sin. Counting that if their position is high enough on the ladder where only God knows the height then they might go to heaven. It’s a system of works righteousness as Israel had but only with Jesus blood instead of the sacrificial system in the old priesthood. Christ becomes an insurance policy and only needed if there’s a slip here or there.

You still show a terrible understanding of Catholic theology. If what you say is true no Catholic would ever attend another Mass beyond the Sacraments of initiation. To say that would be utterly absurd.

To assume that “Their dependence is on Christ mercy but only when they fall short otherwise they remain righteous” is begging the question, assuming that you know what is in the hearts of Catholics across the globe.

continued in the next post…

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

"RocketMan:

Christ becomes an insurance policy and only needed if there’s a slip here or there.

I hope you have something to back up such assertions. Quotes from the Catechism?

As a Christian’s believer I am saved not by what I can do but for what Christ has already done. I am saved in hope of the promise. Not the promise to come like the old foresaw but the same promise that has now been fulfilled by Christ Jesus. I am shielded from the rigid requirements of the Law and the wrath it holds for those that do not except His mercy. The Law as a system has done it’s purpose and brought me to Christ. The Law is fulfilled in me because Christ having fulfilled the Law perfectly now lives in me. It is He that lives in me that transforms me to work the law. But the work I now do I work not because of some external code of meriting righteousness, but internal because He is Holy and as promised purges sin from my will to bring me into His likeness.

So what happens when you fall, when you sin?

Judgment is for anyone who refuses to accept God’s mercy and who are still following the law in the attempt to merit God’s favor. Because He lives in Us, the Law has now gone internal working within us to make us perfect. The Commandment as an external code is dead to the Christian because we now married to Christ. Yet, in the world the Law reigns.

Still false dichotomy. There are not two sets of Ten Commandments and you are ignoring Matt 5:18. Grace is what works within us to conform us to Christ enabling us to be filled with the knowledge of God and His Law. Grace-the Holy Spirit is the divine help we receive to follow the Commandments. The problem is that we, as human vessels, we leak and unless we continually return to the Divine Font we will fall.

In Luke 10, it identified the man as a young teacher of the law. He was a teacher of the law but was still asking Christ what he “must do”. So you see then that the young man knew there was still something lacking in the law and looking for something else to work for glory. But Christ points him back to the Holy Commandment and clarifies the meaning of loving God perfectly. Christ loves sinners and liars too but they do not love him until they are judged by the perfect righteousness of the law and seeking mercy. One who isn’t looking for mercy can’t give mercy. He ended the talk with the the young teacher with this question.

36Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?

37And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise

Pardon me, I meant Mark 10.

But since it is essentially the same parable your assertion that Jesus claimed that the man was a liar has still to be proven…